Author Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...? (Read 166208 times)

welshwitch · « **Reply #90 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 12:16 PM »

Calculating doesn't really come into it when passion is involved - I like Jake's image of taking a deep breath and just diving into cold water as a good way of expressing what happens during FNIT.

Rosie · « **Reply #91 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 01:05 PM »

Thanks Aintfoolin,
I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jack might have been on the mountain by himself the previous year, that would sort of blow my theory out of the water wouldn't it! It's nice to have people to discuss this movie with! Reading these posts, I find so many things that I hadn't thought of, and so many new ways to enjoy the movie.
Rosie.

welshwitch · « **Reply #92 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 02:11 PM »

In fact Jack says the sheep were killed in a lightning storm. Presumably he was sheltering in a tent away from them. It seems to me possible that he was alone, though whether Aguirre would have left one young guy on his own with so many sheep is debatable. It makes more sense for there to be two people there, and Annie Proulx says that that was what usually happened.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #93 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 03:49 PM »

Hi Rosie

Thanks for a great first post

You could well be right about Jack's previous experience having been on Brokeback(I'm sure he'd had some sort of experience before), I can't imagine there was much of a gay scene in Lightning Flat

Jack definitely looks kind of shifty when Aguirre's talking about the previous year's loss, and the way he decides that it's Jack, rather than Ennis, he wants sleeping with the sheep, suggests he's trying to "punish" Jack somehow.He says it's because of "predator loss" that he wants Jack with the sheep,but seeing as how Jack couldn't hit a barn door from 10 paces, never mind a coyote in the dark, Jack doesn't seem like the logical choice

As for the contrast between FNIT and SNIT, as I've said before in other threads, Jack is the sort of person who had no problem separating love from sex, so he was quite happy to just have raw, faceless sex with Ennis,if that's all Ennis was prepared to give, but he probably thought all his Christmases had come at once in SNIT

gimmejack · « **Reply #94 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 04:28 PM »

its xmas everyday on BBM!!!

CherryCake · « **Reply #95 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 08:40 PM »

Rosie, Welcome!!!

And I like your style... I have had similiar thoughts on Jack's previous year on BBM and you summed iit up much better than I could have! Thanks for getting all thinking about Jack and his prior experience!

ksxks · « **Reply #96 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 12:37 AM »

Quote from: christie wood on Jul 05, 2006, 08:59 AM

Great post amtamburo, and I agree, its hard to keep a post short sometimes when we get to talking about our favourite boys.....

I think Jack had an inkling about Ennis from the beginning, he was the more wordly wise one of the two, and he was attracted to Ennis from day one, IMO. As far as Ennis making a move on Jack, I dont think he would have. Far too repressed and not able to articulate any of his feelings, never mind show them. But - something struck me when watching the FNIT, when they first spring apart after Ennis wakes up and discovers where Jack has his hand - when Jack goes to touch Ennis and has his hands on his face, Ennis does the same, I always find this really sweet and quite romantic, even though this isnt a particularly romantic scene (as compared to SNIT anyway) - Ennis obviously feels something for Jack, and wants to touch him in the way that Jack is touching him. I think this is the moment when Jack realises that Ennis is interested, because they stay like that for a while, and Ennis doesnt move or take Jack's hands off him. Its a very telling moment in this scene, IMO. And of course, it leads to Jack taking the lead and initiating the sex......

Oh yes, Christie -- this particular moment of this particular scene is really telling and wonderful. Just as you described -- Ennis also clutching onto Jack after Jack first grabs at Ennis's jacket. Actually (though I'm not absolutely certain of this since I haven't watched it recently (not since three days ago

how it happens at the very beginning is really great -- Ennis pushes Jack away almost simultaneously with grabbing onto him. Pushes first and immediately grabs and holds onto him. Even when Ennis says "whudyadoin?" he hasn't moved away -- their foreheads are together. Ennis stays right where he is when Jack lets go of him and takes off his jacket...then there's the "fastest one-handed unbuckling and unzipping in the West." Anyway, another moment I love is when Ennis puts his hand...how do you say it...outstretched, open-handed...on Jack's hair, then clutches his fingers into Jack's hair. That moment, to me, is showing, okay, he has given into his wanting this too.

Of course, this is best on full-screen version, the flipping Jack over, pulling down Jack's jeans, getting himself ready...and all the rest.

Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #97 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 12:40 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 08, 2006, 03:00 PM

It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.

I think this straying to OT...but I'm LOL'ing. YeeHaww indeed! That's one thing I love about these two together (or any equally matched men) is the rough stuff, which is not okay otherwise, when the relationship isn't equal. Ennis with Alma the obvious example.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #98 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 12:44 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 09, 2006, 05:23 AM

Yep, I'm with Froggy on this one. I think it was rough the first time because anything else would have been too much intimacy too soon for Ennis, but I think the SNIT shows more of what it became between them.

