Author Topic: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?  (Read 166116 times)

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #240 on: Dec 31, 2006, 01:03 AM »
Dear God, I had not noticed this.  aintfoolin, I must look at this carefully.  That is indeed quite a deliberate action.  Very bold, even for someone with Jack's experience.

The art of seduction is isndeed an Art.  WE often say that the FNIT was so rough and tumble. 

Now, I think it has a severe underlying grace.


You are so right, T., and beautiful words.  FNIT not just a drunken fumble, but replete with that art of seduction.  I want to go back and look at that if I can see that Jack takes Ennis's hand again when they are forehead-to-forehead, before he unbuckles.

As to drinking...  I've been sober 21 years, but I certainly put in my time drinking, and grew up in a drinking household and in drinking times with drinking friends, etc.  There's drinking, and there's high, tipsy, which doesn't mean drunk.  I really don't think they drank all that much.  Around the campfire every night, that's just what you did.  I certainly did that on all my camping trips back then.  I think Jack's drinking "a lot" was later, as others have mentioned.

But as to that night, FNIT, I think it's as Thomas said, that Ennis drank more than he might have, to give himself that liquid courage so to speak; Jack drank maybe less than he might have, to be sure to make what he wanted to happen happen.

kathy 
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2007, 11:56 PM by ksxks »
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #241 on: Dec 31, 2006, 07:46 AM »
Alcohol certainly worked wonders on Ennis judging from how he became much more talkative after Jack poured him a cup in the earlier scene. Jack seemed amazed. To Ennis it WAS "liquid courage" to say and do things that he otherwise would not. And he knew it. Maybe that's why he drank so much of it before FNIT, but he did fall asleep twice( more like passed out twice) before the actual act went down,so might the effects be lessened some after "sleeping it off a little + plus he was shivering cold which also can have a sobering effect.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

aimi15

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #242 on: Dec 31, 2006, 04:16 PM »
Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it.  it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons  and  removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.
aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.

How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him.  ;)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #243 on: Dec 31, 2006, 05:52 PM »
It also reinforced that Jack knew Ennis felt the same , but  knew he  could'nt seem to express it. .  It 's as if Jack said "I know , and I'll show you how it can begin" His determination to show  Ennis the way he  felt  about him was also amazing.I liked it.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #244 on: Jan 03, 2007, 07:41 AM »
Happy New Year to all of you!!!

I love this thread and just wanted to say that I'm in NYC preparing for our wedding: you have one nervous groom here!! [LOLOL] But I suppose 30 years has been long enough to wait, Katrina and i have loved each other from the day we met, at age 19.

We will get married on Saturday afternoon and then go on a honeymoon; we should be back in Denver by January 20, after which there is a reception given THERE by her mother ....she insisted, it was supposed to be small and has become larger then the wedding reception here in NY; these things make me quite nervous LOL..... so after that one I will be back posting. You will all undoubtedly have written some great things for me catch up with!! If I can, I will visit.....

I hope each and every one of my fellow posters has a wonderful New Year, you yourselves and every member of your families...and Jack and Ennis too!

Love,
Jack.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #245 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:03 AM »
You are so right, T., and beautiful words.  FNIT not just a drunken fumble, but replete with that art of seduction.  I want to go back and look at that if I can see that Jack takes Ennis's hand again when they are forehead-to-forehead, before he unbuckles.

As to drinking...  I've been sober 21 years, but I certainly put in my time drinking, and grew up in a drinking household and in drinking times with drinking friends, etc.  There's drinking, and there's high, tipsy, which doesn't mean drunk.  I really don't think they drank all that much.  Around the campfire every night, that's just what you did.  I certainly did that on all my camping trips back then.  I think Jack's drinking "a lot" was later, as others have mentioned.

But as to that night, FNIT, I think it's as Thomas said, that Ennis drank more than he might have, to give himself that liquid courage so to speak; Jack drank maybe less than he might have, to be sure to make what he wanted to happen happen.

kathy 

Thanks kathy.  I like that term: liquid courage!  Ennis certainly appeared shy in Jack's presence, no?  I remember most that slightly embarrassed smile he had when he was late for the first fishing trip immediately after the reunion trip.  I think he needed something like alcohol to fortify him against being painfully shy with Jack.

So I do think that Ennis didn't exactly make the first move NOT because it didn't enter his mind; rather, he didn;t make the first move becauser he was a bit abashed in Jack's presence.  He certainly gave enough hints to Jack, nonetheless...

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #246 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:06 AM »
aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.

How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him.  ;)

I'm glad I'm not the only one. ;)


Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #247 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:09 AM »
Happy New Year to all of you!!!

OT: A Happy New Year to you too, Jack. Again, congratulations! 

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #248 on: Jan 05, 2007, 12:00 AM »
aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.

