Topic: Flashback scene - spoiler

[Mars]

As much as I understand why you describe the similar shot of Jack watching Ennis leave for the final time as the moment "he begins to let Ennis go", I don't think I can accept that Jack ever let Ennis go.  Not really, not deep down in his heart.  I think if he hadnt been killed, he would have met Ennis again in November, like Ennis wanted him to.  They were two souls connected, and no matter how hard Ennis tried to push Jack away from him, Jack would always be there for Ennis.

Well, Christie, when people make a statement of belief as you have they usually have seen or read or heard something that makes them believe what they do. I would be very interested in knowing what it is you saw, read or heard that makes you believe Jack did not let Ennis go.

I am of the other opinion, and here is why.

It seems Jack is always the aggressor in looking for men. He was with Ennis up on Brokeback, he took Ennis' hand and put it on himself. He was with Bozo the Clown, he approached the clown and gave him the smile and wink. He was with the Mexican in Mexico.  Only once was Jack approached by another man and that was Randall.  I would like you to go back and look at the scene where Jack and Randall are siting outside of the club. Jack starts to feel Randall out when suddenly Randall comes on to Jack with the cabin, fishing, whiskey and boat talk. The camera goes to a shot of Jack sitting there in amazement that someone is coming on to him. This is the shot I want you to look at particularly carefully, the amazement on Jack's face. So, Jack and randall hook up.

Then we have the scene where Jack tells Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much he can hardly stand it. What does Ennis do, nothing. He just sits there and looks into the fire. No support what so ever for Jack.

Then the final argument between Jack and Ennis. Ennis tells Jack it is going to be three months longer than expected before they can be together again. "This is a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation", Jack replies. Jack says, "Never enough time. Never enough." Jack knows his dream with Ennis is not going to be and in fact things are getting worse. "You use to come away easy. Now it is like seeing the Pope."  Ennis tells Jack he has to work.  The argument intensifies until finally Jack says, "I wish I knew how to quit you."  To which a tearful Ennis retorts, "Well why don't you then. It is because of you Jack that I am like this. I'm nothing, I'm nowhere." Jack tries to comfort Ennis and Ennis says, "I can't stand this any more Jack." Jack knows this past twenty years have been rough on Ennis. He has quit jobs and has lived in poverty just so they could be together whenever they could. But Ennis isn't willing to quit jobs any more. He has child support payments to make.

So, we see Jack remembering a very special time in their relationship when everything seemed perfect. "...that dozy embrace solidified in this memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives." The cameras switches from the face of a man in love to the face of a man sadly resigned to the fact his dream with Ennis will never happen and he must let Ennis go for both their sakes.

Jack changes his dream of the sweet life with Ennis to a sweet life with Randall and goes to Lightening Flats and tells his family so. Would Jack always love Ennis? I think so. I don't think you ever forget the first person you ever loved. I know I haven't, even though he was straight and use to beat me up two or three times a week. But Jack needed to be loved, held, kissed and caressed and he needed it more than once or twice a year for a week. That was never going to happen with Ennis. So Jack let Ennis go and tried to make a life with Randall, and died because of it.

Wonderful and lucid analysis,Patriot!
I entirely share your opinion, my dear.

[keren_b]

George, do you think Jack loved Randall? what do you think Jack would've done if he was with Randall and would get a postcard from Ennis saying he wants to meet with him?

I feel like Jack would not be able to say no to Ennis... and he will always be number one in his heart. I can't point to something specific I saw or heard that makes me think that, it's just something that I feel strongly inside. maybe it's just my wishfull thinking, because I want them so much to be together...

[NoReins]

Patriot1, you make some very valid points there, and I can see why a lot of people believe that Jack did quit Ennis, but, as I said above, I'm in the other camp and always will be. My belief stems in the most part from the line "I wish I knew how to quit you"....not "I'm quitting you" but "I wish I knew..." or to put it another way "I can't quit you because I don't know how". Yes, they've said a lot of hurtful things in that scene....and yes, I think maybe Jack thinks it would be better all round if he could go after that sweet life with someone else....but at the end of the day, it wouldn't be a sweet life with anyone else because most of what would make it so sweet would be being with Ennis.

