Author Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?  (Read 166177 times)

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #270 on: Jan 07, 2007, 03:46 AM »
Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?

As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.

God I love this scene, all these scenes, this thread.

You're right, WW, it is odd that Jack says "fellas like you and me."  Maybe he'd like to think Ennis is like him, i.e., homosexually inclined, at least in this instance, on the mountain.  But to actually say it -- what would he think Ennis would t hink is their commonality?  Maybe because they're drinking?  Drinking was/is pretty much a no-no in their parents' religions.  But I don't think it was that.  It was just Jack's way of beginning that little round of flirtation?  (Those words not in the SS, but in the script, so we'd have to ask Larry and Diana.)

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Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #271 on: Jan 07, 2007, 03:51 AM »
Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidently" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he would'nt be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?)  to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying resoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.

Aintfoolin' -- making it how you want it or not...I like the direction you're going.  I like how you point out how much Ennis was participating in the beginnings of this flirtation (in the SS, indicated by his happiness and wanting to paw the white out of the moon, whatever that means).  And in the WWJ scene, not just responding to Jack, but instigating for himself, at least in hints...and really that's all they could afford at this point, was hints.  Until later.

I just LOVE Jack's "Mmmm."  And as you say, it tells Ennis that he got it.  ;)

kathy
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manhattangirl

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #272 on: Jan 14, 2007, 11:48 AM »
Hi,

Ok Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, but what in the heck did Ennis mean when he said, "Unlike you, I haven't  had the opportunity,"  Some one HELP.


Manhattangirl

Offline ethan

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #273 on: Jan 14, 2007, 02:02 PM »
Hello Manhattangirl,

Below is the topic which may interest you.

Maybe you are sinner.....
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #274 on: Jan 14, 2007, 02:38 PM »
Ethan


Thanks,  that line threw me,  I didn't want read too much into it,  this story is deeper in so many different ways.   thanks again.


Manhattangirl

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #275 on: Jan 14, 2007, 10:41 PM »
Manhattan Girl...that's what we do here, is read a whole lot into everything!  You go read as much as you want into it.  And this is a fascinating scene, and that's a great thread.

You might also enjoy "Double Meanings" thread -- what is said and the different interpretations we can make.

kathy
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #276 on: Jan 30, 2007, 06:46 AM »
Hi,

Ok Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, but what in the heck did Ennis mean when he said, "Unlike you, I haven't  had the opportunity,"  Some one HELP.


Manhattangirl
:h) Ok, I'll do my best manhattan! As with damned near everything else, this  has layers of meaning, so let me at least attempt to explain the symbolism used...and I do mean attempt because I don't get it all yet lolol. Now, IMO  Ennis was telling Jack he knew what Jack wanted; that he, Ennis had never done anything whatsoever but wanted to become a sinner...with Jack. Slow down that scene slightly on your dvd and really look at the marvelous way Ang Lee uses the boys' cowboy hats to create emphasis and thrust, to set the scene and mood, to give signals to the viewer  and signals for his CHARACTERS, one to the other, as well.

In key parts of the dialogue, their eyes are hidden>>> by COWBOY HATS.

What we have are  two western cowboy hats speaking, in the sense that you don't see their eyes. Those eyes are hidden, ie, closeted. When AL  lifts that veil [ the cowboy hats ], he does it simply and in a natural yet hesitant way: he has Jack and Ennis raise their heads a slight bit.

When they do that we see their eyes instead of a facade, ie, we see the REAL Jack and the REAL Ennis. 

We see what's under the cowboy hats. The boys become two people, two teenagers about to open the closet door. You can virtually hear the damned things' hinges squeak as it opens.

 So Jack and Ennis, looking downwards, hiding their eyes <" the eyes are the mirror of the soul"> under their cowboy hats symbolises  that they are in the closet. Raising their heads so we see their eyes symbolises 'the closet door' being opened.

From western stereotypes,  the boys personalities very suddenly SHINE in a very effective way, as AL shows us what is behind the closet door. He says ten thousand words with a simple raising of their hats.

Now, coming to "You may be a sinner...":
This is pretty subjective. IMO Ennis is just drunk enough to signal Jack and tell him he knows Jack is one of 'those guys', that he knows Jack is 'a sinner'. Look at that knowing and smirky, up and down 'Boy, I KNOW your shit!' look he gives Jack Twist. Jack for his part offers Ennis the bottle of whiskey which symbolises the apple in the Garden of Eden>>>>>>>>>and ennis accepts it. Jack has a look on his ace which screams  HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!! >:D YESYESYES THANK YOU SWEET JESUS  AND THE PENTECOST,I AM  GOIN A GET ME SOME ENNIS-TAIL, I AM  in, I AM in, &**) I AM IM!!!!!"

