Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?

[welshwitch]

That's what shows it's the real thing - not just eros but agape.

[ksxks]

I've always thought that it's  much more than sex with Jack . Sacrifice and love went hand in hand for him . He did alot of it in this film, some large, some small.  including  FNIT IMO. He had fallen in love and wanted to show Ennis who he was.Jack knew Ennis was a virgin and HE  wanted to be his first lover. When Ennis stopped resisting and  gave in to his seduction  he knew he had made the right move , although he knew Alma waited in the wings, Ennis was his. he was even more convinced  in SNIT when Ennis came to HIM .in a sweet surrender.

Lovely words, painting such a beautiful picture, aintfoolin.  I don't know that we've focussed very much on Ennis being a virgin, with men anyway.  In other m/m pairings I've known, this is a really special element -- usually more special when it is the first time with a man for both of them.  But I loved just thinking about how beutiful it is that Jack wanted to, and got to be, Ennis's first lover.  First, breaking the barriers with the raw sex of FNIT.  And then, face to face (at least what we see) SNIT.  Ennis's surrender -- so beautiful.  I love surrender.  Besides the way he came into the tent and let Jack show him what to do, I just love how he urges Jack to turn over and be on top, and this is very surrender-ish, very beautiful.  Especially that moment when he just lets his arms fall to the side...do with me what you will, Jack.  Oh, I'm getting all mushy here...  What thread am I on?

kathy

[ksxks]

Did any of you get the feeling that in the first moments of the FNIT, Jack was prepared to take either role (active or passive) with Ennis?  His unbuckling his belt made me initially think he was about to take the active role.  But he submitted himself to the passive role when Ennis responded.  Yes, I think Jack wanted to offer himself up to Ennis that very moment.  He knew he was Ennis's first lover, and wanted that moment to be an expereince that Ennis would cherish.  But Ennis was too rough on the edges at this point, sothe act didn't turn out the way Jack had perhaps wanted.  I think it was in the SNIT that we see him attempting this: taking possession of Ennis in a way that nurtured him.

I can sure see this, Thomas, that Jack could have gone either way, depending on Ennis's response.  I'm thinking, though, that he wasn't overly worried about it being all perfect and loving -- I think however it happened was going to be fine, because the ice just needed to be broken.  If Ennis had been really shy, then Jack could easily have taken over.  But the way Ennis wanted what he wanted and proceeded to take it -- this was probably a major turn-on for Jack also, letting Ennis do him if that's what he wanted.

Then, yes, SNIT was almost really their first time -- consciously and soberly loving each other and finding out how they wanted to do that.  Except we don't know.  So we can only surmise...and surmise we do. 

kathy

[aintfoolin]

I agree with you Kathy on this. Jack was gonna take it anyway he could get it at this point. He was just so in love with him by that time and wanted Ennis that bad ,and Ennis soon discovered what he'd been missing!  A serious love relationship and excellent sex.

[Brokeback_1]

Jack would have let Ennis top, bottom, masturbate, get oral ---whatever Ennis wanted, Jack would have been ok with.

jack wanted Ennis. Anyway he could get him. And i still think the booze provided the actual impetus, w/o it they would have circled one another forever.

[aintfoolin]

Some people say that without the booze nothing would have happened,I disagree with this. Would Jack and Ennis have done what they did  eventually without being drunk? True, the whiskey no doubt lowered their inhibitions but I think even without the booze eventually somebody would have made a move ( probably Jack) by the way they felt about each other, and the  progressive nature of the feelings in the relationship, It would have had them doing the same thing sooner....or later. Booze or no booze.This is IMHO

[tpe]

I suspect that alcohol was used (knowingly or subconsciously) by both of them to reach their intended goal.  Yes, for me, it was just a matter of time.  For me, it was not alcohol that really made it happen -- it was simply used as a means to achieve a desired end.