As to why Jack told his folks about Randall (or about someone else, anyway) I think he did it out of anger, much the same as why he went to Mexico after Ennis's divorce. Who knows, maybe he was even goaded into it by his father - he's obviously mentioned Ennis often enough in the past and there has to be a pretty big chance that his father would have asked whether Ennis was ever going to come up to Lightning Flat. With the way he's feeling at that point, Jack likely would have snapped and said that he was going to bring someone else up instead....maybe meaning it (at least until he thinks about it in the cold light of day) or maybe not.

At the end of the day, though, I am 100% convinced that, had Jack lived, he would have met up with Ennis in November. He couldn't walk away after the confrontation - going to Ennis to hold him and comfort him when Ennis breaks down because he can't stand to see the man he loves in pain - and he couldn't have ignored the card Ennis sent. Maybe things between them would have been more difficult, but he'd have been there, I'm sure of it.

[lamusica]

I'm with you, keren.  In the book, Annie wrote that after their argument when Ennis broke down, Jack grabbed him and they torqued it up to where it had been.  To me, that means, after their last embrace, everything was just the way it had been before.  If Jack was through with Ennis, Annie would not have written that phrase.  I also think it takes away from the total meaning of their love to think that Jack was really done with Ennis.  If that had really been the case, he would have left Ennis kneeling in the dirt, crying and walked away.  Of course, this is just my opinion, but I don't need "proof" to believe that their love was not one that would break after one let-it-all-out argument.  If love can't weather such situations, it isn't really love to begin with.  Any relationship between two peo-ple has to be analyzed and allow the air to be cleared from time to time.

[Patriot1]

George, do you think Jack loved Randall? what do you think Jack would've done if he was with Randall and would get a postcard from Ennis saying he wants to meet with him?

I feel like Jack would not be able to say no to Ennis... and he will always be number one in his heart. I can't point to something specific I saw or heard that makes me think that, it's just something that I feel strongly inside. maybe it's just my wishfull thinking, because I want them so much to be together...

Did Jack love Randall at the time of the final argument? I don't know. If he did, he didn't love him as he loved Ennis. Could he love Randall as he loved Ennis? There is nothing in the movie or story to tell us or to even give us a clue. I have no personal experience to base an answer on.  But, I do know I will never forget the first person I loved no matter who I fall in love with now.

Once Jack decides to let Ennis go it is all speculation. There are a number of ways Jack could have handled the post card from Ennis. One of them is to say that November is out because he had to go to a farm machine convention or something. To keep putting Ennis off until that fateful day he would have to face Ennis and tell him the truth.

But, we know he will never have to face that day.  :'(

Wishful thinking keren_b. Yah, me too. Perhaps that is why I like Human Interest and Two Crows Joy so much. Our two boys, now men, in love, together and happy.

[Patriot1]

Patriot1, you make some very valid points there, and I can see why a lot of people believe that Jack did quit Ennis, but, as I said above, I'm in the other camp and always will be. My belief stems in the most part from the line "I wish I knew how to quit you"....not "I'm quitting you" but "I wish I knew..." or to put it another way "I can't quit you because I don't know how". Yes, they've said a lot of hurtful things in that scene....and yes, I think maybe Jack thinks it would be better all round if he could go after that sweet life with someone else....but at the end of the day, it wouldn't be a sweet life with anyone else because most of what would make it so sweet would be being with Ennis.

NoReins, "I wish I knew how to quit you." is just like saying I wish I knew how to stop loving you. I wish I knew how to stop loving the first person I fell in love with also. Forty-three years later the pain is still there. But I have to get on with my life. My sweet life with Stephen will never be, he is straight for one thing. Jack's Sweet life with Ennis will never be. Time to move on with a piece of your heart missing because the other person has it. But move on you must.

As for the rest of your post, well, it is like you said, we are in different camps.

