Topic: Do you think that Jack was gay? Or straight, but in love? - possible spoiler

[paradigm69]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here.  I saw this movie with my friend Helen on Sunday nite, and have been totally taken with it ever since.  I have read all the posts in all the different categories, incredibly interesting.  I have a question...

In many of Jake G's interviews, he characterizes both men as being straight.  But it really doesn't seem this way to me.  Perhaps Ennis might have been straight his whole life had he not met Jack, but it seems to me that Jack really needed the company of men, and would have probably sought it even if he had never met Ennis (in fact there's quite a bit of evidence of this in movie, Mexico for example).  I read conflicting evidence on this matter, and it really surprises me that this is Jake's take on the matter.  So what do you all think? and I'm sorry if this topic or one like it has already been discussed...

With big love from Canada

[Krispera]

He said he already sinned maybe he tried to say that he's gay? Well I think, he is! Did you saw any love Jack gave to Lureen? Why he went to Mexico so many times? When Lureen and Jack went to that night, he talked so long with the guy..

Ennis, it's pretty hard to say but I think he never thought to be gay before he met Jack. Like he said

Jack Twist: You are too much for me Ennis, son of a whoreson bitch... I wish I knew how to quit you.
Ennis Del Mar: Well why don't you? Why don't you just let me be, huh? Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothing... and nowhere.

[chameau]

Gay, don't forget he goes to male prostitutes in Mexico, that could be due to the frustration of being rejected by Ennis because, yes Ennis just divorced but, he has to take care of his daughters.  That is not shown on the film but they seem to mention other travels to Mexico.  Another reason, he started ''fishing trips'' with a neighbor down in Texas.  One thing is sure, he was madly in love with Ennis.

[tpe]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here.  I saw this movie with my friend Helen on Sunday nite, and have been totally taken with it ever since.  I have read all the posts in all the different categories, incredibly interesting.  I have a question...

In many of Jake G's interviews, he characterizes both men as being straight.  But it really doesn't seem this way to me.  Perhaps Ennis might have been straight his whole life had he not met Jack, but it seems to me that Jack really needed the company of men, and would have probably sought it even if he had never met Ennis (in fact there's quite a bit of evidence of this in movie, Mexico for example).  I read conflicting evidence on this matter, and it really surprises me that this is Jake's take on the matter.  So what do you all think? and I'm sorry if this topic or one like it has already been discussed...

With big love from Canada

Hello paradigm69.  I have gained quite a lot of respect for Gyllenhaal for his performance in this film.  I remember reading his comments in the magazine Details, where he pretty much said that he thought the two protagonists were not gay.

Although the final interpretation of this statement is with Gyllenhaal, I tend to interpret this statement in the same way one of his collaborators (was it James Schamus the producer, or was it Ang Lee?) viewed it: there simply was no concept of being gay among ill-educated ranch hands such as Ennis and Jack in 1963 rural Wyoming.

Notice that Ennis refers to the attraction between himself and Jack as 'THIS THING'.  They were certainly familiar with the notion of a 'queer' (as in: 'You know I aint queer'), and in their view, a 'queer' must have been strange, deviant, weak, effeminate, flamboyant, etc -- in short, everything stereotypical and derogatory that some people even today foist up on a gay identity.

Of course, we know that the gay identity is not as stereotypical and derogatory as Ennis would have envisioned it.  But taken in their own limited sense, Jack and Ennis did not consider themselves 'queer'. 

Using the more refined concepts of today, there is very little doubt in my mind that they are gay. 

Proulx, while saying that Ennis and Jack were 'confused', did say as much in her website when she described Brokeback Mountain as a study of homophobia in the land of the pure cowboy.

[brokebackmountain]

First, welcome! paradigm69

I think the consensus here is that Jack is definitely gay. tpe explained it pretty well and I share his view. 

It could be possible that Ennis might have been straight his whole life if he didn't meet Jack but that is up to speculation. I don't think someone would just turn "gay" instantly or in this case for Ennis. One could find some evidence from the movie or the story to support Ennis's "sexual orientation."