I agree about the beautiful non-rough intimacy we saw they had. But, no doubt they would like it rough at times -- just like their fun rough-housing, that in the one case, the morning after SNIT, turned into sweet kisses, and in the other case would have probably also have done so except for the heightened and out-of-control feelings of leaving early...

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #99 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:06 AM »

Quote from: Rosie on Jul 10, 2006, 09:31 AM

This is my first post and I'm nervous - so be kind if you think I'm an idiot or I haven't watched the same movie as you!
I read the short story first so I already knew what was coming when I saw the movie, and because of that, I thought that falling in love with each other just sort of happened unexpectedly for both of them, although in the movie Jack falls first. In that frame of mind, I don't think that Ennis gave him any sign that he could make a move on him sexually. All the signs he gave him were just friendship signs, telling your friend that you are a virgin, trying to get soup because they like it etc., were just signs of a close friendship developing. Jack made a move on Ennis that first time because he knew that HE had fallen for Ennis, Ennis was drunk, and Jack was just drunk enough not to be able to resist the temptation and hope that Ennis would go along with it. No planning just events unfolding naturally.
...
Well there you go - I didn't mean to be that long winded, but once I started - it just kept growing!
I don't always think that is what happened, just sometimes! But then again that is the beauty of this movie, Ang Lee left so much of it a blank canvas that we can all draw our own pictures on!
Hope I haven't bored you!
Rosie.

Welcome Rosie. As far as I'm concerned, you go on as much as you like. I quite enjoyed reading your perspective on this subject. As to one part of it: I'd been wondering lately about Jack's previous summer on Brokeback, so I like your surmises about that. And it is important to come from the proper perspective, as you did in talking about this -- that these were basically inexperienced young rural boys and we can't ascribe (right word?) our perspectives onto them. Sometimes I forget that, kind of.

Not only did Ang Lee do us a favor by leaving so much open to interpretation, but we have here a forum full of wonderful people to interpret! I just love discussing all this.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #100 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:09 AM »

Quote from: Rosie on Jul 10, 2006, 01:05 PM

Thanks Aintfoolin,
I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jack might have been on the mountain by himself the previous year, that would sort of blow my theory out of the water wouldn't it! It's nice to have people to discuss this movie with! Reading these posts, I find so many things that I hadn't thought of, and so many new ways to enjoy the movie.
Rosie.

Doesn't seem to me they would ever send anyone on that job by himself though.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #101 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:11 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 10, 2006, 02:11 PM

In fact Jack says the sheep were killed in a lightning storm. Presumably he was sheltering in a tent away from them. It seems to me possible that he was alone, though whether Aguirre would have left one young guy on his own with so many sheep is debatable. It makes more sense for there to be two people there, and Annie Proulx says that that was what usually happened.

Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer

Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

kathy

gimmejack · « **Reply #102 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 04:04 AM »

Quote

Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

kathy

Interesting point...I never thought about that...another little white lie from Senor Twist??? HMMMMMMMM

tpe · « **Reply #103 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:23 AM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 12, 2006, 04:04 AM

Quote

Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

kathy

Interesting point...I never thought about that...another little white lie from Senor Twist??? HMMMMMMMM

I suspect that Aguirre was making a general observation when he said that -- coming from years of experience that preceded even the previous summer when Jack worked for him for the first time. It may very well be that Aguirre chose to disbelieve Jack's explanation that lightning killed the sheep. The comment by Jack about Aguirre expecting him to control the weather is ambiguous about this point. It is either Aguirre was being unreasonable, or that he did not believe Jack's story.

NoReins · « **Reply #104 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:26 AM »

Yeah, I reckon Aguirre didn't believe Jack - perhaps Jack was neglecting his duties up there the previous summer so the predators really did get the sheep but Jack lied about it because he was scared that Aguirre wouldn't employ him again if he knew the truth?

tpe · « **Reply #105 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:33 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 12, 2006, 07:26 AM

Yeah, I reckon Aguirre didn't believe Jack - perhaps Jack was neglecting his duties up there the previous summer so the predators really did get the sheep but Jack lied about it because he was scared that Aguirre wouldn't employ him again if he knew the truth?

Yes, that possibility -- that Jack lied about the lightning story -- did cross my mind many a time. IT is quite hard to read him during that initial conversation with Ennis at the bar...

welshwitch · « **Reply #106 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:48 AM »

It doesn't seem from the ss, or from the screenplay unless you don't subscribe to the lie with circumstance idea, that Jack was lying. Ir there were a thousand or more shep onthe mountain, and lightning killed forty-two, it's presumably feasible that predators killed more, whether Jack was doing his job or not, and Aguirre got the hump because the total number that came down was low - can't imagine he's be interested in extenuating circumstances. The whole thing, however, might suggest that the previous year Jack had had his mind on other things and was just, at the beginning, doing the same again.

welshwitch · « **Reply #107 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:50 AM »

Hell, now I have a mental picture of mountain ranges all over the West with pairs ( or more) of sheepherders all " stemming the rose" all over the place - sorry, frivolous, in silly mood.

tpe · « **Reply #108 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:57 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 12, 2006, 10:48 AM

It doesn't seem from the ss, or from the screenplay unless you don't subscribe to the lie with circumstance idea, that Jack was lying. Ir there were a thousand or more shep onthe mountain, and lightning killed forty-two, it's presumably feasible that predators killed more, whether Jack was doing his job or not, and Aguirre got the hump because the total number that came down was low - can't imagine he's be interested in extenuating circumstances. The whole thing, however, might suggest that the previous year Jack had had his mind on other things and was just, at the beginning, doing the same again.

