Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[myprivatejack]

Very intriguing suggestion, MPJ!  I always look at that bridge and wonder whether there is any significance to it.  I've always found it interesting that THAT scene was shot with the bridge as as backdrop in order to suggest something. 

I would tend to agree with you.  The suggestion is that this is the conact-point with the outside world, and the isolation and distance of one world from the other is symbolized in part by the flimsy nature of the bridge, would you agree?

Yes,I'd agree,of course¡.Moreover,we see that the bridge is introduced not as a way to contact two worlds,but as a way to separate them.I mean,it's like a barrier that differentiates and almost isolates Ennis and Jack's world to all the rest,as you say;it's like a way of showing that both of them didn't get on well together...does this make sense?.

[tpe]

Yes,I'd agree,of course¡.Moreover,we see that the bridge is introduced not as a way to contact two worlds,but as a way to separate them.I mean,it's like a barrier that differentiates and almost isolates Ennis and Jack's world to all the rest,as you say;it's like a way of showing that both of them didn't get on well together...does this make sense?.

Interesting distuinction -- because we always think of a bridge as connecting two points.  But the flimsiness here suggests more of separataion or the divide, as you suggest.  It runs counter to the standard image of "bridging the gap" or "crossing the divide."

There is an intrinsic fear and some degree of risk crossing a flimsy bridge...

[myprivatejack]

Interesting distuinction -- because we always think of a bridge as connecting two points.  But the flimsiness here suggests more of separataion or the divide, as you suggest.  It runs counter to the standard image of "bridging the gap" or "crossing the divide."

There is an intrinsic fear and some degree of risk crossing a flimsy bridge...

Yes,as we see here that bridge as a barrier more than a connection between two points,from the perspective it has been filmed.As regards to the risk of crossing a bridge,I think it could be,because there was a certain danger in the "real" world for Ennis and Jack as they crossed that bridge and let their part,their world...As a matter of fact,their crossing would mean the end of their freedom and,to a certain extent,their love living as they used to...

[tpe]

I somehow got the impression that it was Ennis who crossed the bridge to meet with the Chilean, and not the other way around.  It suggests that the latter expected Ennis to meet him on his ground.  Or then again, it suggests an Ennis who wants to keep the BBM side inviolate -- free from interlopers...  I hope that this is not too much of a stretch.

[myprivatejack]

I somehow got the impression that it was Ennis who crossed the bridge to meet with the Chilean, and not the other way around.  It suggests that the latter expected Ennis to meet him on his ground.  Or then again, it suggests an Ennis who wants to keep the BBM side inviolate -- free from interlopers...  I hope that this is not too much of a stretch.

Yes,I also have this impression ¡ It'd suggest,as you say,that Ennis wanted their world free from "the other side" inferences; but also,could it mean that it was Ennis who wanted somehow to be inside this other world?...It's to say,the real one,the "normal" one?...As we see that Ennis is who has more difficulties in accepting their relationship and,consequently,who wants to be accepted as a "real2 man for society...

[tpe]

Yes,I also have this impression ¡ It'd suggest,as you say,that Ennis wanted their world free from "the other side" inferences; but also,could it mean that it was Ennis who wanted somehow to be inside this other world?...It's to say,the real one,the "normal" one?...As we see that Ennis is who has more difficulties in accepting their relationship and,consequently,who wants to be accepted as a "real2 man for society...

Ennis was someone who truly straddled 2 worlds, and was uncomfortable in both of them.  He certainly hankered for acceptance and integration in the "real" world, and yet knew deep in his heart that THAT was not to be.

[myprivatejack]

Ennis was someone who truly straddled 2 worlds, and was uncomfortable in both of them.  He certainly hankered for acceptance and integration in the "real" world, and yet knew deep in his heart that THAT was not to be.

Yes,exactly ¡ He was never fully comfortable in either both sides of the bridge;but the real and greater non-acceptance he had was about himself...

[tpe]

Yes,exactly ¡ He was never fully comfortable in either both sides of the bridge;but the real and greater non-acceptance he had was about himself...