How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him.  ;)

I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things.   And you're right.  Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe.  Jeez, what a powerful thing...

kathy
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Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #249 on: Jan 05, 2007, 12:26 AM »
I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things.   And you're right.  Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe.  Jeez, what a powerful thing...

kathy

I went and took a look for myself and it totally happens. I am stunned and giddy. To put it bluntly, that is hot. Because the whole time after Jack puts Ennis's hand back there Ennis is staring at Jack's face and Jack is staring right back. It's incredible the heat and intensity that is shared in those few seconds. And Jack's heavy breathing after he puts Ennis's hand back on him. Fhew.. get me some cold water ASAP!  :d)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #250 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:08 AM »
.........And after you take a drink, Please pass it to me!  This  is definitley  is hot, actually willing  Ennis into his space with that seductive gaze ,(sssiiggghhhh). This is why I emphasize Jack's BOLD determination to bed Ennis.  To be Ennis's 1rst real lover? How good does it get? Pretty damn good to me. ;)  <^(They're both dreams come true.  :c)  :d)
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #251 on: Jan 05, 2007, 08:47 AM »
The detail about the hand strengthens my admiration for both actors' commitment to veracity and attention to detail.  I don't think Ang Lee went into such detail when directing this scene.

Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #252 on: Jan 05, 2007, 01:59 PM »
The detail about the hand strengthens my admiration for both actors' commitment to veracity and attention to detail.  I don't think Ang Lee went into such detail when directing this scene.


I agree. I would be willing to wager that a lot of this "extra" stuff we are discovering was ad-libbed by Heath and Jake. I salute them for paying such close attention to these things, they are truly revolutionary.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #253 on: Jan 05, 2007, 03:57 PM »
I agree. I would be willing to wager that a lot of this "extra" stuff we are discovering was ad-libbed by Heath and Jake. I salute them for paying such close attention to these things, they are truly revolutionary.

I guess this was also part of Ang Lee's methodology.  I knew that Jake hated it, but came to an understanding of it.

The interplay of FNIT (Jack making his move on Ennis) is so awkward -- true to life, I suppose, as both Heath and Jake were probably guessing how this was to be played out.  Their instincts and good taste were not off the mark.


aimi15

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #254 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:05 PM »
I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things.   And you're right.  Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe.  Jeez, what a powerful thing...

kathy
It has tripled the tension and downright sensuality of this scene for me. Isn't that the beautiful thing about these discussion forums? Chances are i might have never noticed this - i am always concentrating so hard on Ennis' hands clamped to the sides of Jack's head. There is an almost caress there as they search each others eyes that stops my breath in my throat.

First time i saw it i saw quite a brutal sex scene, all these intimate details slipped by. Now i see the beginning of love.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #255 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:11 PM »
Love can indeed be so brutal.    The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it.  What should we expect?  It was the start of their exploration of each other in  the physical sense.  In real life, this can be quite rough.



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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #256 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:26 PM »
Love can indeed be so brutal.    The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it.  What should we expect?  It was the start of their exploration of each other in  the physical sense.  In real life, this can be quite rough.



Thats very true. It would have bben so easy to have made this scene twee, particularly as there isn't THAT much detail in the SS. It's a testament to the screenwriters and Ang that they chose this route instead. Far more realistic (IMHO)

Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #257 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:27 PM »
Love can indeed be so brutal.    The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it.  What should we expect?  It was the start of their exploration of each other in  the physical sense.  In real life, this can be quite rough.




It's just so true to life. Especially for two 19 year old boys one for sure being a virgin at the time. It seems the more I watch this scene the more I become enlightened to the budding romance. Initially it seems like a meaningless quickie between two young boys, but the more you watch the more you see and I am at the point now where I can almost see Ennis coming apart at the seams  and giving in to his desires.

From the minute he jumps up and the way he is still pretty much asleep for those first few seconds, it was something I never noticed before and it was so well played out by Heath. He jumps up and I can't even think of the words to describe it. It's just total disorientation on Ennis's part and then Jack takes Ennis's hand and places it on his erection and looks at his face almost as if to say "I'm yours." After that Ennis wakes up a bit and tries once more to fight it off.

Did anyone else notice the noise their heads make when the put their heads together? It's a loud THUMP and I never heard it until last night. That added even more intensity to the entire scene, it seemed. 

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #258 on: Jan 05, 2007, 04:39 PM »
I had not heard the noise, which doesn't mean much as I was not attentive to this nuance.  Still, the moment of "jumping up" is so violent and gracefully fluid at the same time.  Do you get what I mean by this?


Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #259 on: Jan 05, 2007, 05:08 PM »
I had not heard the noise, which doesn't mean much as I was not attentive to this nuance.  Still, the moment of "jumping up" is so violent and gracefully fluid at the same time.  Do you get what I mean by this?



Yes, I do. Ennis hesitates a minute, even. He opens his eyes and looks and it takes him a minute to realize where his hand is.

Another thing that I just thought about.. when Jack brings up sinner marching off to hell and Ennis responds with saying he hasn't yet had the opportunity, it's funny he used to word "opportunity" instead of just simply saying "You may be a sinner, but I'm not." What possessed Ennis to say he hasn't had the opportunity? Jack seems delighted by his use of the word opportunity, as well I think that was another way he knew to make a move on Ennis, or in this case, give him the "opportunity."

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #260 on: Jan 05, 2007, 05:13 PM »
Yes, I do. Ennis hesitates a minute, even. He opens his eyes and looks and it takes him a minute to realize where his hand is.

