Author Topic: Randall  (Read 235943 times)

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #300 on: Jan 03, 2007, 07:23 AM »
I will try not to think of that possibility.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #301 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:16 AM »
You're probably correct.  Lureen's personality and family influences lead me to believe she would have stuck it to Jack without any grand announcements.  I think she would have tried to maintain her appearance with regards to her circle of associates and friends.

With Lureen, I do think it was mostly about appearances, no?  Being in the right sorority, having the right clothes, jewelry, handsome husband, etc.

I think with Randall, it was entirely the opposite.  What was outside was mere pretense.  He was quiet outside, but I suspect that like Jack, he too had an active double life.


Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #302 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:22 AM »
Good point- I don't think anyone could get a word in edgewise to tell her they suspected Jack and Randall.

I had wondered if she ever suspected Randall.  I doubt it, personally.

Quote
Another good point- I think Lureen was more concerned about appearances and therefore wouldn't have wanted for word to get out- at the very least it wouldn't come from her. I don;t think she had him killed but I do believe she knows the true nature of his death- that little story she told Ennis was too rehear**d plus the "He was only 39 yrs old" was part of her speech. We don't know what became of Randall or what even prompted Jack's attack- for all we know Randall is dead too.  :-\\

Thanks LJN.  I do think there is much more to Randall and Lureen than meets the eye...

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Randall
« Reply #303 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:23 AM »
They strike me as two people who are using each other - LaShawn has to be camouflage for Randall - no-one in his right mind would voluntarily marry her unless he had some ulterior motive. and sh's using him - he's got her out of working in shops, and into a higher level of society, even if it's in a backwater like Childress.

I can just imagine LaShawn tring to push Randall t get on and out so that she could be part of eg Dallas society and go shopping in Neiman Marcus instead of working there. I don't think Randall was going to get much peace with her. No wonder Jack looked so attractive, regardless of whether he was male or female.

Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #304 on: Jan 03, 2007, 08:25 AM »
Yes, LaShawn is quite an interesting figure when paired with Randall.  Were there hidden motives for Randall to marry LaShawn?  Perhaps she was pretty enough, and her talking too much would certainly mean that she would be too busy to notice what was going on around her.


Offline Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree

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Re: Randall
« Reply #305 on: Jan 03, 2007, 12:03 PM »
No wonder Jack looked so attractive, regardless of whether he was male or female.

Please - Jack should stay just as he is! lets leave the blond wigs and smudgy nail varnish to the natural born ladies!
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Offline froggy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #306 on: Jan 03, 2007, 12:46 PM »
My guess is that LaShawn would have made Randall appear as the number one town enemy.  I think her embarassment would have taken a back seat to vengence.

yes that's one good point.


for all we know Randall is dead too.  :-\\

oh , I had not thought about that!!
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Offline Diepcon

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Re: Randall
« Reply #307 on: Jan 03, 2007, 12:57 PM »
Well, in my first time seeing the film, I haven't had any notice in Randoll (so I'm now not sure I type his name correctly). I allways think Jack's only love is Ennis and Randoll is someone to fulfill the gap between Jack and Ennis. In my opinion, he is nothing, maybe he is anotherone who likes Alma or Lureen ( u know what I mean)... So why must we talk about him? Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together

Sorry for my bad English, hope yll can understand what I want to say  :(
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Offline Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree

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Re: Randall
« Reply #308 on: Jan 03, 2007, 01:17 PM »
So why must we talk about him?
Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....

"Must" implies that we have too. No one is forcing us to discuss this! Randall is something in that he features in the story. Its better to focus on your love for Ennis and Jack rather than to hate Randall.

Quote
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together

There is no evidence to support this at all. Anyone could have been behind the murder of Jack and this may or may not have been connected with Randall. If Jack went with male protitutes in Mexico that heaven knows what indiscressions he got up to nearer to home. The story makes it clear that Jack was having sex with men before he ever met Ennis.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #309 on: Jan 03, 2007, 02:14 PM »
Well, in my first time seeing the film, I haven't had any notice in Randoll (so I'm now not sure I type his name correctly). I allways think Jack's only love is Ennis and Randoll is someone to fulfill the gap between Jack and Ennis. In my opinion, he is nothing, maybe he is anotherone who likes Alma or Lureen ( u know what I mean)... So why must we talk about him? Jack always loves Ennis, I'm sure, Randoll is nothing, nothing, nothing....
I hate him, maybe he's the reason for Jack's death, if Jack didn't die, who knows what would be? Ennis may change his mind and they can have a sweet life together

Sorry for my bad English, hope yll can understand what I want to say  :(

Welcome Diepcon.