Both have been drinking at the same rate $) until that point. Ennis wants Jack, so he gets drunk, Jack wants ennis--so he slows waaay down. By the time they are ready for bed Ennis is so drunk he can't walk, while Jack for his part is no more then a bit woozy.......all of which brings us to another thread and the  *o) FNIT.

Hope this helps a bit! ::)

Jack

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #277 on: Jan 30, 2007, 08:08 AM »
I want to thnk everyone again for shring some very interesting thoughts and comments.


I do like the idea that Ennis's avowal of virginity was both a statement and invitation.  I do think it was an invitation to Jack, whether intentional or subliminal -- it does not really matter.  I think at this point, both were ready to push the relationship to another level, but that trying to accomplish this could not have been done openly.  Hence, this oblique invitation.

And I do think Jack got it...




Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #278 on: Jan 30, 2007, 09:17 AM »
I want to thnk everyone again for shring some very interesting thoughts and comments.


I do like the idea that Ennis's avowal of virginity was both a statement and invitation.  I do think it was an invitation to Jack, whether intentional or subliminal -- it does not really matter.  I think at this point, both were ready to push the relationship to another level, but that trying to accomplish this could not have been done openly.  Hence, this oblique invitation.

And I do think Jack got it...





The more you view that scene the more it seems like an invitation, inadvertent or not. There are many times when we are attracted to a person and we say/do things we'd never imagine saying or doing in a million years and even after you've done it you think to yourself "Why did I just do that?" I am thinking this is what happened with Ennis. The attraction plus the alcohol made it that much easier to let an admission/invitation slip out like that and bless Jack for picking right up on it and going for it.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #279 on: Jan 30, 2007, 10:35 AM »
The more you view that scene the more it seems like an invitation, inadvertent or not. There are many times when we are attracted to a person and we say/do things we'd never imagine saying or doing in a million years and even after you've done it you think to yourself "Why did I just do that?" I am thinking this is what happened with Ennis. The attraction plus the alcohol made it that much easier to let an admission/invitation slip out like that and bless Jack for picking right up on it and going for it.

Precisely. Attraction makes us do things.  We say things we normally don't say and we don't say things we normally say.  The response to Ennis's avowal is quite interesting: it sounded like Jack relished the idea that Ennis was untried and untested, no?


Offline jacks_key

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #280 on: Jan 30, 2007, 10:43 AM »
I agree totally Tpe. Those hints in the opening scenes did not go unnoticed. What was Jack thinking?, tempting a poor naive, little country  boy like Ennis. SMILES.  There ought to be a law against leaning  on trucks lookin that good.

So true!
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Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #281 on: Jan 30, 2007, 10:49 AM »
Precisely. Attraction makes us do things.  We say things we normally don't say and we don't say things we normally say.  The response to Ennis's avowal is quite interesting: it sounded like Jack relished the idea that Ennis was untried and untested, no?



Jack was audibly pleased with Ennis's admission. Not only because of the way Ennis presented it to him, but it was yet another aspect of their relationship that had evolved. For Ennis to confide in Jack and tell him something that private is a huge step for Ennis and I think that also had a lot to do with Jack's confidence that night in the tent.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #282 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:04 AM »
Jack was audibly pleased with Ennis's admission. Not only because of the way Ennis presented it to him, but it was yet another aspect of their relationship that had evolved. For Ennis to confide in Jack and tell him something that private is a huge step for Ennis and I think that also had a lot to do with Jack's confidence that night in the tent.

Yes, he DID sound quite pleased.  I think at that point, he seemed confident enough to make his move.  And yes, it must have been a surprising admission.  I am sure Jack must have been inwardly taken aback, but it surely must have whetted his appetite...


Offline jacks_key

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #283 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:15 AM »
Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it.  it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons  and  removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.