The deleted scene where we see Jack squatting in the middle of a log bridge -- I wonder if that has a similar connotation?

[myprivatejack]

The deleted scene where we see Jack squatting in the middle of a log bridge -- I wonder if that has a similar connotation?

Yes,good point,Tomas¡    Jack is in the middle of a log bridge that is over the river,with the water passing-the lost opportunities,maybe?-,meanwhile he can be in the middle of crossing paths,without knowing which side get...Can he be thinking about which world-or side-was his?.

[tpe]

Yes,good point,Tomas¡    Jack is in the middle of a log bridge that is over the river,with the water passing-the lost opportunities,maybe?-,meanwhile he can be in the middle of crossing paths,without knowing which side get...Can he be thinking about which world-or side-was his?.

I had assumed that he was thinking then about Ennis -- but I had wondered if the setting of the log bridge had any significance.  It seems to lend itself to a deeper interpretation, no?  Yes, one can see it in terms of being "caught" in the middle of things, as the waters pass under him...

[myprivatejack]

I tend to believe that the fact that Jack while standing alone on the log bridge or Ennis talking with the shepperd under the bridge means that both of them had the feeling that they didn't belong completely to any of the two worlds:theirs in the mountain and the real world that was going to "welcome" when they went down from Brokeback.That,specially in Ennis case,they didn't feel at ease in any of the worlds; the BBM one because they knew it was going to be only an "impasse" of happiness before coming back to their daily duties and routine.And the real world because,obviously,they knew for sure that they weren't going to be the same in it,nor this same world was going to understand and let their love grow in a natural way.For this reason,these both horizontal bridges are like a gap they felt unable to pass without letting a great part of them in the path...

[tpe]

I tend to believe that the fact that Jack while standing alone on the log bridge or Ennis talking with the shepperd under the bridge means that both of them had the feeling that they didn't belong completely to any of the two worlds:theirs in the mountain and the real world that was going to "welcome" when they went down from Brokeback.That,specially in Ennis case,they didn't feel at ease in any of the worlds; the BBM one because they knew it was going to be only an "impasse" of happiness before coming back to their daily duties and routine.And the real world because,obviously,they knew for sure that they weren't going to be the same in it,nor this same world was going to understand and let their love grow in a natural way.For this reason,these both horizontal bridges are like a gap they felt unable to pass without letting a great part of them in the path...

Very interesting connection, MPJ.  It also occurs to me that the STREAM that the bridge crosses in each instance is also a potent symbol -- not only of separation, but also of the passing time.  We see a stream in many key scenes in the movie -- especially in the later scenes as they grow older.  The sound of the stream is clearly heard in the scene of the first reunion up in the mountains.  It is also prominent in the scene where Ennis and Jack argue and fight while washing dishes.

Of course, camping near a stream is expected.  But I also sense a double meaning in the symbol of flowing waters in each successively later scene.  It is significant that we see no such scene in the end.  This is hardly surprising, as Ennis probably never goes camping up the mountains by himself after Jack's death.  But it also seems to indicate to me that time had run out for the two of them. 

[myprivatejack]

Very interesting connection, MPJ.  It also occurs to me that the STREAM that the bridge crosses in each instance is also a potent symbol -- not only of separation, but also of the passing time.  We see a stream in many key scenes in the movie -- especially in the later scenes as they grow older.  The sound of the stream is clearly heard in the scene of the first reunion up in the mountains.  It is also prominent in the scene where Ennis and Jack argue and fight while washing dishes.

Of course, camping near a stream is expected.  But I also sense a double meaning in the symbol of flowing waters in each successively later scene.  It is significant that we see no such scene in the end.  This is hardly surprising, as Ennis probably never goes camping up the mountains by himself after Jack's death.  But it also seems to indicate to me that time had run out for the two of them. 

Yes,you're right;we can see water,but also fire in several of the scenes,specially between the both of them.Of course,as you say,is expected camping near a stream, the same that lighting a bonfire in the campside;but in this case,could it be like a representation of their own and different way of being?.Water and fire,the same than air and earth,means the elements that represents the way of react and behave of human beings; some are opponents,some other are complementaires,like ying and yang.like Ennis and Jack themselves...