[Brokeback_1]

I don't think 'nothing' would have happened if they didn't have all that booze, but IMO it would have taken much longer, longer then the time they had on BBM. Just a male point of view, and that's what we're speaking of-- a M/M relationship between 2 macho 19 year olds. They may have wanted each other badly, yet IMO fear would have held them back. They drank like fish up there lol. And with guys like that booze brings everything out, you do things which cold sober you would never have the nerve to do. Now me and my 1 and only BF, we didn't have any booze. It was not just an AHA moment when we set eyes on each other, it was a Holy Shit!!!!! Jack-Twist-in Aguirre's-parking-lot moment. It took damned near 2 years w/o booze lololol.

[aintfoolin]

I clearly understand what you are saying although I think the setting was also a contributing factor to what transpired between these two. Isolated on Brokeback mountain, with no distractions except a thousand sheep and blue birds singing it was the perfect setting to fall in love and get it on. ultimately the feelings were there, and so was the booze .  These two factors definitly played a big part in this whole process hand in hand IMO. Thanks.

[tpe]

Alcohol is here the vehicle under which their inhibitions are trampled underfoot.

[Brokeback_1]

You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.

[greenfrog]

Alcohol is here the vehicle under which their inhibitions are trampled underfoot.

Alcohol helped release the repressed side of Ennis . . . With a little help from Jack.

[tpe]

You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.

Well, I should thank everyone here for such interesting ideas. 

I really didn't get the impression that Ennis and Jack were helpless drunkards, although both seemed to have been fairly good drinkers.  I think their use of alcohol was very calculated.  Sure, a lot of times, it was for leisure (like smokes, for example).  IN the case of Jack, his drinking certainly had a darker side, revealed by Lureen in the end.  For Ennis, it also served as a way to face up to (or forget?) certain things that were just too tough to handle by the light of day, so to speak; specifically: his love for Jack.

So in this sense, alchohol did play a part in fighting off their inhibitions and fears.

[Mars]

You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.

Well, I should thank everyone here for such interesting ideas. 

I really didn't get the impression that Ennis and Jack were helpless drunkards, although both seemed to have been fairly good drinkers.  I think their use of alcohol was very calculated.  Sure, a lot of times, it was for leisure (like smokes, for example).  IN the case of Jack, his drinking certainly had a darker side, revealed by Lureen in the end.  For Ennis, it also served as a way to face up to (or forget?) certain things that were just too tough to handle by the light of day, so to speak; specifically: his love for Jack.

So in this sense, alchohol did play a part in fighting off their inhibitions and fears.

Yes, Thomas, that's true for a lot of people,indeed!!!

[tpe]

Yes, Mars.  I do think a lot of people drink to forget, no?   Nothing wrong with that, except that for Ennis and Jack and a lot of people, problems don't go away when they sober up...

[welshwitch]

I suppose I agree that the setting had a lot to do with it too - they are completely isolated, particularly at night - when Aguirre comes up it's only in times of emergency and in the middle of the day. No-one can see them, no-one is ever going to have to know what happens there - there must be a sense of being free, not "cabinn'd, cribb'd, confin'd, bound in" by the expectations and critical observations of others.If they get drunk, no-one's going to comment adversely; the same thing applies if they fall in love.

There's also the fact that they are very much dependent on each other for companionship, help and protection.

[Brokeback_1]

Well I'm off topic with this but every recovering alcoholic I know said Jack Twist looked like he needed Alcoholics Anonymous lol. [ That boy really needs a meeting' was the general comment rofl] He was no stereotypical hopeless drunkard  yet most aren't. He kept  the job, etc. He had all the signs up on BB and from Lureen's comment--'He drank a LOT.' it seems as if was born out; by the end he certainly drank alcoholically--which does not mean he was incapable of functioning at all,  and his wife had no doubts on it. When someone says 'He drank a LOT' the person in question tends to have a problem.

It's a trap, at first it removes inhibitions then it becomes 'one of the two things I need right now.' If you need it, you have a problem. And the way he drank that whiskey --especially at the end of the short story--defined a problem. Several problems. AP said something about his drinking as well, back in October.
 