Ai-yi-yi...I never noticed that!  I'm going to have to watch that scene again when I get home.   :d)
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Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #284 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:25 AM »
Ai-yi-yi...I never noticed that!  I'm going to have to watch that scene again when I get home.   :d)

Smoking hot that one tiny aspect is. You'll love it  O0

Offline jacks_key

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #285 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:35 AM »
^^I want to run home right now!   :clap:
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Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #286 on: Jan 30, 2007, 10:46 PM »
Oh I just love, love, love this scene, the "I ain't had the opportunity" scene.  It is just so incredibly adorable, Ennis -- innocent, held-in Ennis -- saying what he said, so overtly, and the look on his face makes his meaning clear.  I love Jack's "Mmmm."  They were both so primed at that point to make (Jack) or let (Ennis) something happen, but then Ennis let the drink get the better of him, as it can tend to do.  But of course it all worked out in the end.  If Ennis hadn't been so wasted, their first time might have been something more like SNIT.  But I love how their first time was depicted instead, the FNIT scenario -- so raw and urgent.  Get that big leap out of the way first, then there's plenty of time for a more lucid exploration...

kathy
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #287 on: Jan 31, 2007, 06:58 AM »
Somehow I suspect that Ennis probably knew something was gonna happen between he and Jack . He was drunk, but why sleep outside as Jack tries to coax him into the tent? It had to at least cross his mind that Jack may try something. When Jack called him , he could've said "no, I'm fine or "I'll be alright out here" or something but he got up and entered the tent at Jack's command. Thus, the opportunity.  Was he just putting off the inevitable out of fear? Jack guessed that the pentecost was "when the world ends and fellas like me and you march off to hell" at which Ennis says his comment about "opportunity". Jack could have meant they could be  commonly hellraisers or homosexuals, I don't really know, but in any case he was'nt gonna let the world end without Ennis never having  had the opportunity to "ride the good horse"  at least one time... with no reins . They both got their opportunities ....together.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #288 on: Jan 31, 2007, 08:42 AM »
Oh I just love, love, love this scene, the "I ain't had the opportunity" scene.  It is just so incredibly adorable, Ennis -- innocent, held-in Ennis -- saying what he said, so overtly, and the look on his face makes his meaning clear.  I love Jack's "Mmmm."  They were both so primed at that point to make (Jack) or let (Ennis) something happen, but then Ennis let the drink get the better of him, as it can tend to do.  But of course it all worked out in the end.  If Ennis hadn't been so wasted, their first time might have been something more like SNIT.  But I love how their first time was depicted instead, the FNIT scenario -- so raw and urgent.  Get that big leap out of the way first, then there's plenty of time for a more lucid exploration...

kathy

I think the urgency in the FNIT is that both of them were unsure as to how the other would react (particularly in the case of Ennis, of course).  There was a resoluteness in their actions that belied the uncertainty.  The difference with the SNIT is that by that time, they had come to an understanding of what they wanted and how they felt.  What a difference an ambivalent conversation up in the mountains can make, no?

How did Jack know when to make his move.  I wonder if he really did know precisely when...  I think it was just the need pushing itself to the surface when there was a good opportunity.  But certainly, Jack must have known that it would happen sooner or later after Ennis confided to him his inexperience.


Offline tamlynn

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #289 on: Apr 15, 2007, 06:15 PM »
The part I love about FNIT was Jack's expert strategy and control.  So well planned was Jack's move on Ennis that Ennis was putty in his hands.  Big strong, practical hardworking Ennis who had a good work ethic and could cook and shoot, follow the rules with no complaint, and everything else that Jack couldn't, was putty in Jack's hands in their first night, which Jack also planned.

It was because of Jack their jobs unraveled, specifically, Jack's fixation on Ennis.  He is so masterful in his strategy and pursuit I didn't give a hoot about ethics or sheep.  So he worked me too.  He was all I could think about.

First he had to get Ennis into the tent.  Ennis, shivering audibly, was yelled at by Jack to get in the tent.  It worked.  If he had been too gentle, Ennis would not have budged.  but a command, he followed.  they slept.

Jack pulls Ennis's hand over him, Ennis crashes away in fighting mode, even though still drunk and tired and Jack immediately assumes a fight position, sits bolt upright, grabs Ennis's jacket in his fist and holds him there... quietly... steady...
   1) to control Ennis and his explosive and dangerous fight impulses
   2)  but also to make it look like Jack himself was as innocent as the driven snow, like Ennis was doing something unnacceptable to him!!  (Has this been pointed out?)  So, it would look like Jack was holding Ennis off.

If this is true it is masterful strategy on Jack's part.  This leaves Ennis confused, muddled in his already inebriated state.

