Author Topic: Randall (Read 235266 times)

Mélanos · « **Reply #120 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 11:52 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 09, 2006, 04:31 PM

Thanks Mélanos.

You know, the red wine in that pic is so blood-red. One almost sees in the mind's eye the hunter and the hunted...

The other pendant (Randall is probably looking at Jack, no?):

Waken lords and ladies gay,
To the greenwood haste away;
We can show you where he lies,
Fleet of foot and tall of size;
We can show the marks he made
When 'gainst the oak his antlers frayed;
You shall see him brought to bay;
Waken, lords and ladies gay.

(Sir Walter Scott)

That is exactly that!!! they are going to dance the last dance, the last play of rodeo and guess who is the bull? the same filly that would never throw him...I can already see the little stain of red upon Lureen's finger!
Maybe Randall saw that too, maybe like Jack himself he was so sensitive that he could see death coming and he could stop to make a last try...

I would liike to know as much poetry!

tpe · « **Reply #121 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 06:54 AM »

Jack Twist -- the name is very apt. He rides Love if only to stay on the saddle. Such is the image one sees with respect to Ennis and Randall.

browneyes · « **Reply #122 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 08:08 AM »

But Tpe, do u agree with what I said about Jack looking back at the table?

tpe · « **Reply #123 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 08:21 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 10, 2006, 08:08 AM

But Tpe, do u agree with what I said about Jack looking back at the table?

browneyes, I did notice this, so it is quite plausible. He may have been trying to avoid Randall's intense gaze. Or perhaps he was trying to catch Randall's attention. This is a bit hard to read precisely. But I do think that it is quite plausible.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #124 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 09:04 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 09, 2006, 04:36 PM

And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.

I agree with you here. At one point, while the eye contact is going on, Jack looks at Lureen, and she gives him a cold, nasty look, I think Jack realised she was picking up on the vibes between him and Randall, and thought a bit of space was needed. I'd love to know what Randall and Lureen were talking about while Jack and LaShawn were dancing!

I also don't have a problem with Randall having feelings for Jack (who could blame him?), and I don't have a problem with Jack having Randall as a casual sex partner, I don't think it touches what he has with Ennis. A lot of people can separate sex from love, Jack is one of them, and it doesn't take anything away from his love for Ennis, however many men he sh*gs, imo. What I do have a problem with, is the implication that Jack had any deeper feelings for Randall, beyond sex, and that he planned on moving to Lightning Flat with him, that would take something away from Ennis and Jack's love, so as far as I'm concerned, it never would have happened.

browneyes · « **Reply #125 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 09:30 AM »

I agree. I think Jack just said that out of anger and frustration. Because we all know Jack wouldn't have been happy with Randall. If he was, he would've stopped seeing Ennis when he met Randall in '78.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #126 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 11:36 AM »

Jack did seem to agree to " as long as we can ride it" right? Maybe at some point Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum Not necessarily to be with Randall , but to find someone to share his " sweet life" with After all he's spent years waiting or is he too hopelessly in love with Ennis. Did Jack settle? Personally I don't Jack would have been happy with anyone else but Ennis. Just a thought.

welshwitch · « **Reply #127 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 02:15 PM »

If you're so much in love and so hopelessly, you'll agree to anything. I don't think for a minute his involvement with Randall impinged on Jack's feelings for Ennis; I even think he could have taken him up to Lightning Flat and it still wouldn't have meant much. If Ennis had been ready to commit to him, Jack would have instantly forgotten Randall.

Mélanos · « **Reply #128 on:** Jul 11, 2006, 11:56 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 10, 2006, 11:36 AM

Jack did seem to agree to " as long as we can ride it" right? Maybe at some point Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum Not necessarily to be with Randall , but to find someone to share his " sweet life" with After all he's spent years waiting or is he too hopelessly in love with Ennis. Did Jack settle? Personally I don't Jack would have been happy with anyone else but Ennis. Just a thought.