In the movie during the first sex scene of Ennis and Alma - Ennis flipped Alma over and Alma had some painful expression on her face which coincides the short story - "he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated. I wonder what it is that Alma hated.

The other paragraph which caught my attention is in the short story when Jack and Ennis were in the motel catching up. Ennis said "I like doing it with women, yeah, but Jesus., ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts of doing it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you."

Another interesting question to ask is: Would Ennis be with Jack had he not engaged with Alma? The point is it doesn't matter. When Ennis and Jack met at Brokeback Mountain, they have sealed their fate.

In one of the interviews, Ang Lee said Ennis and Jack in his view both are gay. There are some topics also touched the characters of Ennis and may be helpful for you to draw your own conclusion.

IMHO, there is no straight guy who is in love with a gay guy. It is important to separate sex and love when examining Ennis.

Love from New York City

[tpe]

First, welcome! paradigm69

I think the consensus here is that Jack is definitely gay. tpe explained it pretty well and I share his view. 

It could be possible that Ennis might have been straight his whole life if he didn't meet Jack but that is up to speculation. I don't think someone would just turn "gay" instantly or in this case for Ennis. One could find some evidence from the movie or the story to support Ennis's "sexual orientation."

In the movie during the first sex scene of Ennis and Alma - Ennis flipped Alma over and Alma had some painful expression on her face which coincides the short story - "he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated. I wonder what it is that Alma hated.

The other paragraph which caught my attention is in the short story when Jack and Ennis were in the motel catching up. Ennis said "I like doing it with women, yeah, but Jesus., ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts of doing it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you."

Another interesting question to ask is: Would Ennis be with Jack had he not engaged with Alma? The point is it doesn't matter. When Ennis and Jack met at Brokeback Mountain, they have sealed their fate.

In one of the interviews, Ang Lee said Ennis and Jack in his view both are gay. There are some topics also touched the characters of Ennis and may be helpful for you to draw your own conclusion.

IMHO, there is no straight guy who is in love with a gay guy. It is important to separate sex and love when examining Ennis.

Love from New York City

brokebackmountain, thanks on elaborating on this some more.  I do think the question is a good one, there is enough room for different levels of interpretation.

I love your citing those two passages in the story.  I initially interpreted 'what Alma hated' as sexual intercourse 'a la Grecque'.  But it may have been very well just the position.

From Ennis' comment in the story, it would seem that a bi-sexual interpretation also stands.  Then again, without getting into an argument about this, human sexuality as a whole is more of a continuous spectrum, in my opinion.  I hope I am not getting into controversial waters here...

[brokebackmountain]

thanks on elaborating on this some more.  I do think the question is a good one, there is enough room for different levels of interpretation.

I love your citing those two passages in the story.  I initially interpreted 'what Alma hated' as sexual intercourse 'a la Grecque'.  But it may have been very well just the position.

From Ennis' comment in the story, it would seem that a bi-sexual interpretation also stands.  Then again, without getting into an argument about this, human sexuality as a whole is more of a continuous spectrum, in my opinion.  I hope I am not getting into controversial waters here...

tpe, you are welcome. Glad I can add some. I always love reading your posts but came up short with my words. You are knowledgable and the moderator after all. I interpreted the same as your initial interpretation about what Alma hated. Again, I just love this movie - nothing is certain but the love between Ennis and Jack.

Indeed, human sexuality is a complex continuum. IMHO, having gay sex doesn't make one gay but falling in love with same sex makes does. It is possible that Ennis and Jack could be in the first scenario but it didn't stop there - not only the first tent or second tent scene from the movie. The story also wrote -

"They never talked about sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire grow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except one Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours."

(It seems like a hell of a vacation in Brokeback Mountain). Ennis must have questioned himself and IMHO, it was a response of denial.

Anyhow, the attraction lasted more than twenty years. Ennis who feared the most had endured "finshing trips" for twenty years and lost his marriage and disappointed Cassie. To me, the only force that sustained Ennis was the love he had for Jack.