[aintfoolin]

On the last trip together Jack asks Ennis : after all this time could he find someone else to marry? " Then he makes up some story about sleeping with the wife of a ranch foreman ( Randall) . This shows that Jack still has Randall on the side at this point,so Maybe Jack was thinking about quittin Ennis, Not actually doing it but definitly thinkin about it. Jack was not being straightforward with Ennis. He also never told Ennis that Aguirre saw them up on Brokeback.Why is this ? To keep Ennis from going ballistic or what?

[Tom]

After watching this movie again, it is amazing how clever Ang Lee is. When I watched the movie when it came to the scene were Ennis is pacing and smoking and waiting and then the reunion kiss.

After it was over and I had calmed my racing heart down, I thought (then) why is Ennis acting like this when he was so guarded and seemingly indifferent when they first come down from the mountain to Jack's looks and pleas to come back the next year. We had seen them have sex, lark about, even make love...but nothing said Ennis loved Jack at that point in the movie.

The passion of those kisses and the gentleness of the head nuzzles at the reunion said something totally different to me. It said to me Ennis wanted Jack more than anything. Not just sexually but totally. I couldn't get it though (as much as I loved it).

It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.

I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.

[frances]

Time to move on with a piece of your heart missing because the other person has it. But move on you must.

I second that. My “let Ennis go” doesn’t mean “stop loving.”  It means “let be.”


This is the monstruosity in love,
that the will is infinite and the execution confined,
that the desire is boundless and the act a slave to limit.

(Shakespeare)

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

1It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.

I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.

Tom, I must agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.  Early on I wondered when Ennis's feelings for Jack had grown to something more than friendship, that included sex.  When they reunite after 4 years, the passion of their meeting really hits the viewer.  We think "wow! he really did miss Jack! Maybe he did actually love Jack."  The flashback scene confirms that Ennis's feelings for Jack were quite strong prior to their first parting.  That type of tenderness is rarely exhibited by anyone who doesn't possess strong feelings. Ennis is cuddling Jack and humming/singing in his ear.  He may have had questions regarding his own sexuality, but one thing is for certain...he was displaying heart felt affection for Jack.

OK. Where are my tissues?  :\'(   :\'(

[NoReins]

1It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.

I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.

Tom, I must agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.  Early on I wondered when Ennis's feelings for Jack had grown to something more than friendship, that included sex.  When they reunite after 4 years, the passion of their meeting really hits the viewer.  We think "wow! he really did miss Jack! Maybe he did actually love Jack."  The flashback scene confirms that Ennis's feelings for Jack were quite strong prior to their parting.  That type of tenderness is rarely exhibited by anyone who doesn't possess strong feelings. Ennis is cuddling Jack and humming/singing in his ear.  He may have had questions regarding his own sexuality, but one thing is for certain...he was displaying heart felt affection for Jack.

OK. Where are my tissues? :'( :'(

I think you're right in a way, but I also think that Ennis's feelings for Jack were obvious before they left the mountain...shown by the way he reacts to them being brought down early.

[tpe]

Jack changes his dream of the sweet life with Ennis to a sweet life with Randall and goes to Lightening Flats and tells his family so. Would Jack always love Ennis? I think so. I don't think you ever forget the first person you ever loved. I know I haven't, even though he was straight and use to beat me up two or three times a week. But Jack needed to be loved, held, kissed and caressed and he needed it more than once or twice a year for a week. That was never going to happen with Ennis. So Jack let Ennis go and tried to make a life with Randall, and died because of it.

I think this comes close to what I have come to believe.

I think Jack's love for Ennis is special, the same way that Ennis's love for Jack was special.  Neither love was perfect. 

And as I have said a long time ago, Jack's letting go of Ennis could be interpreted as an act of grace.  I think Jack realized that to push Ennis in this matter would only make Ennis more miserable.   

I do think that Jack did finally let go of Ennis.  We need not fear.  We need not mourn.  I believe tha Ennis will have Jack's love always, over and above all other loves.


 

[welshwitch]

I third it! You move on if you have to, either to fall in love again, but differently, or not, You never forget your first love and you never entirely stop regretting it if it didn't become what you wanted it to be, but you often find you can love again, that love, as Sheakespeare said, is " as infinite as the sea".

