Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 405028 times)

tpe · « **Reply #690 on:** Sep 21, 2009, 07:34 AM »

Quote from: Athena on Sep 18, 2009, 09:27 PM

I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.

Oh wow. Thsi makes perfect sense to me...

atalley · « **Reply #691 on:** Oct 01, 2009, 06:00 PM »

Quote from: Athena on Sep 18, 2009, 09:27 PM

I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.

Now you've gone & done it....

myprivatejack · « **Reply #692 on:** Oct 21, 2009, 12:23 PM »

Sometimes we have talked about both of them clothings color;they usually wear in earth and air colors,as a reflect of their respective personalities(it's to say,brown and white in Ennis,blue and black in Jack). And also about how these colors in clothings change in Ennis case,almost always when Jack is not by his side (for example,in the conversation with Cassie scene)..Only there's an scene where he wears also in blue when Jack is with him; in the scene of the argument by the river.And even we could say that he's more "in Jack's style"then,because he tries to show his innest fears and thoughts before his lover,maybe for the first and last time.So,is he nearest to Jack then,not only in a physical,but also moral sense of the word?.
There's also an scene where colors meaning plays an important role in the story;the one in Twists home.Everything is in blue or grey,from the house itself to the walls,specially in Jack's room.Mrs.Twist wears a blue jacket and a grey apron,her eyes are blue,but warm and compassionate in comparison with Old Man Twist icy blue eyes;even Ennis wears again in grey and blue,maybe because now Jack is not by the side,this time forever.
In painting,they say that blue is sorrow color and even teachers advice to put a blue shade before painting the rest of the colors if we want to represent sorrow and loss.I think in these last and terribly painful BBM scenes,these feelings are all over the environment,so Ang Lee didn't choose these colors without thinking on their meaning.

tpe · « **Reply #693 on:** Oct 22, 2009, 07:17 AM »

Interesting comment about the role and symbolism of colors in the scene in LF. Even in the scene outside the house, the greens are muted by what seems like the colors of fall or early spring -- more browns, light straw colors: the color of dead things. Set againt the drab color of the house and the blue of the sky, the overall effect is mournful...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #694 on:** Oct 22, 2009, 11:26 AM »

And interesting comment too yours about the color of earth in this scene;really,they're the ones from fall,the season when everything prepares for winter,for the death of nature somehow.It's as if the land that had seen Jack be born,wanted to tell him goodbye with its most mournful and sad shades...And at the same time,it's like the triomph of who have their foot on earth over these ones who believe that something can be changed,like Jack did,don't you think so?.

tpe · « **Reply #695 on:** Oct 26, 2009, 07:56 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Oct 22, 2009, 11:26 AM

And interesting comment too yours about the color of earth in this scene;really,they're the ones from fall,the season when everything prepares for winter,for the death of nature somehow.It's as if the land that had seen Jack be born,wanted to tell him goodbye with its most mournful and sad shades...And at the same time,it's like the triomph of who have their foot on earth over these ones who believe that something can be changed,like Jack did,don't you think so?.

I think the who sequence of scenes in LF are some of the saddest and most intense scenes in the entire movie, and not just because of the action, but everything that surrounds it: the colors, the music, the austerity in both props and emotions. If there is a mental picture of sadness and mourning, it would be these scenes.

perarduaadastra · « **Reply #696 on:** Nov 09, 2009, 11:09 PM »

This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.

ethan · « **Reply #697 on:** Nov 09, 2009, 11:57 PM »

Quote from: perarduaadastra on Nov 09, 2009, 11:09 PM

This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.

perarduaadastra, your take on the "stick with beans" is spot on. That is how I see it too. Thanks for sharing it.

They did end up not killing sheep but an elk. I do like the compromise.

tpe · « **Reply #698 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 08:25 AM »

Quote from: ethan on Nov 09, 2009, 11:57 PM

perarduaadastra, your take on the "stick with beans" is spot on. That is how I see it too. Thanks for sharing it.

They did end up not killing sheep but an elk. I do like the compromise.

I second. Thanks perarduaadastra. I think that this indeed encapsulates a lot of what it truly good and truly difficult in their relationship: Jack sort of pushing Ennis out of complacency, and Ennis going outside his comfort zone for the sake of Jack.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #699 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 12:25 PM »

Quote from: perarduaadastra on Nov 09, 2009, 11:09 PM

This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.

Quote from: tpe on Nov 10, 2009, 08:25 AM

I second. Thanks perarduaadastra. I think that this indeed encapsulates a lot of what it truly good and truly difficult in their relationship: Jack sort of pushing Ennis out of complacency, and Ennis going outside his comfort zone for the sake of Jack.

Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡

I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.

ethan · « **Reply #700 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 03:09 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 10, 2009, 12:25 PM

Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡ I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.

MPJ, well said. Thanks. I love your explanation of how their relationship evolves. I even adore when Ennis stepped up to shoot the elk after being tired of Jack's dumba** missing.

perarduaadastra · « **Reply #701 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 05:34 PM »

Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.
The" beans, mutton,or elk " scenes however to me form a pivotal point in the film, no doubt about it.
Things can be sorted out, a compromise can work, we can be friends, let's go for it.
If the film were a symphony this would be a key change and start of the development section.

vedrana · « **Reply #702 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 07:00 PM »

I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.

Here's the link. Enjoy!

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68

ethan · « **Reply #703 on:** Nov 10, 2009, 10:20 PM »

Quote from: perarduaadastra on Nov 10, 2009, 05:34 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.

No disrespect at all. Glad you enjoy reading them and feel free to share your views on some of those you thought to be very tenuous. After all, this is a discussion forum of BBM.

Quote from: loreen on Nov 10, 2009, 07:00 PM

I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.

Here's the link. Enjoy!

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68

loreen, thanks for passing the link. Do you know who did the narration? Can you please provide credits if any? Thanks!

vedrana · « **Reply #704 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 01:30 AM »

Hey, Ethan!

Glad you like it. Well, the member who posted this link said that it's foreverinawe's presentation.

That's all I know.

tpe · « **Reply #705 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 08:19 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 10, 2009, 12:25 PM

Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡ I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.

In a sense, one can easily mistake Ennis's attitude as being a push-over. He certainly wasn't. He was a push-over for Jack -- except for that one last thing that he withheld out of fear...

tpe · « **Reply #706 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 08:22 AM »

Quote from: perarduaadastra on Nov 10, 2009, 05:34 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.
The" beans, mutton,or elk " scenes however to me form a pivotal point in the film, no doubt about it.
Things can be sorted out, a compromise can work, we can be friends, let's go for it.
If the film were a symphony this would be a key change and start of the development section.

Very nice metaphor.

Indeed, some suggestions may strike us as a bit tenuous, but I guess that's part of what makes this interesting -- sort of getting blindsided by something we never really considered and examining why we didn't or choose not to...

tpe · « **Reply #707 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 08:22 AM »

Quote from: loreen on Nov 10, 2009, 07:00 PM

I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.

Here's the link. Enjoy!

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68

Thanks loreen.

I'll have to see this after work!

myprivatejack · « **Reply #708 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 10:26 AM »

Quote from: loreen on Nov 10, 2009, 07:00 PM

I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.

Here's the link. Enjoy!

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68

I'm so sorry for the third time,but I cannot watch this link...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #709 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 10:30 AM »

Quote from: ethan on Nov 10, 2009, 03:09 PM

MPJ, well said. Thanks. I love your explanation of how their relationship evolves. I even adore when Ennis stepped up to shoot the elk after being tired of Jack's dumba** missing.

Thanks to you ¡ Yes,I also adore how "forced" is Ennis to do things such as shooting the elk,for pleasing Jack...I think he loved to be tired ¡

vedrana · « **Reply #710 on:** Nov 11, 2009, 11:56 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 11, 2009, 10:26 AM

I'm so sorry for the third time,but I cannot watch this link...

Oh, but it shouldn't be the problem. You have to download it. It takes 7 minutes for downloading and it is really special thing to see!!! Please, try again!

OMG, I tried now and it really said it's error.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #711 on:** Nov 25, 2009, 10:56 AM »

Some persons has said that the fact that Jack is totally naked while washing the clothings after FNIT is a kind of purification for his "sins".Because,they declare,he could be washing them with his clothings,maybe with roll up trousers for not dunk them,but there was no need to be naked...So,they suppose it's a purification of his whole body and soul because somehow he felt also kind of guilty for what had happenned the night before.What's your opinion?.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #712 on:** Dec 01, 2009, 12:41 AM »

Hmm, I never saw it that way.

First, I think when you only have a couple changes of clothes it's natural to wash them all at the same time and therefore do it naked. Especially when you know there's no one around for miles.

And second, I don't think there was ever anything in either the short story or the movie to indicate that Jack felt guilty about FNIT. I think his "See you for supper" was guardedly hopeful and his posture on the hill during the "I'm not queer" conversation was tentative and careful. I always believed that he said "Me neither" either because he truly didn't think of them as queer or not queer or anything in between but simply as 'them' in their own unique situation, or because he knew that was what Ennis needed to hear, regardless of what Jack himself might have thought on that subject.