Take a look from another character - Cassie. She is the second woman who Ennis had disappointed. I think she is an important character that may help shed some light on this.

[jimnick]

Anyhow, the attraction lasted more than twenty years. Ennis who feared the most had endured "finshing trips" for twenty years and lost his marriage and disappointed Cassie. To me, the only force that sustained Ennis was the love he had for Jack.

Take a look from another character - Cassie. She is the second woman who Ennis had disappointed. I think she is an important character that may help shed some light on this.

I love Cassie's line:

"Carl?  He's alright. He even talks."

Ennis could never talk about his feelings.  I think that Ennis is in love with another person who happens to be a man (albeit the most beautiful person in the whole world).  I don't think he thinks that he is gay.  He wrestles his whole life with his feelings.  I further, don't think that he has ever or ever will so much as look at another man.  It's only for Jack and Jack alone.

Jack has the HUNGER.  He loves Ennis but he must be fed.  He wants to build his life round his love, and that means share everyday with someone else, hopefully Ennis, but not necessarily so.

Jim

[stickler]

To a certain extent being gay is a label that one gives oneself.  When the feelings and emotions that the person has deep inside them are confronted and understood many people are drawn to classify themselves are being gay.  Throughout the film Jack seems more emotionally intelligent than Ennis and is constantly trying to help and support his emotional fears.  However, at the early part of the film the characters may be, deep down in their hearts, gay but until they come to accept it they aren't ... they're simply at war with their feelings.  I feel that throughout the story Jack comes to undersatnd and embrace his sexaulity and by May 1983 Jack decides that while Ennis might feel gay he wont ever be gay and thats when he moves on in his mind (as symbolised by the scene where he harks back to the campfire scene those many years ago).  I think that Ennis finally 'becomes' gay at the point where he asks his daughter whether Kurt loves her or not (like Jack did him and vice versa) and he says the tearful goodbye 'Jack I swear ...'

[Toadily]

I know Ang Lee said Jack was "more gay than Ennis" whatever that means.  I think Jack, if he lived now, woudl have been
gay %100.  Ennis not so much, he loved Jack but if he hadn't met Jack might have just sstayed in his life with Alma etc.

[stickler]

Hmmm nar I think Ennis was just as gay potentially... he loved Alma but he didnt lust after her also.  Its just that Jack had come to terms with it better than Ennis and so was 'more gay'.  To its kind like the difference between existing and living ... unless your true to yourself you can exist but your not living ... the two guys seemed to make that transferance at different points in their lifes ... and in Ennis's case a little too late. 

I my arrogant opinion obviously 

[daveya26]

Hi

I think its important how they define themselves and neither would say they were gay 'I aint no queer'.  There is a term used in sexual health promotion 'Men who have sex with Men', it includes homosexuals but also those guys who dont identify themselves as being gay but who still have sex with men.

Yes, by definition both guys are gay, or at least bisexual - what I think this film might do is show people that love can exist between two people regardless of their gender, maybe it isnt that helpful to put ourselves in these boxes...

Saying that, Jack was definitely more accepting of this side of his nature and we see him explore it with other people, but he also has a sense of duty to his wife.  Its interesting that its Ennis, the more repressed of the two, who divorces his wife - part of the reason for this seems to be lack of sexual interest, we see him have anal sex with his wife at one point, maybe trying to emulate the feelings he had with Jack but the act alone isnt enough, its the person that matters.

[brokebackmountain]

I think its important how they define themselves and neither would say they were gay 'I aint no queer'.  There is a term used in sexual health promotion 'Men who have sex with Men', it includes homosexuals but also those guys who dont identify themselves as being gay but who still have sex with men.

Yes, by definition both guys are gay, or at least bisexual - what I think this film might do is show people that love can exist between two people regardless of their gender, maybe it isnt that helpful to put ourselves in these boxes...

Saying that, Jack was definitely more accepting of this side of his nature and we see him explore it with other people, but he also has a sense of duty to his wife.  Its interesting that its Ennis, the more repressed of the two, who divorces his wife - part of the reason for this seems to be lack of sexual interest, we see him have anal sex with his wife at one point, maybe trying to emulate the feelings he had with Jack but the act alone isnt enough, its the person that matters.