I said in another post that the alcohol lubricated their romance, made it easier for the move to be made. Personally I'd like to think they'd have jumped each other without it but have doubts about that road...they were hot for each other yet scared, very scared. If Jack had made a move sober there might have been a different outcome. Fear adds a need for time, and they hardly had any, especially with Aguirre telling them to 'take em down' a month early.

Who knows, it's all conjecture, but the conjecture often leads to real insight.

[tpe]

Personally,  I suspect that Jack was sober in the FNIT.  Everything seemed to indicate that this was the case.  The way he picked himself up and got Ennis a blanket before turning himself in, the fact that he tied the tent flaps securely, and the fact that he was disturbed by Ennis chattering from the cold -- all seemed to indicate that he was not drunk.  Contrast this with Ennis, who couldn't even stand up when it was time to go back to the sheep.

I think I mentioned before that I believe that Jack engineered this all along -- to get Ennis drunk while he himself took care to remain reasonably sober.  When Jack took Ennis's hand, I suspect that he did this with full possession of his faculties-- not as a drunken faux pas.  I would even say that he was calculating -- trying to get Ennis into the tent and finally making his move.

Jack's alcoholism appeared later -- much later: when it gradually dawned on him year after frustrating year that he can never get Ennis to consent to a shared life together.  At this stage - alcohol was the symptom of the real problem, and not the cause.

Finally, I should also say that I believe that Ennis probably got himself drunk intentionally.  He needed the courage, perhaps, to go along with Jack's plans.    Whether this was intentional or subconscious does not matter too much.  Ennis used drink to steel himself for the moment he himself desired most deeply.

[Brokeback_1]

That is something I have always raised an eyebrow at. Jack was drinkin, sure enuff, and he was lying back, same as Ennis. Yet he was MUCH more sober-appearing then Ennis prior to FNIT, just as you point out Thomas... The scene where' guys like us march off to hell...'--when Ennis replies that he hasn't yet had the opportunity on his face, as Jack responds, well, Ennis has  this half smirky knowing look. He all but gives Jack' That Look', the one which says I know where you're at, and look at the glances he gives Jack.....

. Jack symbolically hands him the apple in the Garden of Eden, in this case a bottle of whiskey. Ennis accepts, and Jack looks delighted, absolutely elated, go back and check out that brilliant & nodding 'yeahyeahyeah okIGOTIT, cowboy!' smile on the DVD.

It's as if Jack knew--which he may have--and stayed sober, allowing Ennis to get completely sh*tfaced drunk. He understood EDM well enough by then to know in his gut that Ennis needed a shove and something to reduce his fear. Because --and you pointed this out--when he handed EDM that blanket he looked very sober. And he sounded dashed when Ennis said he would curl up by the fire. Jack may have simply had enough and said to hell with this, time to make that move.

You have me thinking here dude.....I always thought Jack was simply responding to Ennis' admission that he hadn't much experience, hadn't had the opportunity. But now, well what do you think on this??
Jack

[tpe]

Brokeback_1, have you been in an situation like this before with someone?  Truthfully, I know I have.  Which is why I can't help thinking that Jack did it this way.  So perhaps I am thniking this way by way of extension of my own experiences.  Please don't judge me too harshly. 

Although Jack was never shown to be drunk in any of the later scenes, I suspect that he must have been quite a serious case in the end.  Lureen's bried mention of it in her conversation with Ennis probably understated the reality. 

It's a sad contrast to Jack of the FNIT, who had the will and the way to get what he wanted. 

[Brokeback_1]

Yep, I've been there. No apologies are necessary, both the film and book were designed to make the viewer/reader get answers from their own experiences and hearts.

W/O booze it took us 2 years of peeling potatos. And that's AFTER a true HOLY CRAP!!! moment when we were introduced! After what i can only call a campfire scene[ lol ]it took a few weeks, but then neither of us was together on a mountain. When it DID happen it was along the lines of enough allready, I got thrown into a wall with a reunion kiss. He was the coolest guy, I once told him in real bafflement that i didn't understand why all these people tended to go after me and he fell on the floor said 'don't change. please stay  dumb' rofl.