Another thing that I just thought about.. when Jack brings up sinner marching off to hell and Ennis responds with saying he hasn't yet had the opportunity, it's funny he used to word "opportunity" instead of just simply saying "You may be a sinner, but I'm not." What possessed Ennis to say he hasn't had the opportunity? Jack seems delighted by his use of the word opportunity, as well I think that was another way he knew to make a move on Ennis, or in this case, give him the "opportunity."
You're absolutely right. In a way i find this quite flirtatious on Ennis' part. Maybe this is on a subconcious level that he himself is not aware of, but the way he says it and the small smile he accompanies it with, and of course the use of the word opportunity makes me think this. Perhaps i am seeing what i want to see - but maybe not...

Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #261 on: Jan 05, 2007, 05:21 PM »
You're absolutely right. In a way i find this quite flirtatious on Ennis' part. Maybe this is on a subconcious level that he himself is not aware of, but the way he says it and the small smile he accompanies it with, and of course the use of the word opportunity makes me think this. Perhaps i am seeing what i want to see - but maybe not...

No, I agree 100%. His choice of words coupled with the look he gives Jack signal flirting to a pretty high degree. Whether or not he was aware at how much that came across as flirting is anyone's guess, but Jack picked up on it really fast and gladly handed the whiskey bottle over to Ennis. Even after Jack hands the bottle over and looks away, Ennis looks back up at him and gives another smile. 

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #262 on: Jan 06, 2007, 01:45 AM »
Maybe we do read alot of double meanings into the dialog but this movie leaves so much left uninterpreted or open to the the veiwers' imagination. Jack says"fellas , like you and me"  ( admitting he was'nt pure in  a religious sense)Ennis says "speak for yourself" "Ive yet to have the opportunity" In religious  (Jack's mom's) context ,sinner meaning taken in "worldly" temptation and pleasures. Was Ennis saying that Jack was more experienced ,as in sexually more experienced? I think so. I doubt that Alma gave him any.  Then he expresses his virginity with the "opportunity" comment. The look,( as has been touched on in  different threads) that accompanied this comment indeed gave us a flirtateous Ennis with emphazes on the chance that Jack might pick up on it ..without really saying  pointedly" Jack , I want the opportunity with you"  He got his point across ....Jack took it as intended. It's the Ennis manner.
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #263 on: Jan 06, 2007, 11:15 AM »
Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?

As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.

Offline carbyville

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #264 on: Jan 06, 2007, 01:25 PM »
Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?

As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.

That struck me as odd. Jack really never came out and said anything about sexual experience but it seems Ennis took it for that and I wonder why. Or was he just taking the chance to let this be known?  :s)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #265 on: Jan 06, 2007, 03:36 PM »
Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidently" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he would'nt be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?)  to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying resoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #266 on: Jan 06, 2007, 05:01 PM »
Yes, I always take Jack's little smile and "hmm" to mean "Oh, really, Well, in that case....."

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #267 on: Jan 06, 2007, 11:40 PM »
Yes!
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #268 on: Jan 07, 2007, 12:27 AM »
Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidentally" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he wouldn't be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?)  to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying reasoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.

aintfoolin:  thanks for your interpretation - I agree with you.  I never realized Ennis had put his hand on Jack's shoulder - I thought he put it on the log, but also thought it was funny that he did it for just a minute - Guess I'll just have to go watch it one more time, for research purposes, you understand. 

For only having one year of high school, Ennis was pretty smart/intuitive.  I didn't really pick up on all these things, but took them for face value until I'd seen the movie a few times.    In the Pentecost scene, I loved the, "Hmmm", and Jack's smile. 

Damn!  After all that, why didn't Jack give him a ride when they left Brokeback?   >:(

Offline ksxks

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Re: How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis...?
« Reply #269 on: Jan 07, 2007, 03:35 AM »
It has tripled the tension and downright sensuality of this scene for me. Isn't that the beautiful thing about these discussion forums? Chances are i might have never noticed this - i am always concentrating so hard on Ennis' hands clamped to the sides of Jack's head. There is an almost caress there as they search each others eyes that stops my breath in my throat.

First time i saw it i saw quite a brutal sex scene, all these intimate details slipped by. Now i see the beginning of love.

Bella Muerte -- me, too, I'm always focused first on the staring down for a moment, the grabbing back and forth, and then on those hands in each other's hair.  (There is one moment of Ennis's hand in Jack's hair that signals to me Ennis's surrender to wanting something to happen -- an almost-caress, as you said.)  But I really didn't realize how overtly things were already progressing right there.  I just wrote about this in the "Jack says f**k me" thread" -- I thought it was merely Jack's taking off his coat and then unbuckling and unzipping that started the whole thing moving forward -- and then Ennis made the instant decision to take what he wanted and turned Jack around -- but there was even more going on than I'd realized.

I too applaud Heath and Jake for working on portraying this realistically.  Probably better that they didn't have actual RL experience with this particular act, or the whole falling in love with a man thing, so it was a kind of acting that kind of wasn't pretending.  Sorry if that doesn't exaclty make sense.

kathy
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