Someone said once in the forum that(specially in the scene when Ennis tells Jack his traumatic childhood experience) that water runs from one to the other; and I'd add that this also happens in this scene when they argue near the river for Jack's wishes of a "sweet life together".It's like a strength,like something that joins them but at the same time,is able to separate them,like water can carry whatever you throw on it and separates it from you,does this make sense?.

And it's very interesting also what you say about water in their last encounters; I had never thought in that lack of water after Jack's death could perfectly mean that time had run out for the two of them...Thank you again for making me think it over¡.Yes,water doesn't run because time is over too,no?,there's already no future for them.Talking about time and water,haven't you noticed that,the younger they are,the quicker water seems to flow?And that,when they are older,they usually are into the water,as if they let themselves be carried for water,it's to say,for society's rules?.And that,in their last confrontation,water remains strangely quiet,like a premonition that their relationship is going nowhere,so nowhere that soon it would be over?.Wow,too many questions and too boring,I know,but it seems astonishing for me¡.

[myprivatejack]

The most boring Brokie in the forum attacks again¡  No,talking about time and water,I have thought too that  some persons had said as a BBM fault,that they spent too much time talking about their adventures in the mountain,detailing too much their daily duties and routines during a great part of the movie.And that,on the contrary,after their separation,time flies like an arrow,in such a way that sometimes we don't realise that four or five years have passed,what takes a little of rhythm away.It's to say,that three months in BBM when they're 19 lasts almost the same than 20 years of their lives...

I think that this could be also a double meaning,or at least,something that Ang Lee had looked for in a premeditated way; after their second night together,when we realise they have fallen in love,their time in BBM finishes quickly,as a way of telling us that happiness time is too short.And the same we could say about the rest of their years together;the older they are,the quicker their time together flies.Time never is quicker than when people are old,and on the contrary, so in Ennis and Jack case,maybe it's a way of showing that their happiness was as short as their opportunities of being together.I don't know if I have been able to express myself well enough...

[tpe]

Yes,you're right;we can see water,but also fire in several of the scenes,specially between the both of them.Of course,as you say,is expected camping near a stream, the same that lighting a bonfire in the campside;but in this case,could it be like a representation of their own and different way of being?.Water and fire,the same than air and earth,means the elements that represents the way of react and behave of human beings; some are opponents,some other are complementaires,like ying and yang.like Ennis and Jack themselves...

Someone said once in the forum that(specially in the scene when Ennis tells Jack his traumatic childhood experience) that water runs from one to the other; and I'd add that this also happens in this scene when they argue near the river for Jack's wishes of a "sweet life together".It's like a strength,like something that joins them but at the same time,is able to separate them,like water can carry whatever you throw on it and separates it from you,does this make sense?.

And it's very interesting also what you say about water in their last encounters; I had never thought in that lack of water after Jack's death could perfectly mean that time had run out for the two of them...Thank you again for making me think it over¡.Yes,water doesn't run because time is over too,no?,there's already no future for them.Talking about time and water,haven't you noticed that,the younger they are,the quicker water seems to flow?And that,when they are older,they usually are into the water,as if they let themselves be carried for water,it's to say,for society's rules?.And that,in their last confrontation,water remains strangely quiet,like a premonition that their relationship is going nowhere,so nowhere that soon it would be over?.Wow,too many questions and too boring,I know,but it seems astonishing for me¡.

Well, since you brought up the image of campfires, I have always thought that 3 such scenes are somehow related:

- The campfire scene whenEnnis comes back from the bear incident.

- The campfire scene during the first reunion.

- The camfire scene before the Last Confrontation.


I think the placement of these scenes -- in the beginning, middle, and late periods of their relationship, are somehow linked.  I think of all sorts of meanings relating the 3 scenes.  They just don't establish critical junctures, IMO.  I somehow think that the fire somehow signifies their love, and that the coldness in the last scene indicates a terminal point in the relationship...