So jack seduced ennis!!! what a courtship....

[tpe]

Yep, I've been there. No apologies are necessary, both the film and book were designed to make the viewer/reader get answers from their own experiences and hearts.

W/O booze it took us 2 years of peeling potatos. And that's AFTER a true HOLY CRAP!!! moment when we were introduced! After what i can only call a campfire scene[ lol ]it took a few weeks, but then neither of us was together on a mountain. When it DID happen it was along the lines of enough allready, I got thrown into a wall with a reunion kiss. He was the coolest guy, I once told him in real bafflement that i didn't understand why all these people tended to go after me and he fell on the floor said 'don't change. please stay  dumb' rofl.

So jack seduced ennis!!! what a courtship....

Thanks, Brokeback_1, for sharing this.  When we think of our expereinces about making the first move, some of it strikes me as quite awkward.  I suspect that there is no tried and tested way to go about this -- except that alcohol must have played a part in a lot of people's individual expereinces.

Perhaps other people may disagree with the idea that Jack seduced Ennis.  I do think there is a grain of truth to this idea of seduction.  But there is the other side of the coin: technically, you don't seduce the willing. 

[aintfoolin]

True enough, but don't you agree Brokeback and tpe that drinking does not always lead to drunkeness.?  That there are different degrees of drunkiness?  Ennis was drunk, no doubt, (although he did have a little "nap" there before Jack grabbed him), but Jack probably had just enough in his system to feel bolder, and relaxed but he was'nt falling down drunk like Ennis , therfore he was able to think pretty much clearly.
I think that Jack was very seductive in FNIT, though Jack did'nt know at first that Ennis would be willing to participate. His gestures ( placing Ennis's hand on his erection, the nuzzling forehead, and that look ( "you want this")  in those big blue eyes sealed the deal for Ennis I think.Where there's a wii, there a way as the saying goes, Jack took it to a new level in my opinion.

[tpe]

Hello aintfoolin.  Yes, I agree.  And as I said, I believe that Jack did things with great deliberation here.  He just drank enough to bolster enough courage to see things through.

There must have been someting n Ennis's eyes, something in his touch, that signalled Jack that he had won.  This is clear when he decided to start unbuckling.  Well, maybe Jack couldn't help himself.  Jack the seducer was too drunk with passion (not alcohol) to pull himself back from the edge of the precipice.  He so wanted to jump. The seducer was himself helpless to resist.

[aintfoolin]

Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it.  it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons  and  removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.

[tpe]

Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it.  it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons  and  removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.

Dear God, I had not noticed this.  aintfoolin, I must look at this carefully.  That is indeed quite a deliberate action.  Very bold, even for someone with Jack's experience.

The art of seduction is isndeed an Art.  WE often say that the FNIT was so rough and tumble. 

Now, I think it has a severe underlying grace.

[Brokeback_1]

I always thought there was a 'severe and underlying grace' in that scene, and that's a beautiful phrase. I called it a grim teenaged determination to show love with grace. Yours is much better lol.

The grace was there in SNIT, for all to see.

[aintfoolin]

So true Brokeback and tpe. Their movements, gestures, and  eye contact and the silence all gave it a graceful flow.An "underlying grace"  indeed .Beutifully said.

[NoReins]

Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it.  it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons  and  removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him.

I noticed that the second time I watched, aintfoolin. I think by that point he knows that Ennis isn't going to hit him or run out of the tent so he moves Ennis's hand both to let him know exactly what he wants and, perhaps, to try to get Ennis aroused too, assuming that he wasn't already.

[tpe]

THe FNIT is on the surface quite awkward, but I don't doubt that every motion had its place, every glance its significance.

In the SNIT, each of them seemed to know what was expected of them, as if everything was preordained.