Still, I don't think Jack loved Randall - liked, enjoyed his company, was physically comparible with, maybe, though as George says most of this is speculation - sometimes if the coup de foudre strikes its effects last for ever.

[gimmejack]

After watching this movie again, it is amazing how clever Ang Lee is. When I watched the movie when it came to the scene were Ennis is pacing and smoking and waiting and then the reunion kiss.

After it was over and I had calmed my racing heart down, I thought (then) why is Ennis acting like this when he was so guarded and seemingly indifferent when they first come down from the mountain to Jack's looks and pleas to come back the next year. We had seen them have sex, lark about, even make love...but nothing said Ennis loved Jack at that point in the movie.

The passion of those kisses and the gentleness of the head nuzzles at the reunion said something totally different to me. It said to me Ennis wanted Jack more than anything. Not just sexually but totally. I couldn't get it though (as much as I loved it).

It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.

I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.

Very clever positioning of the scenes indeed.  Would not have had the same impact if they werent placed right.

Hugs from behind or so sweet.  Whether he wanted to admit he was holding a man or not...Jack loved it...He understood that was all Ennis had to give at that monent.  Beautiful.

[tpe]

After watching this movie again, it is amazing how clever Ang Lee is. When I watched the movie when it came to the scene were Ennis is pacing and smoking and waiting and then the reunion kiss.

After it was over and I had calmed my racing heart down, I thought (then) why is Ennis acting like this when he was so guarded and seemingly indifferent when they first come down from the mountain to Jack's looks and pleas to come back the next year. We had seen them have sex, lark about, even make love...but nothing said Ennis loved Jack at that point in the movie.

The passion of those kisses and the gentleness of the head nuzzles at the reunion said something totally different to me. It said to me Ennis wanted Jack more than anything. Not just sexually but totally. I couldn't get it though (as much as I loved it).

It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.

I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.

Very clever positioning of the scenes indeed.  Would not have had the same impact if they werent placed right.

Hugs from behind or so sweet.  Whether he wanted to admit he was holding a man or not...Jack loved it...He understood that was all Ennis had to give at that monent.  Beautiful.

Oh! mark you yon pair, in the sunshine of youth,
Love twin’d round their childhood his flow’rs as they grew;
They flourish awhile, in the season of truth,
Till chill’d by the winter of Love’s last adieu!

(Byron)

[gimmejack]

There you go again Thomas, trying to make me cry again at work!!!

[tpe]

There you go again Thomas, trying to make me cry again at work!!!

Can't help it.  You and Tom started it.  :\'(

[gimmejack]

Beautiful poem...it really captures the moment and enhances that beautiful image.

[tpe]

Something about "all Ennis had to give at that moment" that tears me up.


You can only give what you've got.  You can only ask what you want.  But you can always love, no matter what.

[gimmejack]

Me too... :\'(  Ennis did make his sacrifices and surely gave up a lot for Jack...He gave all the love that he was capable of, but it just didnt meet Jacks ideals of what they could really be.  Then the twenty years of regret crashing down on Ennis at once...They both deserved so much more.

[welshwitch]

You often go on making compromises and never realising what it costs you till some cataclysmic event intervenes and then you suddenly see it all - that's what happens in the final confrontation. When the cracks begin to show, the whole thing is about to break up. The flashback is what they had before it becomes contaminated by the difficulties, half-truths and lies of all the later years.

[edgar]

I third it! You move on if you have to, either to fall in love again, but differently, or not, You never forget your first love and you never entirely stop regretting it if it didn't become what you wanted it to be, but you often find you can love again, that love, as Sheakespeare said, is " as infinite as the sea".

Still, I don't think Jack loved Randall - liked, enjoyed his company, was physically comparible with, maybe, though as George says most of this is speculation - sometimes if the coup de foudre strikes its effects last for ever.

Yeah. I fourth it.

Would it be indelicate of me to point out that those of us old enough to have love and lost once or twice tend to understand that Jack is moving on? I'm not going to share any personal examples, but many of us could think of reasons to break off a relationship (and remember examples of such) even when the love is still there.
It doesn't mean 100% that it's over with Ennis. I tend to think Jack would have shown up in November.... hell, just getting that postcard from Ennis would have been a sign that Ennis might be coming around... But if he had shown up, he would have initiated a very serious talk at the beginning of the week, not the end.