Imagine, aintfoolin, I suppose your not the kind to be fooled, but would you agree to wander a little? What is this "sweet life", if not the "good life together", the little ranch with cow and calf operation... but Jack is so loose, absent minded when he tell that to Ennis? And when Ennis turn away he does not seem depressed, it is him who comfort Ennis! Maybe Jack the dreamer is anable to dream, to dream alone in fact. Jack is no man of ranch: big car, big watch, big ring... good life mean money and that is what he went in Texas to look after! The man of the little ranch, the Wyoming cowboy is Ennis. Jack is a very sensitive man, he felt the fantasm, the idea of the ranch inside Ennis: that is the dream of Ennis he is telling aloud... and that is the dream Ennis refuses!
Jack can't dream without someone, Ennis, or John, two different way to see the little ranch! two different dreams, life or death!
Jack is not only waiting, he is living by Ennis. Ennis does not let go to the heart of hid dream, inside the ranch, because of the violence he believe there is inside... so they live outside the ranch, in the mountain, in the nature, "way the hell out in the back of nowhere"... With the time Ennis get more and more "paranoïac", after the misunderstanding following the divorce he withdraws, he is closing upon himself and Jack is more and more famished, weakening. Jack could not stand anymore and, of course, he could not have dream he "sweet life" with any other man. When he see Randall, something sparkles in him, but it's too late: he see (I think) what could have been an other story, easier maybe, but Jack is bound!

welshwitch · « **Reply #129 on:** Jul 11, 2006, 04:27 PM »

In which case Jack is, to pick up an idea from another thread, unselfish in that the dream he presents to Ennis is intended to fulfill Ennis's, not his own, fantasies. Then the question is whether he's have given up the relative comfort of life in Childress to go back to working on a ranch. Randall, however, raises the same question. He's a ranch foreman - would he have given that up to go and be a ranch-hand in Lightning Flat? Ennis would have done; Jack never actually suggests that to him, andit occurs to me that it might have overcome Ennis's inhibitions if he'd been going up to Jack's parents' place to help them out. They wouldn;t then have been so obviously two men living together, just a son and his friend helping out the family - I suppose it could have appeared or been presented to Randall like that too.

Mélanos · « **Reply #130 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:13 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 11, 2006, 04:27 PM

In which case Jack is, to pick up an idea from another thread, unselfish in that the dream he presents to Ennis is intended to fulfill Ennis's, not his own, fantasies. Then the question is whether he's have given up the relative comfort of life in Childress to go back to working on a ranch. Randall, however, raises the same question. He's a ranch foreman - would he have given that up to go and be a ranch-hand in Lightning Flat? Ennis would have done; Jack never actually suggests that to him, andit occurs to me that it might have overcome Ennis's inhibitions if he'd been going up to Jack's parents' place to help them out. They wouldn;t then have been so obviously two men living together, just a son and his friend helping out the family - I suppose it could have appeared or been presented to Randall like that too.

I'm afraid the only dream for Jack is rodeo: dance with death! John is the bull, remembedr him facing Ennis, pure hatred... nothing of this idea could have happend, it's a dream of death and when Jack tell his father he is going to bring Ennis he is playing a dangerous game! John was never contented with his son, so Jack bring him a man, a real one for a strugle to die. John is a direwolf, the guardian of Hell's door, but the mother is an other question: she is a prisoner! Perverse always have two victims, child and mother. Jack never stopped to go to Lightning Flat because of his mother... It is only the death of Jack that gave boldness to Ennis, strenght to go to Lightning Flat where John tried to destroy him and used Randall to do it.
When Jack came back from the lake he knew he was to die: it was the only way to keep Ennis alive (why don't you?). In a symbolic way John is the real killer, Jack told him about Randall to spare Ennis wich then was an old affair... Remember Aguirrer was a family"s friend and John "knew" about Brokeback mountain. With Randall Jack could have sees another dream, maybe Mexico?

tpe · « **Reply #131 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:42 AM »

Mélanos, what interesting metaphors you have here. Whether or not they are true, they do make me think about allegory and symbolism in BBM. The story is strong enough to survive multiple overlays. It can speak to us in many different, very personal, levels of truth and meaning.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #132 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 09:07 AM »