You are right - Jack has definitely evolved since he said to Ennis "me neither" and been more accepting of who he really is. Ennis probably hasn't changed a bit and falls into the later one you identified - those who don't identify themselves gay but have sex with men. I could totally see Ennis in this category.

It is interesting that you pointed out the contrast of marriage (obligation) between Jack and Ennis. I would think divorce came from Alma. Had his relationship with Jack not been exposed to Alma, Ennis would not divorce Alma. For that, Ennis would be the one who refuses to identify himself gay but has sex with Jack.

I don't think for sure in the movie we see Ennis having anal sex with his wife, although one can infer. In the story, Ennis also said that he enjoyed doing it with women.

It all boils down to how one defines it. How we define them is not important but Ennis himself. He only realized it until it was too late.   

 

[daveya26]

You are right - Jack has definitely evolved since he said to Ennis "me neither" and been more accepting of who he really is. Ennis probably hasn't changed a bit and falls into the later one you identified - those who don't identify themselves gay but have sex with men. I could totally see Ennis in this category.

Hi

I personally didnt that that Jack fully meant 'me neither' when he said it, it seemed like he was saying it to save face in front of Ennis.  He couldnt have said he was 'queer' because Ennie probably wouldve rejected him outright at that point.

It is interesting that you pointed out the contrast of marriage (obligation) between Jack and Ennis. I would think divorce came from Alma. Had his relationship with Jack not been exposed to Alma, Ennis would not divorce Alma. For that, Ennis would be the one who refuses to identify himself gay but has sex with Jack.

Yes, I hadnt thought of that, but of course the divorce mustve been initiated by Alma.

I don't think for sure in the movie we see Ennis having anal sex with his wife, although one can infer. In the story, Ennis also said that he enjoyed doing it with women.

Now thats interesting as I thought it was pretty well shown - it looked like he turned her over quite roughly (as he did with Jack) and she winced like she had never experienced this before.  I'll need to see it again (am I making excuses to go see it again? :-) )

It all boils down to how one defines it. How we define them is not important but Ennis himself. He only realized it until it was too late. 

Ennis may not have even realised it at the end - for me, he knew he loved Jack from the first Summer but he fought against it.  At the end he learned to let it in and yes, that was too late in a way but I also feel Ennis experienced some redemption.  In the short story, even though Jack is dead, it seems like Ennis still feels him with him and takes some joy (and pain) in that.

[brokebackmountain]

I personally didnt that that Jack fully meant 'me neither' when he said it, it seemed like he was saying it to save face in front of Ennis.  He couldnt have said he was 'queer' because Ennie probably wouldve rejected him outright at that point.

Good morning. It could well be that Jack didn't mean when he said that. But again thinking in the context of 1966, no one would identify himself as "queer" regardlessly. It carried a negative cannotation and often could result a death sentence.

Now thats interesting as I thought it was pretty well shown - it looked like he turned her over quite roughly (as he did with Jack) and she winced like she had never experienced this before.  I'll need to see it again (am I making excuses to go see it again? :-) )

Seeing more does help and you don't need excuses to see this movie many times. If you have read earlier posts in this thread, it could be just uncomfortable position as suggested by tpe. Maybe it is the one that makes Ennis feel in control and Alma didn't like it.  Or it could well be what you have suggested. In an earlier post, I mentioned in the movie during the first sex scene of Ennis and Alma - Ennis flipped Alma over and Alma had some painful expression on her face which coincides the short story - "he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated." All we can say is Alma didn't like it.     

Ennis may not have even realised it at the end - for me, he knew he loved Jack from the first Summer but he fought against it.  At the end he learned to let it in and yes, that was too late in a way but I also feel Ennis experienced some redemption.  In the short story, even though Jack is dead, it seems like Ennis still feels him with him and takes some joy (and pain) in that.