[tpe]

The most boring Brokie in the forum attacks again¡  No,talking about time and water,I have thought too that  some persons had said as a BBM fault,that they spent too much time talking about their adventures in the mountain,detailing too much their daily duties and routines during a great part of the movie.And that,on the contrary,after their separation,time flies like an arrow,in such a way that sometimes we don't realise that four or five years have passed,what takes a little of rhythm away.It's to say,that three months in BBM when they're 19 lasts almost the same than 20 years of their lives...

I think that this could be also a double meaning,or at least,something that Ang Lee had looked for in a premeditated way; after their second night together,when we realise they have fallen in love,their time in BBM finishes quickly,as a way of telling us that happiness time is too short.And the same we could say about the rest of their years together;the older they are,the quicker their time together flies.Time never is quicker than when people are old,and on the contrary, so in Ennis and Jack case,maybe it's a way of showing that their happiness was as short as their opportunities of being together.I don't know if I have been able to express myself well enough...

I sensed the same thing.  The fleeting nature of happiness is a resounding theme, IMO. It connects this discussion to the one about Buddhism, I think.  Have you had a chance to read all the posts in that thread?  Very heavy at times, but quite beatiful, IMO. 

[atalley]

Very good points that I've never thought of before, MPJ...

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to the role of the four elements in some scenes,and seeing that I talked about the water that runs from one to the other...;in SNIT there's fire between them when they kiss and in the scene Ennis talks about his traumatic experience in childhood,water.The first example doesn't need any explanations,and as regards to the second,it could be a way to show the empathy that Jack feels about Ennis by seeing he's so hurt and shocked by this tragic memory.
Also a way to show that their relationship is alive-water is a sign of life-and that love flows from one another in the zenith of their happinness and youth.It's similar to what we said in some posts over this one,about how the younger they are,the quicker water runs;they are then the most similar too to their times in BBM,so water is like a strength that passes from Jack to Ennis,and viceversa.What's your opinion?

[tpe]

Coming back to the role of the four elements in some scenes,and seeing that I talked about the water that runs from one to the other...;in SNIT there's fire between them when they kiss and in the scene Ennis talks about his traumatic experience in childhood,water.The first example doesn't need any explanations,and as regards to the second,it could be a way to show the empathy that Jack feels about Ennis by seeing he's so hurt and shocked by this tragic memory.
Also a way to show that their relationship is alive-water is a sign of life-and that love flows from one another in the zenith of their happinness and youth.It's similar to what we said in some posts over this one,about how the younger they are,the quicker water runs;they are then the most similar too to their times in BBM,so water is like a strength that passes from Jack to Ennis,and viceversa.What's your opinion?

We also get a feel of thr various stages in their relationship through images of fire and water.  We see them weary and wary as they cross a stream later in life.  We see them by a weakening fire in the scene right before the Last Confrontation. 

[myprivatejack]

We also get a feel of thr various stages in their relationship through images of fire and water.  We see them weary and wary as they cross a stream later in life.  We see them by a weakening fire in the scene right before the Last Confrontation. 

That's right¡ Thank you,Thomas¡ It's the same than we talked about the quiet water in the end of their relationship,do you remember?...Fire(maybe their passion?)is weakening just before something that will mark an after and a before in this relationship.I think is quite moving and sage the way Ang uses the elements to illustrate their story...

[tpe]

That's right¡ Thank you,Thomas¡ It's the same than we talked about the quiet water in the end of their relationship,do you remember?...Fire(maybe their passion?)is weakening just before something that will mark an after and a before in this relationship.I think is quite moving and sage the way Ang uses the elements to illustrate their story...

I do think that the use of such images was deliberate, and seems to make a connection between what is elemental in both the natural world and human nature. 

[athena0204]

I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others.  Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.

[tpe]

I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others.  Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.

Yes, the BBM poster was indeed modeled after the one for Titanic.  Though it is an image rather than a line from the ss/movie, it does try to bring up the image of timeless love by direct association...