JFT is right.  It is best to dwell on your love for Ennis and Jack, and not on the hate.  Many other members share your feelings about Randall.  And why not?  Others don't.  Why is that?  You see.  This points to a good discussion, if you so wish to enter into your own and other people's feelings.

What makes Randall interesting is his enigmatic, though potentially significant role in the story.  Love him or hate him, he is part of the key into understanding Jack's end.


Offline Diepcon

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Re: Randall
« Reply #310 on: Jan 03, 2007, 02:30 PM »
Uhmmm, sorry for my.... I don't know, hatred of Randall. But I don't agree with JFT, Jack may have sex with many men before he met Ennis, but I would like to emphasize that Ennis is his only LOVE. I think there are many differences between sex and love, true love. And if Jack doesn't love Ennis anymore, why did he meet Ennis anytime he could?
Well, sorry  if my reply is not under the topic!
Thank u for reply me, I really appreciate it. <^(
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #311 on: Jan 03, 2007, 03:18 PM »
I think JFT would agree with you here.  I think his objection was whether or not Randall was the cause of Jack's death.

I think we all agree that Ennis was Jack's true and only love.   Randall could not have competed, as Jack died before anything could have been accomplished in the matter of the sweet life.  We can't tell for sure how things would have developed, because Randall's relationship with Jack is so shadowy and enigmatic.  Again, we learn more about ourselves and our feelings (rather than about Randall) when we tackle the question at hand.




Offline MaxHim

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Re: Randall
« Reply #312 on: Jan 03, 2007, 03:21 PM »



 I don;t think she had him killed but I do believe she knows the true nature of his death- that little story she told Ennis was too rehear**d plus the "He was only 39 yrs old" was part of her speech.

I second that.
3 hours ago, I saw BBM again, and during the "phone scene" I watched carefuly Lureen's face : Wet eyes, she said "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean."
About the ashes, I mean. in a quite ironical way !
I think, she was completely aware of who really was Jack, and how he finished. :\'(

About Randall, I think Jack began something with him in order to fill a miss. He missed Ennis so much, and Ennis was not disponible as he used to be as before. But Randall was not Ennis, and Jack continued being tormented. He told Ennis : Truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it..."
I guess, to meet Ennis less and less often, was too hard for Jake, and maybe he took useless risks, hoping unconsciously to finish some with his life.... :\'( :\'(
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #313 on: Jan 03, 2007, 03:34 PM »
The enigmatic part of the text is as follows:

The old man spoke angrily. “I can’t get no help out here. Jack used a say, ‘Ennis del Mar,’ he used a say, ‘I’m goin a bring him up here one a these days and we’ll lick this damn ranch into shape.’ He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.”

So now he knew it had been the tire iron.


(Proulx - Brokeback Mountain 1997)


It seems that, to Ennis, there was a connection between Jack's murder and his wanting a divorce from Lureen and planning a sweet life with Randall.

Differing things can be inferrred from this: the possibility of being murdered because of wanting a divorce (and Lureen finding out the true circumstances), or a foolhardy wish for a change of lifestyle that led to an incidental murder. 

The text is vague enough to accomodate both interpretations, IMO.  But to be sure, Randall and Jack's attempt to live a sweet life with him is associated by Ennis with the certainty of Jack being murdered.

Offline Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree

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Re: Randall
« Reply #314 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:09 PM »
I think we all agree that Ennis was Jack's true and only love.

Oh yes!!! No doubt about that at all. I feel safe in saying we all agree on this point. They were the loves of each others lives.
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Offline Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree

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Re: Randall
« Reply #315 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:11 PM »
I don't waste time in hate - be it Randal, or Jacks parents or anybody else. The core of the story is love. However frurstrated, unconventional, secret and tragic - its love.
Learn from Brokeback Mountain. Make the most of your life & love from now on.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #316 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:12 PM »
Oh yes!!! No doubt about that at all. I feel safe in saying we all agree on this point. They were the loves of each others lives.