You are right. Realizing how much Ennis loves Jack doesn't mean Ennis is willing to identify himself as gay. He may just recognized his love. I really think and agree with the producers and Ang Lee that the movie is not a gay cowboy movie - it is a LOVE story. A story that makes us so affected to spend time on this board.

[stickler]

Another thing that I think is important within in the context of this conversation is that there are two types of bisexuality.  There's the real bisexuality where a guy (or a girl) is attracted to both genders ... the ratio of this attraction very much depends upon the person and there's the other type of bisexuality which is a stepping stone of going from being straight to being gay (a kind of look before you leap moment if you will). 

Ennis says that he enjoys sex with women but its nothing like it is with Jack ... I interpreted that as meaning that cocking one off with his wife was enjoyable but lacking in passion ... like it is with Jack.

To use the expressions voiced above I suspect that were there to be no judgement in society then Ennis would have been a batter for the men who have sex with men camp.  Unable to reconcile his instinct with the reality of his environment he decided that if he couldnt change it, he had just gotta stand it.

[Fleur]

I have just seen the film it was unbelievably moving. I have not seen such a brilliant film in a very long time. To me, Jack was almost certainly 'gay', whereas I felt that Ennis may not have not have experienced a homosexual relationship had he not encountered Jack. However, the fate of the gay rancher he had witnessed as a child may well have put him off that course of action up until he meets Jack. Having met Jack, Ennis falls in love and doesn't seem to gain the same satisfaction in his relationships with women. Ennis seems to be able to go for longer periods without gratification though...so perhaps he does gain more satisfaction from sex with women than Jack does... Anyway superb film!!!!!

[brokebackmountain]

I have just seen the film it was unbelievably moving. I have not seen such a brilliant film in a very long time. To me, Jack was almost certainly 'gay', whereas I felt that Ennis may not have not have experienced a homosexual relationship had he not encountered Jack. However, the fate of the gay rancher he had witnessed as a child may well have put him off that course of action up until he meets Jack. Having met Jack, Ennis falls in love and doesn't seem to gain the same satisfaction in his relationships with women. Ennis seems to be able to go for longer periods without gratification though...so perhaps he does gain more satisfaction from sex with women than Jack does... Anyway superb film!!!!!

Hello Fleur welcome and thanks for your first post here. I feel the same way. Hope to read some of your posts in the forum.

Another thing that I think is important within in the context of this conversation is that there are two types of bisexuality.  There's the real bisexuality where a guy (or a girl) is attracted to both genders ... the ratio of this attraction very much depends upon the person and there's the other type of bisexuality which is a stepping stone of going from being straight to being gay (a kind of look before you leap moment if you will).

I am confused with the second type. Said..someone was straight then becomes gay - it is still a type of bisexuality? Or are you saying it is the process, much like in the case of Ennis?

[borger1582]

Slightly OT, but on the marriages - it's interesting to me that someone above characterized Jack as more committed to his marriage to Lureen.  And I think this may bring up an interesting balance the filmmakers struck, another contrast for us to observe - Ennis gets divorced from Alma, but even after the divorce, won't commit to the life and lifestyle Jack wants to have with him.  We can certainly see that this failure to commit is rooted in Ennis' fear of the personal repercussions of living with another guy.  However, he also seems to stay committed to his girls, in regards to spending time with them, living near enough to do so, and child support (which, especially at the time - late 70's - a LOT of men skipped out on).  Jack, on the other hand, seems to try to work a functional marriage with Lureen and we see scenes of him being "dad" with Bobby his son - BUT if Ennis would have committed to the life Jack wanted, Jack would have left Lureen in a heartbeat and been willing to live 1400 miles away from his son . . .

Perhaps this is hogwash, perhaps it deserves it's own topic . . .

[stickler]

I agree with Borger's opinion above ...

Re the second type which I mentioned earlier ... many men who are solely attracted to men go through a faze of saying that they are bisexual ... they're not bisexual really but its a dam lot easier saying to society well i like girls and guys than saying 'well actually I prefer guys' ... you could call these people 'transient bisexuals' I suppose.  Many of the gay people I know bunny hopped into gaydom and went through this transient phase.  That is not to say that the other sort of bisexuality doesnt exist ... i very much believe that there are many people out there who are genuinely attracted to both sexes.  To me transient bisexuality is primarily about fear ... the other sort is about attraction.  I suspect that Ennis's apparent bi-sexuality was solely down to the fear of repercussions should he pursue his real feelings.