In seconds that Jack was probably counting, 100, 200, timing was everything, Jack rips his own jacket off... in a move that startled and confused Ennis... (it startled me) that was the whole idea.
if he moved too soon he'd get decked.. if he waited too long, Ennis would be fully awake and the moment would be lost... Jack whispered barely audible sounds... this switched Ennis's focus on Jack's words, f**k me (right?  to soothe and seduce Ennis).... Jack's next moves were also urgent and the urgency caught like wildfire on Ennis.

He knew the moment he had him.  Powerful stuff.  The bull unleashed.

I have never seen anything like this in my life.  If only he could have used strategy like this to convince Ennis it could work for them forever.  But he sold out.  Jack became lost in his love for Ennis.  Urgent, needy, he let Ennis play him like a fiddle... on a short leash.  The long term picture was controlled by Ennis. Jack did not have the confidence to test Ennis's love. 

Painful to see Jack's shining star, his brilliant mind, be run by Ennis, the bull in the china closet.

Masterful timing, anyway, Jack, you sexy thing. 

The rest is well detailed by you all right here, so beautifully.

I like how Jack managed to bring this about with the unmanageable, explosive, straight and strong Ennis who might have torn him apart and wedged them apart forever.

Jack took a horrible risk and succeeded in something not every man could pull off.  He had no strategy for the long term, but he knew how to break the bull down for the first sex.

He can't cook, shoot, sing or rodeo, but wow did he get a bead on Ennis, timing his moves, masterminding his strategy and bringing him down.  Very, very powerful stuff.  What brilliant manipulation.  It would not be easy or even possible for any man to get to Ennis.  One would have to be as furtive and hungry a hunter as a cat with single-minded purpose.

This is the scene I can watch over and over and also SNIT.

And, the bull did not get his breakfast in the morning because the mastermind was sleeping.  ha.
Some camp tender.  Ennis was so bewildered.  The following night Ennis apologizes to Jack.  Jack the Innocent.  I didn't hear his apology.

love this movie....

tamlynn

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #290 on: Apr 15, 2007, 08:47 PM »
Whoa, Tamlynn -- love your post!  Made me hot just reading it.  There was such powerful stuff going on there, and your perspective on Jack's moves is fascinating.  And poetic.  Both men are such facted personalities, and it is so beautiful how they did manage to come together and then discover it was love that they felt...  But first, the sex.  And all the dynamics which you mentioned.

I appreciate your going through these threads and bringing them up again.  I just love to talk about it all still.

kathy
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #291 on: Apr 29, 2007, 03:36 AM »
Well I choose personally to think of Ennis being *led* rather than manipulated, down a path that he was intrigued by, questioning but only in his mind at that point.  Think at some point Ennis felt very aware that he was attracted to Jack, another man.  Could'nt shake it off, it felt strangely right somehow to him, I felt . He was thinking along those lines at least, struggling with conflicts deep inside him. He needed to please Jack his freind and "teacher" .  Ennis for once in his life felt close to someone somebody who did'nt judge him or reject his quiet, bashful manner. Did'nt brand him backwards or boring. In fact just the opposite . Jack showed Ennis acceptance of himself as he was  allowing Ennis to open up more .  Jack, I beleive felt those *vibes* from Ennis, that Ennis may be in need of a lesson in what those feelings mean as he had them himself for sure, + obviously more knowledge /experience or more awareness of what the act entails. In FNIT it  was Jack who initiated the whole thing I feel it was only the unexpected timing of the whole thing that threw Ennis off. His instincts were right giving Ennis (the virgin)  an opportunity ( be careful what ya ask for Ennis!)  to act on the feelings he knew or suspected Ennis had. Maybe they could'nt really define what was happening but they went with what they felt to do. MO
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #292 on: Apr 30, 2007, 09:55 AM »
I agree that it is not really a case of manipulation, but I do think both of them took advantage of circumstances whenever circumstances allowed for such "openings". 

I think this is how it is in real life, no?  Success in love depends many times on one's willingness to sieze the moment and follow the trail of possibilities. 

I think this was at the core of Jack's presentiments about Ennis.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #293 on: Apr 30, 2007, 10:13 AM »
Seizing the moment involves the capacity to take risks. Well, Jack had that - it got him Ennis but also got him killed.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #294 on: May 01, 2007, 08:06 AM »
Seizing the moment involves the capacity to take risks. Well, Jack had that - it got him Ennis but also got him killed.

Yes, in this regard, Ennis was much more conservative than Jack.  The ability of Jack to take risks probably killed him in the end, but the possibility of this happending did not seem to stop him from trying to fulfill his dreams.

A dreamer yes, but Jack was also a risk-taker.  A dreamer who does not take risks might as well be awake.