Jack's dream was to one day own and operate a. ranch with Ennis. All I'm saying is that After so much time would we blame Jack if found another to share that dream with if he decided that Ennis was never going to come around. It does'nt neccessesarily have to be Randall. Could be someone else. Jack and Ennis are ranch people they know the life and dream of owning teir own someday Jack wants to share hhis with Ennis and I believe Ennis wants the same with Jack, but is too afraid to help Jack fulfil that dream.What Jack may have in mind is to take Ennis, Randall or whom ever it might be to LF, to "whip that place into shape" Then eventually build a "sweet life" there . I believe John Twist, Jack"s father would have not ever fully accepted Jack bringing one of his lovers there but would have appreciated the help that Ennis or Randall could offer. They are both skilled in running ranches and John could have reluctantly been swayed enough to allow this. Especially if Jack's mom could have had some input.I think he hated his son's lifestyle deep inside loved his son.Even thogh Jack lived a privilaged life in Texas, his roots were in ranch work. Besides it was all due to Lureen"s family that he had money,not something he built for himself, which is what he really wanted with Ennis,TO RIDE WITH NO REINS.

tpe · « **Reply #133 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:18 AM »

We cannot blame Jack, nor can we shut the door to the possibility of Jack finding a life with someone else.

But dreams die hard. Most dreams are forgotten when the dreamer wakes. But others linger till the dreamer sleeps the final sleep.

For me, Ennis is Jack's dream of love. Whether the dreamer wakes or sleeps the final sleep, I know that the dreamer lives.

Mélanos · « **Reply #134 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 10:25 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 12, 2006, 10:18 AM

We cannot blame Jack, nor can we shut the door to the possibility of Jack finding a life with someone else.

But dreams die hard. Most dreams are forgotten when the dreamer wakes. But others linger till the dreamer sleeps the final sleep.

For me, Ennis is Jack's dream of love. Whether the dreamer wakes or sleeps the final sleep, I know that the dreamer lives.

Thanks tpe, that's great!

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #135 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 03:45 PM »

i think randall was just some he could have sex with nothing more

welshwitch · « **Reply #136 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 09:53 AM »

We never know his fate, either - i suppose the mob who killed Jack could have done the same to Randall if he was known to be Jack's partner.

NoReins · « **Reply #137 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 10:34 AM »

I wonder sometimes if it wasn't Randall's fault that Jack was killed. Randall doesn't seem to be as discrete as many he should be - I mean, he propositions Jack the first time he meets him which seems a bit odd. And he suggests that they go to his boss's cabin....so someone else knows that Randall is there, even if he doesn't know that Randall has someone with him. I guess it all depends on what being a "good ole boy" means....does it mean conservative and therefore unlikely to approve (or even tolerate) homosexuality? Can anyone enlighten me, 'cos I honestly don't know?

TeddybearEyes · « **Reply #138 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 10:50 AM »

I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...

~Julie~

Patriot1 · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 11:16 AM »

Quote from: TeddybearEyes on Jul 16, 2006, 10:50 AM

I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...

Part of me agrees with you TeddybearEyes. But what was Lureen going to do, go out and buy a strap-on dildo? Jack needed something Lureen couldn't give him. Masturbation wouldn't have helped him either and I don't think a vibrator dildo would have helped. So, the only alternative was other men.

browneyes · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 01:41 PM »

You guys haven't heard from me in a while, sorry! Remember, Jack knew Randall for 5 years, and yet he still saw Ennis everytime he got. That proves that he was still miserable w/out Ennis, he loved him, and he was unhappy. If Jack was happy with Randall, he would've said bye-bye Ennis. But he didn't, he saw Ennis everytime he got. Even if he tried to move on with his life with Randall, he would've still saw Ennis and probably give Ennis an ultimatum. Which I'm sure Ennis would have no choice but to agree to, if he found out Jack was living with another man. That would've showed Ennis that Jack is really getting serious now.

And like I said in another thread I see a lot of similarities of the Ennis/Cassie, Jack/Randall thing. I personally think Jack broke it off with Randall when he got back to Texas (like Ennis did Cassie). Because Jack didn't want to upset Ennis anymore. Maybe Jack knew whatever he did he couldn't be happy. That could be a reason why the idea, John Twist told Ennis about never came to pass. But there is no doubt Jack would've demanded changes with Ennis if he lived for the November trip.

tpe · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 07:33 AM »

Quote from: TeddybearEyes on Jul 16, 2006, 10:50 AM

I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...