[brokebackmountain]

they're not bisexual really but its a dam lot easier saying to society well i like girls and guys than saying 'well actually I prefer guys' ... you could call these people 'transient bisexuals' I suppose.  Many of the gay people I know bunny hopped into gaydom and went through this transient phase.  That is not to say that the other sort of bisexuality doesnt exist ... i very much believe that there are many people out there who are genuinely attracted to both sexes.  To me transient bisexuality is primarily about fear ... the other sort is about attraction.  I suspect that Ennis's apparent bi-sexuality was solely down to the fear of repercussions should he pursue his real feelings.

stickler, thanks for clarifying. I do too think there are true bisexuals out there. Human sexuality is really complex and I don't want to go off topic here. This really sparks my interest. Perhaps we can start a topic on this one.

BUT if Ennis would have committed to the life Jack wanted, Jack would have left Lureen in a heartbeat and been willing to live 1400 miles away from his son . . .

borger1582, I agree with you. The more I think about this issue, the more I feel that Ennis is the one who committed more to his marriage. In addition to his fear which prevents him from pursuing his true happiness, Ennis did mention his concern of family to Jack about the family. In contrast, Jack just said as far as his marriage goes, he could just do it over the phone. Functional marraige is not necessarily a committed one.

Yes, this is getting off topic. If you could think of a good discussion topic, feel free to start one. Thanks! 

[borger1582]

I just got in trouble over at the IMDB for suggesting I would like the boys better (especially Jack) if GIVEN the fact that they made a mistake and got married and had kids (even if societal prejudice conspired to enforce these bad choices), I would have preferred them to WAIT until the youngest child (Bobby  I think) was 18, then Jack divorces Lureen and does whatever he wants . . . obviously it's better for everyone if they just get together right after Brokeback . . .

And that leads to another interesting point - the film makes much of Ennis' fear as the driving factor, but as I argue above, in the story, it's duty and commitment as well - he might even have "ranched up" with Jack if he had understood what he was feeling right after Brokeback.  As evidence I offer the motel dialog, most of which is missing from the film - especially the part about "shouldn't a let you out a my sights" and "caught in my own loop, stuck with what I got here."

Further thoughts on this?  Would film Ennis have ranched up with film Jack before either got married?  Would story Ennis have ranched up with Jack before they got married?

[stickler]

I'm not sure that that really stands ... afterall Alma divorced Ennis and he could easily have 'set a small business up with his buddy' if he had wanted to ... when theres something your terrified of its easy to come up with valid excuses to explain your behaviour ...

[paradigm69]

Thanks everyone for your insights re my question.  After seeing Jake on the Tonight Show, I think I see where my 'problem' really seems to be, and it's with Jake G., unfortunately.  IMO, his approach to BBM and his explanation of it and the characters seem to leave out the gay element too much.  IMO, yes this is a love story, but it is between two men, like it or not.  Jake seems to really shy away from the gay element.  Perhaps he is trying to promote the movie without unnecessarily turning people off. 

On the Tonight Show, IMO, he just sort of comes across as being "hey I'm straight and I am usually homophobic too, but this script is really good and Ang Lee directed it."  It's like he's trying to play both sides of the coin, like he would totally understand why people would NOT want to see BBM.  For example, his 'ew' response to BBM when approached with the script for the first time (when he was 16).  I don't have the transcripts, but he was basically saying that when he was first approached with a 'gay cowboy movie' he said NO, "of course."  It's the "of course" that I have a tough time swallowing.  What do you mean?  "Of course" you're going to turn it down, like who who in their right mind would do this movie?  Now I realize that there is a very feasible explanation for any negative concern I bring up.  Maybe he's just being honest, can't fault him for that.  Maybe he's trying to show empathy for sceptics and by placing himself in their shoes it shows that this movie really can appeal to anyone.  Maybe he's young, hey no one's perfect.