And would it be indelicate to point out that love is "as  boundless  as the sea, for both are infinite"?

All right, I'm going to water the lawn now. Very delicately.

[tpe]

I third it! You move on if you have to, either to fall in love again, but differently, or not, You never forget your first love and you never entirely stop regretting it if it didn't become what you wanted it to be, but you often find you can love again, that love, as Sheakespeare said, is " as infinite as the sea".

Still, I don't think Jack loved Randall - liked, enjoyed his company, was physically comparible with, maybe, though as George says most of this is speculation - sometimes if the coup de foudre strikes its effects last for ever.

Yeah. I fourth it.

Would it be indelicate of me to point out that those of us old enough to have love and lost once or twice tend to understand that Jack is moving on? I'm not going to share any personal examples, but many of us could think of reasons to break off a relationship (and remember examples of such) even when the love is still there.
It doesn't mean 100% that it's over with Ennis. I tend to think Jack would have shown up in November.... hell, just getting that postcard from Ennis would have been a sign that Ennis might be coming around... But if he had shown up, he would have initiated a very serious talk at the beginning of the week, not the end.

And would it be indelicate to point out that love is "as  boundless  as the sea, for both are infinite"?

All right, I'm going to water the lawn now. Very delicately.

There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us:  "If you love somebody, set him/her free."

I think this is what Jack did.  It is an expression of the greatest love.



 

[keren_b]

There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us:  "If you love somebody, set him/her free."

I think this is what Jack did.  It is an expression of the greatest love.

But is it what Ennis really wanted, to be set free by Jack? I know he said "why don't you just let me be" but I don't think he meant it, he still sent the card about November... I don't think he really wanted Jack to let him be.

[welshwitch]

When you're having a row, "Oh, leave me alone" often means the exact opposite - Ennis may have meant "Oh, stop making me so unhappy" but I don't think he meant "Get out of my life" or not for more than a few seconds anyway.

[gimmejack]

There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us:  "If you love somebody, set him/her free."

I think this is what Jack did.  It is an expression of the greatest love.

But is it what Ennis really wanted, to be set free by Jack? I know he said "why don't you just let me be" but I don't think he meant it, he still sent the card about November... I don't think he really wanted Jack to let him be.

Agrred, Ennis wasnt letting go, just expressing that he was having a difficult time.  It was said much in anger and frustration.  I think by the look on Jacks face at the end of the argument...Jack thought he must let him be.  In this sense, I agree with TPE.

[welshwitch]

The worst thing for Jack here must be to see how the whole thing is destroying Ennis - the comparison betweeen that " single moment of artless, charmed happiness" and what's in front of him now.

[gimmejack]

Yes, it looks like that fact hits Jack like a ton of bricks. In the midst of his own pain, he feels for Ennis and probably blames himself.  The "sorry" and the head down as he approaches Ennis for their final embrace speaks volumes...and gets me every time.

[frances]

"I wish I knew how to quit you." is just like saying I wish I knew how to stop loving you. I wish I knew how to stop loving the first person I fell in love with also. Forty-three years later the pain is still there. But I have to get on with my life. My sweet life with Stephen will never be, he is straight for one thing. Jack's Sweet life with Ennis will never be. Time to move on with a piece of your heart missing because the other person has it. But move on you must.

"Somewhere in him he has enough courage to say, 'Let's try this. Let's take this risk, but I need you to take it (with me). I can't do it alone.' There comes a time, I think, in every relationship where you have to say, 'Are you going to make this sacrifice or not? And if you're not, then I'm going to find somebody else who is maybe more willing.' "
 
(Jake Gyllenhaal - Variety December 2005)

[welshwitch]

It sounds as though Jake has been somewhere similar. The flashback is so much the ideal, frozen moment, the way we want things to be and to stay. But things move on - tout passe, tout case, tout lasse - and the ideal past is always more beautiful than the present.