It doesn't mean those other people are wrong though. This is just the way that I see it.

tpe · « **Reply #713 on:** Dec 09, 2009, 09:25 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Nov 25, 2009, 10:56 AM

Some persons has said that the fact that Jack is totally naked while washing the clothings after FNIT is a kind of purification for his "sins".Because,they declare,he could be washing them with his clothings,maybe with roll up trousers for not dunk them,but there was no need to be naked...So,they suppose it's a purification of his whole body and soul because somehow he felt also kind of guilty for what had happenned the night before.What's your opinion?.

Interesting. I interpret it more like this: at this point, he has "exposed" himself to Ennis, and become vulnerable -- naked, in the metaphorical sense...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #714 on:** Dec 10, 2009, 06:31 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 09, 2009, 09:25 PM

Interesting. I interpret it more like this: at this point, he has "exposed" himself to Ennis, and become vulnerable -- naked, in the metaphorical sense...

He has exposed himself both in body and soul,specially in soul;now,Ennis knows what and how he feels for him,so it's a way of showing all his weaknesses.However,he also knows at that point Ennis',who has also showed himself in his innest feelings...

brokebacksoul · « **Reply #715 on:** Dec 17, 2009, 04:54 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 22, 2006, 11:20 AM

I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis. I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics. It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity. Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.

To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me. But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.

..... Reading this thread I just stumbled across THIS .... that's how I see it, too. OT of the "double meanings" but THIS point has always been and certainly will always be the most tragic one for me ... even more than Jacks death itself. There will always be the aspect (unlikely but it can't be denied IMO) that Jacks love for Ennis died (we all don't want to believe that, of course

). Now that Ennis knows about Jacks plans to move to Lightning Flat with Randall, he can't be sure whether Jake would have dropped their next meeting - IMO. He (and we) will never know ... and that's what makes the whole story indescribably painful. If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Sorry for being OT again but I couldn't hold back after reading tpes comment. It always strikes when I read about this point

tpe · « **Reply #716 on:** Dec 17, 2009, 07:36 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Dec 10, 2009, 06:31 AM

He has exposed himself both in body and soul,specially in soul;now,Ennis knows what and how he feels for him,so it's a way of showing all his weaknesses.However,he also knows at that point Ennis',who has also showed himself in his innest feelings...

I guess one can also read some meaning into the washing and beating of clothes...

tpe · « **Reply #717 on:** Dec 17, 2009, 07:40 PM »

I am sorry, BBS if the comment raised some uncomfortable/unpleasant possibilities in your mind. And yes, the uncertainty in the last meeting hangs on Ennis's head like the proverbial sword, with the sharp, cutting edge of memory.

Quote from: brokebacksoul on Dec 17, 2009, 04:54 PM

..... Reading this thread I just stumbled across THIS .... that's how I see it, too. OT of the "double meanings" but THIS point has always been and certainly will always be the most tragic one for me ... even more than Jacks death itself. There will always be the aspect (unlikely but it can't be denied IMO) that Jacks love for Ennis died (we all don't want to believe that, of course ). Now that Ennis knows about Jacks plans to move to Lightning Flat with Randall, he can't be sure whether Jake would have dropped their next meeting - IMO. He (and we) will never know ... and that's what makes the whole story indescribably painful. If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it
Sorry for being OT again but I couldn't hold back after reading tpes comment. It always strikes when I read about this point

brokebacksoul · « **Reply #718 on:** Dec 18, 2009, 01:21 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 17, 2009, 07:40 PM

I am sorry, BBS if the comment raised some uncomfortable/unpleasant possibilities in your mind. And yes, the uncertainty in the last meeting hangs on Ennis's head like the proverbial sword, with the sharp, cutting edge of memory.

.. oh yes...

....but no, tpe

, it was not your comment that raised that uncomfortable possibility in my mind (Or did I get you wrong here - in that case I apologize;-) - It was one of my first thoughts after watching the film and I said in in one of my first posts here in the forum.... I was just reminded of this sad point. And I add: If we consider the possibility of Jacks love that ended we would indeed have a double meaning - Jacks physical death and the "death" of his love for Ennis ... -- but

, I/we don't want to follow up this thought any further, don't we

?

myprivatejack · « **Reply #719 on:** Dec 18, 2009, 11:49 AM »

Anyhow,this is a thought we won't ever know for sure,maybe luckily...However,I'd add that a part of Jack had died before his physical death and,maybe,the beginning of the end of his love for Ennis.(in this case,we could join it with the thread about Jack's self destructive tendences).It was October or November,when earth prepares for winter and everything seems to die,when Jack felt more lonely before his death; a mere coincidence?...

Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 405028 times)

vedrana

vedrana

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