Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?

[ksxks]

Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him.  For some reason, those moments really get to me.

Yes, this is breathtaking.  That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot. 

Oh, yes, you are so right! There is no doubt about what is about to take place when Jack in on all fours...I love that Ang Lee did not shy away from this scene, while at the same time having some discretion on this very intimate scene.  Look how the camera roams from Ennis to Jack and then back to Ennis, trying to drink it all in.
Oh, and Jack  knew what he wanted from when he first got a look at Ennis.  He made a move when Ennis showed a little sign of interest, IMO....

This scene was so "shocking" -- I loved and love it myself, but I was so aware, seeing it the first time in the theater, how brazen it was, to show this act in "mainstream" cinema.  I was and am so impressed by, and grateful to, everyone involved that they did this.  Beside it being just plain hot, hot, hot.

And CherryCade, I like what you said about the camera work there -- I hadn't really analyzed that yet; I'm by no means finished "studying" this scene.   

Okay, back on topic.  So you think from minute one that Jack was interested, and waiting until he thought Ennis showed an interest.  I can certainly see that.  When exactly do you think Ennis showed an interest?

So here we are back at "that's more words" and Ennis smiling and Jack flicking his belt buckle and horsing around and then later drinking and singing and...

kathy

[rane99]

It seems to me that Jack was getting signals from Ennis...as well of sending out some of his own.   With the help of a little whiskey, Jack felt he was safe to try something.  it worked!

[aintfoolin]

Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.

[greenfrog]

Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.

He sure did     

[Patriot1]

Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.

I think I would agee with that. But, at the same time I think Jack got a lot more that night than he expected to.

[greenfrog]

Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.

I think I would agee with that. But, at the same time I think Jack got a lot more that night than he expected to.

I doubt he expected anything to happen.

[Short Leash]

Oh this was a very fun thread to read. I know it's and oldie but, a goodie. 

[tpe]

Just because this topic is old does not mean that the discussion has been exhausted.      You think about this topic and think about how it happens in real life.  Many times, you just know...

[Condiments]

Just because this topic is old does not mean that the discussion has been exhausted.      You think about this topic and think about how it happens in real life.  Many times, you just know...

I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.

(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.!  Last I looked, I was a Cassie!

Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew...

Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.

The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!

Shelley

[JBron10544]

I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.

JBron10544

[ksxks]

I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.

(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.!  Last I looked, I was a Cassie!

Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew...

Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.

The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!

Shelley

A lot of that seems to go on here!

Well, Jack being the way he apparently was, gay or wanting to be (do we actually know he'd been with men before? or just was inclined that way?)...when he saw who he would be spending the summer with, the Marlboro Man, he would definitely be inclined to start thinking in those terms from the start.  Then that full-moon-to-full-moon, and the wonderful camaraderie and fun they were having -- and even getting Ennis to talk -- and Ennis's remark that he "ain't yet had the opportunity," and drinking that night, and Ennis coming in the tent...well yeah. 

As I may have said elsewhere, though, it is kind of curious that he put Ennis's hand on him, instead of turning over and touching Ennis.  But I guess this was another of those things that let Ennis not be queer.  If Jack got him off with his hand that night, that isn't the kind of man Ennis could accept he was.  Not yet.

I always wonder who Jack was with the year before and what went on between them.  I'm thinking it wasn't anything like this 1963 summer.  Maybe a nice young religious man or something who didn't brook no funny-business?

kathy

[ksxks]

I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.

JBron10544

A different form of gaydar Jack might have had -- maybe he felt that with his charms, he could get to this "straight" guy.  Sure willing to give it a try.  If Ennis had punched him out that FNIT, he could have claimed he was asleep when he did that.  Right.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

Well I have recently watched the scene in which Jack pulled Ennis's hand onto his erection and I am  convinced after watching in slo mo that maybe Jack was'nt asleep at all . I think he did expect something to happen that night from the moment Ennis gave him that look after confessing his virginity to him . I think he knew he would make it happen.
I may be wrong but this is my opinion.

[welshwitch]

So you think he waited for a chance to call him in then pretended to be asleep till Ennis wa, then started what he's meant to do all the time? Sounds plausible - depends whther you think that when you see Jack he's JG acting being asleep while awake ( which he must have been in reality) or JG acting Jack not being asleep but pretending to be...that's nice and complicated.

[Short Leash]

I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance. That was the only thing I could figure. I was a little dumb at first cuz, I didn't realize what Jack was even doing, I thought he was just cold and need Ennis to put his arm around him. It wasn't until Ennis jumped up that I caught on. 

[greenfrog]

I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance.

And if all else fails, Jack could just claim that he was drunk 

[ksxks]

I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance. That was the only thing I could figure. I was a little dumb at first cuz, I didn't realize what Jack was even doing, I thought he was just cold and need Ennis to put his arm around him. It wasn't until Ennis jumped up that I caught on. 

You innocent babe -- funny.  Then you "had" to watch what followed!

It seems we've established that the Water Walking Jesus scene was not the same day as FNIT, but like the day before or so.  But nonetheless, they have the interchange about "sinner...never had the opportunity," and Jack laughs that gorgeous little Jack Nasty laugh, and Ennis looks at him straight on with the most flirtatious look.  So they certainly were at the least flirting around with innuendo before that FNIT.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.