I don't mean to take anything away from Jake, in particular his performance.  And to be fair, Jake's comments about BBM being the most beautiful story he has ever read, does alot to mitigate anything else he says that could have been construed as being negative (like how I am construing).  I really loved, empathized with Jack, so maybe it "suprises" me that the actor who played him seems to be compromising the truth, honesty in the character Jack.  Now, I might very well be WAY OFF on the preceding tirade, so I was kind of wondering if anyone else might have felt or noticed the same thing, or if someone wants to set me, ahem, straight...   

[Toadily]

I have heard critcisms such as this, the way I see it they are actors, they aren't spiritual leaders.
He played a part brilliantly, was directed brilliantly.  He did his part.  I think we need to let these kids
be kids, I mean I am sorry 25 is a kid in my book (wasn't he 24 when he made the movie?  WhenI was 24 I could
barely pump my own gas)  So I don't worry too much about what they say, Ang Lee says Jack is "more gay than
Ennis" and I am not sure what that means.  I do know he made a great movie and a great love story.
The social revolution may have to be lead by someone else.

[jimnick]

Thanks everyone for your insights re my question.  After seeing Jake on the Tonight Show, I think I see where my 'problem' really seems to be, and it's with Jake G., unfortunately.  IMO, his approach to BBM and his explanation of it and the characters seem to leave out the gay element too much.  IMO, yes this is a love story, but it is between two men, like it or not.  Jake seems to really shy away from the gay element.  Perhaps he is trying to promote the movie without unnecessarily turning people off. 

On the Tonight Show, IMO, he just sort of comes across as being "hey I'm straight and I am usually homophobic too, but this script is really good and Ang Lee directed it."  It's like he's trying to play both sides of the coin, like he would totally understand why people would NOT want to see BBM.  For example, his 'ew' response to BBM when approached with the script for the first time (when he was 16).  I don't have the transcripts, but he was basically saying that when he was first approached with a 'gay cowboy movie' he said NO, "of course."  It's the "of course" that I have a tough time swallowing.  What do you mean?  "Of course" you're going to turn it down, like who who in their right mind would do this movie?  Now I realize that there is a very feasible explanation for any negative concern I bring up.  Maybe he's just being honest, can't fault him for that.  Maybe he's trying to show empathy for sceptics and by placing himself in their shoes it shows that this movie really can appeal to anyone.  Maybe he's young, hey no one's perfect.

I don't mean to take anything away from Jake, in particular his performance.  And to be fair, Jake's comments about BBM being the most beautiful story he has ever read, does alot to mitigate anything else he says that could have been construed as being negative (like how I am construing).  I really loved, empathized with Jack, so maybe it "suprises" me that the actor who played him seems to be compromising the truth, honesty in the character Jack.  Now, I might very well be WAY OFF on the preceding tirade, so I was kind of wondering if anyone else might have felt or noticed the same thing, or if someone wants to set me, ahem, straight...   

Not going to try to set you stray-t. but you got me a thinkin, and we all know how dangerous that can be...

I love Jack and Jake as Jack.  What's more, I would just about do anything that Jake says "do", and I'd give him anything he could ask for; no question.  BUT, he's not going to ask anything of me; he doesn't know me and wouldn't want to.  And that's OK because he has given me (us all) a gift, the magnitude of which, he can never know.  I think that Jake is a hetero guy; he's not said so but he lends credit to it.  He is a great actor and has acted his part greatly.  He can not know what it is truly like to be in love with another man as a man.  OK, but, he is talking about it, albeit as a straight dude talks about it.  The fact is he talks about it.  This man who people listen to is saying positive things about people like us and that is good for us.  See?  No straight man wants people to think he is gay, especially a glamorous Hollywood star.  That's our world.  And, none of us can fix it, we all have to stand it.  This is how Jake stands it.  And, I think he does OK. 

BTW, I'd still send him my shirt... anyone game?