Well yes: he could be telling the truth AND it could be that more sheep got killed by cayotes on top of the lightning incident...

FlwrChild · « **Reply #109 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:45 PM »

And the perfectly natural way he said it to Ennis in the bar: "Thought I'd asphyxiate from the smell." Which seems like a detail you'd have from the experience. And then b*tching about Aguirre, which is so typical (and cute) of Jack. I don't think he was lying about the incident. And Aguirre's comment may have been more of a general one or just not remembering the specifics, just that there were losses the year before.

tpe · « **Reply #110 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 07:03 AM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Jul 12, 2006, 10:45 PM

And the perfectly natural way he said it to Ennis in the bar: "Thought I'd asphyxiate from the smell." Which seems like a detail you'd have from the experience. And then b*tching about Aguirre, which is so typical (and cute) of Jack. I don't think he was lying about the incident. And Aguirre's comment may have been more of a general one or just not remembering the specifics, just that there were losses the year before.

Yes, that detail about the smell rings true.

What are we to make of Ennis's look as Jack was telling him this. It is a rather curious look. Incredulity? Part sympathy? Disgust of what it must have been to see 42 dead sheep after a lightning strike?

You need not answer. Sorry, this is perhaps a bit OOT now...

welshwitch · « **Reply #111 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 10:43 AM »

Maybe the expression's incredulity mixed with disgust, which gives Jack the idea that Ennis doesn't' know much about what he's in for up on the mountain, which makes him think he could perhaps make a move on Ennis because he's inexperienced and Jack isn't.

(See how neatly I've dragged this back on to the topic after Some People, one of whom at least Should Know Better, have dragged it off.)

ksxks · « **Reply #112 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 06:37 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 10:43 AM

Maybe the expression's incredulity mixed with disgust, which gives Jack the idea that Ennis doesn't' know much about what he's in for up on the mountain, which makes him think he could perhaps make a move on Ennis because he's inexperienced and Jack isn't.

(See how neatly I've dragged this back on to the topic after Some People, one of whom at least Should Know Better, have dragged it off.)

Ha! LOL'ing! Yes there are Some People who are good at bringing Those People Who Should Know Better back on topic, but those same Some People cause Yet Other People to join in the straying!!

kathy

welshwitch · « **Reply #113 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:45 AM »

At least Some of Us acknowledge our many shortcomings; as far as Leading Others Astray goes, Socrates was condemned for misleading the youth of Athens, as I recall, so Some of Us are in good company.

and perhaps that's why Jack made a move on Ennis - he sensed he was in responsive company. Back on topic!!!

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #114 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 10:49 PM »

i dunno i think it was because they were both really drunk that night and were just doing something they didn't mean to happened but then i just kept occurring and kept leading to more and more stuff

gimmejack · « **Reply #115 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 02:18 AM »

Maybe Mr.Aguirre knew Jack was a terrible shot and blamed him for the "bad predator loss". Jack blamed the weather maybe because he was embarrassed about being a bad shot??? Hmmmmmmm...don't matter...Ennis thought it was cute!!!

stephan · « **Reply #116 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 09:07 AM »

Gimmejack : I like your signature.

gimmejack · « **Reply #117 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 04:24 PM »

Quote from: stephan on Jul 15, 2006, 09:07 AM

Gimmejack : I like your signature.

Thank you...Reading this one, I immediately thought of Ennis as the former and Jack as the latter...the courage to come out and then... :\'( you know the rest...

TexRob · « **Reply #118 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:27 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Jul 12, 2006, 12:37 AM

Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.

Yes, this is breathtaking. That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot.

CherryCake · « **Reply #119 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 10:58 PM »

Quote from: TexRob on Jul 20, 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote from: ksxks on Jul 12, 2006, 12:37 AM
Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.

Yes, this is breathtaking. That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot.

Oh, yes, you are so right! There is no doubt about what is about to take place when Jack in on all fours...I love that Ang Lee did not shy away from this scene, while at the same time having some discretion on this very intimate scene. Look how the camera roams from Ennis to Jack and then back to Ennis, trying to drink it all in.
Oh, and Jack knew what he wanted from when he first got a look at Ennis. He made a move when Ennis showed a little sign of interest, IMO....