[NoReins]

I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.

I'd like to know that too...I've never had any reason to think that they were different days

[tpe]

I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.

JBron10544

Welcome, JBron10544.  I have been wrong at times, but even then, I immediately know that I have been wrong.  It is quite uncanny...

[tpe]

I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.

(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.!  Last I looked, I was a Cassie!

Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew...

Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.

The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!

Shelley

Shelley, thank you and congratulations. 

Was Jack fumble with the rodeo clown?  He seemed to have read Randall accurately enough (not surprising, considering the hot stares he got from Randall).

His move on Ennis in the FNIT was comparatively bold.  Perhaps Jack just couldn't help himself, and yet you sensed that he was not going to back down in that scene -- as if he knew he would get what he wanted.

[tpe]

I always wonder who Jack was with the year before and what went on between them.  I'm thinking it wasn't anything like this 1963 summer.  Maybe a nice young religious man or something who didn't brook no funny-business?

kathy

I had wondered whether Jack was alone the previous summer.

Was it Jack's first time?  Hard to say.  He looked more experienced.  But even Ennis didn't need an instruction manual. 

Nonetheless, it appreas that Jack was more deliberate in his desire for Ennis.   He could have been grappling with this before, although I don't know whether this was really what the short story wanted us to think.  THe film was a bit more suggestive in this regard.

[ksxks]

I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.

I'd like to know that too...I've never had any reason to think that they were different days

Darn it -- wish you hadn't asked me that.  See, I always thought that it was the same day, the Jack-singing scene leading into the lying around wasted later that night, leading into FNIT.

Aha -- I just remembered!  Never mind!  I should have known better to say something I wasn't certain of amongst fanatical multiple-viewers with sponge memories.  What was established (by others, not me) was that SNIT was not the next night from FNIT, that's what it was.  Sorry!

I don't watch the movie enough in chronological order, so I get confused.  Plus the way it was shot, with close-ups then long shots from all different angles --  sometimes I think it doesn't even look like the same camp -- for instance, from the Jack-singing, through a bunch of other scenes, to the horsing around in the morning through Aguirre's binoculars.  It all looks different.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

There are several scenes leading up to FNIT that show the sky . By the way it looks to me is that they moved the sheep to higher ground very early that morning. The sun is very bright in this scene. Then they find a new campsite and set it up. This is where Ennis is  "fixing"  the  tent and Jack is playin....well  practicing whatever his harmonica song. ( by the way, does anyone recognize this tune?) it appears to be late afternoon. Then Jack is siinging but it's getting later into the evening.They talk about reigion (or Jacck's mother's beleifs to be exact) Ennis confesses to Jack in so many words that he's still a virgin. At that,  Jack offers Ennis more whiskey. I don't know the amount of time it took Ennis to consume the bottle but by now it's dark and Ennis is totally wasted. The full moon shot and what follows including  the previous scenes appear to be one  continuous string of events to me  This is IMHO.

[Short Leash]

The full moon shot and what follows including  the previous scenes appear to be one  continuous string of events to me  This is IMHO.

That's what it seemed like to me too. But, I'm not sure why it makes a difference whether it was the same day or not on Jack's making a move on Ennis. 

[aintfoolin]

I was responding to an earlier comment from Kathy who said that it had been established that the Water Walkin Jesus scene and FNIT  happened on  two seperate  days. She has since made herself clear on the matter. Thanks.

[aintfoolin]

What makes the diference to me is that this scene contains the strongest indicators that Ennis feels more for Jack than just a casual friendship. The comment about "you may be a sinner" is a matter of not what he said but the way he said it . And that look!  When Jack hands him the whiskey, the way he looks at Jack is a dead giveaway to me. It's as if he's contemplating something . I think Jack picked up on this and ..well let's just  say he tested  his theory.

[tpe]

I got the impression that the "Pentecost" scene up to the FNIT scene were contiguous.  I guess there is no iron-clad reason to say that this is so, but this is indeed my impression.   Although BBM spans about 20 years, I tend to think in terms of the "Unities" when it comes to many of the contiguous scenes.

[welshwitch]

I'd always assumed it was a connected series of events flowing from at least the point where they are drinking. The "Water-WalkingJesus" thing seems to me to be a time when they're starting to lose control; by the time we see them by the fire they're drunk, though Jack less so than Ennis, then FNIT happens because their inhibitions are lessened and the events that follw could be blamed on being drunk if they later want to disown their actions.

It also seems to me that while Ennis knows what he's saying with "I've not yet had the opportunity", Jack is totally aware of the implications and processes that before the later invitation into the tent. Jack appears to drink without getting as drunk as Ennis, who can barely stand; this also suggests to me that Jack is the more experienced of the two, and I ttransfer that to his being sexually more experienced too.

[aintfoolin]

I agree. The whiskey was a major factor . It helped Ennis become a little more bolder and Jack more seductive. In the scenes where they are drinking, Ennis is more relaxed and talkative than usaal for sure.  The use of alcohol played a big part in this whole encounter. I also agree that Jack was more sexually experienced than Ennis. His actions in the tent suggests to me that this aint his first rodeo. He knew the art of seduction very well  which in Jack's case could work on a  man or a  woman. Definitley.