Jim

[gavinlee]

Hey, loved the movie!  Its the only gay movie I've seen where I could related to the characters and actually been moved by some of the scenes.  This issue about Jake G saying that Jack was straight kinda bothered me.  It's like finally here is a good quality movie about gay experiences but it is made more straight by one of the lead actors.  But I think Jake G has been misunderstood.  Here's what I coppied from one of his interviews:

Q: Is this a character who is gay, or who just happens to fall in love with a man?
 A: I think it's implied that it's something in him. But in playing it, I didn't really even approach it that way. I knew that Larry McMurtry and Annie Proulx had already kinda written that into the character so I didn't really play it. I think we both approached the roles like neither of us was gay, you know. That we met each other and really were surprised by how we felt for each other.

In a sense, both Jack and Ennis have straight experiences and this is what the movie is about; love through repression and all the difficulties it brings.  But Jake G meant (as far as I get it) that he approached the role as if Jack was straight, although he was gay according to the story.  So its almost just a mere technique of acting, to make it more convincing, because that they realize their feelings for each other, despite the fact that they think they are straight, makes it all the more romantic and passionate.  I don't think I've articulated myself too well, sorry!

[tpe]

But Jake G meant (as far as I get it) that he approached the role as if Jack was straight, although he was gay according to the story.  So its almost just a mere technique of acting, to make it more convincing, because that they realize their feelings for each other, despite the fact that they think they are straight, makes it all the more romantic and passionate.  I don't think I've articulated myself too well, sorry!

Hello gavinlee.  Welcome.

I definitely agree with your interpretation.  I even suspect that both Ledger and Gyllenhaal acted beautifully because they just tried to be themselves, even if they tried to project a strong on-screen love for each other that is not common among (I assume) non-gay/bisexual actors attempting gay/bisexual roles.

The more both Ledger and Gyllenhaal tried not to 'act' a gay identity, the more they struck me as thoroughly convincing.  This is just my opinion...

[stickler]

I haven't seen the Gyllenhaal interviews that much but I think I've choosen to interpret them more favourably ... at 16 its not surprising that Jake rejected the idea outright ... its almost the point of the film really when you think about it ... in today's society gay = bad and straight = good.  Jakes matured decision to play the role gives credence to his compassion regarding the subject matter in my view.  Regarding the 'its not a gay cowboy movie' I actually think thats a good way to play it ... I might be placing them on a far more enlightend pole than they are really but I feel that by saying its not a gay love story but just a love story what they are really saying is that love is love and who its with shouldn't matter.  Under this viewpoint the fact that the characters are gay is just a 'twist' (theres a better word but it escapes me) of the story ... it could just as well be about age, alcohol, distance etc but they wouldn't be classified as a love story based on age or a love story based on alcohol or a love story on travelling ... they would just be a love stories who's principle characters have different things and limitations happening in their lives.  If this is correct then this gives Brokeback the potential to be one of the most egalitarian things ever to have been made ... love is love regardless of who its directed at.

[tpe]

I haven't seen the Gyllenhaal interviews that much but I think I've choosen to interpret them more favourably ... at 16 its not surprising that Jake rejected the idea outright ... its almost the point of the film really when you think about it ... in today's society gay = bad and straight = good.  Jakes matured decision to play the role gives credence to his compassion regarding the subject matter in my view.  Regarding the 'its not a gay cowboy movie' I actually think thats a good way to play it ... I might be placing them on a far more enlightend pole than they are really but I feel that by saying its not a gay love story but just a love story what they are really saying is that love is love and who its with shouldn't matter.  Under this viewpoint the fact that the characters are gay is just a 'twist' (theres a better word but it escapes me) of the story ... it could just as well be about age, alcohol, distance etc but they wouldn't be classified as a love story based on age or a love story based on alcohol or a love story on travelling ... they would just be a love stories who's principle characters have different things and limitations happening in their lives.  If this is correct then this gives Brokeback the potential to be one of the most egalitarian things ever to have been made ... love is love regardless of who its directed at.

So true.  It is one of the loveliest meditations on love I have ever seen or read.