~Julie~

Hello Julie. I am actually in the opinion that Randall and the Mexicao incident enrich the story, and that Jack "cheating" on Ennis is the other part of the equation that drives the whole story (the other being Ennis's unwillingness to share a life with Jack). I think we should note that it was Jack who was waiting for Ennis for the good part of 20 years -- his flings with other men are manifestations of his increasing frustration: a phenomenon all too familiar in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

We shaould also take note that it is not the physical gratification that drives Jack to Ennis deep down: it is Jack's love for Ennis, his need to be with him and share a life together. All too easily, we tend to focus on the physcial aspect at the expense of that which drives the physical attraction in the first place.

That Jack tried to find some kind of release with other men would have most likely NOT happened if Ennis had agreed to share a life of love with Jack. I am glad that Ennis did NOT agree to this: the story that is BBM would have been infinitely poorer has this been the case.

jeffjoe · « **Reply #142 on:** Jul 22, 2006, 05:18 PM »

Jack... the solitary soul, he need a suportt to his life when Ennis was so far, Randall is not the way he (jack) is looking, is only a gas station in the rute to Ennis

stacp · « **Reply #143 on:** Jul 22, 2006, 07:31 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Jul 16, 2006, 11:16 AM

Quote from: TeddybearEyes on Jul 16, 2006, 10:50 AM
I dunno... Is it just me or did all these other men in the story (Randall and those hookers in Mexico) ruin the story abit... I kinda felt like Jack had been cheating on Ennis... I wished Jack had just waited for Ennis like Ennis did for him.. You know, try satisfying himself with masturbation or something, or do it with Lureen but imagine Ennis, I know it wouldn't be half as satisfying, but at least the next time he meets Ennis for real, it'd feel so much more special... I dunno, Jack doing sexual things with other guys kinda bugged me abit, but that's probably just me...

Part of me agrees with you TeddybearEyes. But what was Lureen going to do, go out and buy a strap-on dildo? Jack needed something Lureen couldn't give him. Masturbation wouldn't have helped him either and I don't think a vibrator dildo would have helped. So, the only alternative was other men.

Well there is such a thing as abstinence, but Jack obviously wasn't capable of that. Ennis could make it on a couple of high altitude f***s once or twice a year, while Jack could not. I do think the affairs with other men were a physical release for Jack, much as Ennis' wringing it out. They were both human, with human flaws. Nothing was easy.

Julie, I must admit Jack's affair with Randall bothers me. It seemed to be a longer term "affair," while the sex with the prostitutes was just a one night, sex thing. I guess I just wanted Jack to be with Ennis and nobody else! But I think the movie is clear, IMO, that Jack only loved Ennis and could only be happy and satisfied with Ennis.

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #144 on:** Oct 26, 2006, 02:54 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 05, 2006, 07:59 AM

My personal feeling is: it is a good thing that Ang Lee edited out the supposed scene between Randall, Jack, and the mechanics -- it certainly would have been to much for me to bear.

I have heard the film was released, shown to thousands, withdrawn, cut by 6 minutes and re-released.

Is this true? Does this explain the tubby shot of jack in the trailer, and the garage men?

And there are stories about a van full of hippies?

Anyone know about this?

Saul

tpe · « **Reply #145 on:** Oct 26, 2006, 03:10 PM »

Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #146 on:** Oct 26, 2006, 04:06 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Oct 26, 2006, 03:10 PM

Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.

Delux edition!

Suuuuper! I will pre-order as soon as it is released! That will be wonderful, I just can't get enough of BBM.

Will this be in HDDVD?

Saul

tpe · « **Reply #147 on:** Oct 26, 2006, 04:34 PM »

OOT: Saul, you are after my own heart!

But I don't know if it will be HD... They should...

I do hope they include all the Randall scenes. It will be informative, especially to this discussion.

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #148 on:** Oct 26, 2006, 04:42 PM »

Anyway, while we are all awaiting the delux DVD, what is known about those cut scenes?

They are of course all over and above the story, but they are still facinating.

Saul

greenfrog · « **Reply #149 on:** Oct 27, 2006, 01:10 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Oct 26, 2006, 03:10 PM

Saul, I trust that all the deleted scenes will all be given in the new deluxe edition of BBM that will come out in 2007. In this way, we will have a better understanding of Ang Lee's different ideas about Jack's end and his relationship with Randall.

I hope it does.

I'd love to know what happend in the end between them.

Author Topic: Randall (Read 235266 times)

browneyes

browneyes

browneyes

greenfrog