[athena0204]

I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.

[myprivatejack]

I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.

Yes,you're right;and I have sometimes have this feeling too...IMO Ennis,insecure as he was,felt always that their love was something always to recover,to heal,to maintain and to grow,like an never-ending context-to call it in some way...-.He was never sure of this love because he was never sure of deserving it;even if I have always thought too that the fact that Jack had leave him would have been a kind of relief for him somehow.

[FlwrChild]

Beautifully said Athena. 


MPJ, I agree with you both that Ennis probably never thought he deserved Jack's love. He just didn't see himself as special enough to warrant that kind of lifelong devotion. But even though Jack leaving him might give him relief in one way (not having to deal with that side of himself and juggle two worlds at one time) or even two (not having to try to live up to that love), it would have crushed him at the same time. Once they'd fallen for each other, their fates were inexorably tied to each other. As much as their situation pained them both, one of them losing the other would have been the ultimate devastation. As Ennis found out only too well. 

[lancecowboy]

I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others.  Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.

Wow, I just found the recent additions to this thread, and it's amazing. That's a really good parallel to draw between the two movies. I never really liked Titanic for some reason, perhaps because I never connected with Rose (for obvious reasons) nor Jack Dawson, either. Although I admired his talents and tenacity, there was never the resonance that I had with Ennis. Your pointing the similarities between the two set of lovers made sense. I will have to watch Titanic again with fresh eyes. 

[lancecowboy]

I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.

I think you are right. I suspect that is a common feeling among those who have low self-esteem from a childhood of neglect and missing out on being loved. Ennis was definitely unaware of the love that Cassie had for him, until in the diner, then it dawned on him that he was loved, he was worthy of love, and that he was unaware of being loved. That's the turning point, in my opinion, when he felt lighter, and happier, sending off the post card to Jack (notice the uncharacteristic wordiness of it), and even on that sunny day, light stepping into the post office to retrieve his mail. It was the roller-coaster ride of feeling loved, and losing love, so close together that made it so painful, and what Heath so masterfully portrayed.

The culmination of Ennis' discovery that he was worthy of love was, of course, his discovery of the two shirts, the confirmation that for twenty years, he had been loved and never really knew it, this thing with no reins, that he only felt, but could not articulate.

[athena0204]

Beautifully said Athena. 


MPJ, I agree with you both that Ennis probably never thought he deserved Jack's love. He just didn't see himself as special enough to warrant that kind of lifelong devotion. But even though Jack leaving him might give him relief in one way (not having to deal with that side of himself and juggle two worlds at one time) or even two (not having to try to live up to that love), it would have crushed him at the same time. Once they'd fallen for each other, their fates were inexorably tied to each other. As much as their situation pained them both, one of them losing the other would have been the ultimate devastation. As Ennis found out only too well. 

Yes, I don't believe that Ennis would have felt any relief if Jack left him. He would be completely devastated and would crumble. Ennis spoke out of frustration just like Jack did when he told him he wished he could quit him. Neither one really meant those things, what they meant is something entirely different. Ennis had quit jobs and scheduled his life to be around Jack, because Jack was all that mattered to him. That definitely showed that he could never imagine his life without Jack. And all that time, he was only living for those few weeks a year. The rest of the time, he just had the memories of the previous times and the anticipation of the next ones, as well as his thoughts of what he felt for Jack and what Jack felt for him. At the end of that last trip, they looked back and realized how much pain and sadness they had in their lives being apart for all that time, only feeling alive a few times a year. I feel that Ennis sometimes thought he was not worthy of Jack's love, or how could anyone love him like that, and why. It was something he never thought could happen to him, but in the summer of 1963 it did, and once true love begins it is eternal. He had found something wonderful, but had to be miserable because of his fear. He kept his relationship with Jack a secret because that was the safe way. And in the end, he had to live the rest of his life without Jack.

[FlwrChild]

"Ennis spoke out of frustration just like Jack did when he told him he wished he could quit him. Neither one really meant those things, what they meant is something entirely different."

Agreed.