Even Randall must have recognized that if he knew.  If he didn't know, it wouldn't take too long for Jack to show it somehow or other...

 

Offline froggy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #317 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:23 PM »
Even Randall must have recognized that if he knew.  If he didn't know, it wouldn't take too long for Jack to show it somehow or other...

 

agreed, it would have shown.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #318 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:28 PM »
agreed, it would have shown.

Jack was far too emotive to conceal it for very long...  And judging from Randall reading Jack correctly during the cabin episode, I suspect that Randall would also be attuned to such things.

Offline froggy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #319 on: Jan 03, 2007, 06:31 PM »
completely agree with this Tpe
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Randall
« Reply #320 on: Jan 03, 2007, 09:05 PM »
I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived  :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #321 on: Jan 03, 2007, 10:19 PM »
I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived  :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.

I also agree Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis.  Even if he didn't, I think Mr. Twist would have said something to Randall about Ennis at some point, especially if he and Jack were at odds about anything.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Randall
« Reply #322 on: Jan 04, 2007, 04:42 AM »
If it was a fact , ( and I'm not sure now), that Jack was going to bring Randall to LF to  help fix up the ranch  with him,then might Jack have mentioned Ennis to Randall himself if he felt this close to Randall to consider  LIVING with him. After all they were very secretive and like minded . It's a a scarce fluke for Jack to meet Randall ( another married gay man in that  small town of Childress Texas at that time) It's a possibility, i think  this because Mr. Twist knew Ennis by name ("Jack  used to say") as if he'd heard the name said before and  about the "ranch neighbor" without ever meeting him. Jack had to  have mentioned these people to one or both of his parents.Maybe Jack and Randall shared things. I guess I'm suggesting that even though Jack  was defintitly  in love with Ennis , but Maybe this WAS more than just sex with Randall. He had alot to offer Jack. Maybe the feelings were deeper? but limited. Just a thought.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #323 on: Jan 04, 2007, 09:04 AM »
I agree that Randall would have picked up on Jack's feelings for Ennis. I think even if Jack had gotten Randall up there to the Twist ranch (had he lived  :( ) it would have been overshadowed by the fact that Jack wanted it to be Ennis with him there for so long.

And we may ask: wouldn't moving closer to Ennis be a recipe for disaster as far as the relationship with Randall is concerned?

It is possible that Jack could have been using the relationship with Randall as a trump card to get Ennis's position out in the open, so to speak.  If this is true, then I doubt that Randall would have known about it and that this was perhaps a subconscious motive on Jack's part.


Offline Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree

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Re: Randall
« Reply #324 on: Jan 04, 2007, 10:17 AM »
It's a a scarce fluke for Jack to meet Randall ( another married gay man in that  small town of Childress Texas at that time)

He had alot to offer Jack. Maybe the feelings were deeper? but limited. Just a thought.

Its not a fluke at all. Lots of men get up to this sort of thing all the time. (And I know from extensive experience!) I feel it was more quick sex - literally getting away from the blondes for a few days to get in some serious man on man action. At least at first.

Jack must have been one to talk about his ideas. I'm sure Ennis never wanted to live with him on his parents ranch, and maybe Randal new nothing about this either!

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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Randall
« Reply #325 on: Jan 04, 2007, 11:27 AM »
I ae with JFT. when you see how terrified Ennis is of the idea of people seeing him with Jack or suspecting there's something odd about him, there's no way he'd live with Jack on his parents' land with their knowing what the relationship is. I don't know whether Randall hypothetically would either. It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies - he had evidently thought out the details of the sweet life without consulting Ennis, only to find there was no way Ennis would go along and this is another example of the same thing.

Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.

Offline MaxHim

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Re: Randall
« Reply #326 on: Jan 04, 2007, 04:19 PM »
It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies -

completely agree with this WW


and telling this to his father, may be a little bit like a provocation against his father and especially Ennis
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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Randall
« Reply #327 on: Jan 04, 2007, 06:29 PM »
...Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.

Interesting points JFT and welshwitch.  Jack was regarded as a dreamer.  It wouldn't be off-base to consider the possiblity of Randall knowing nothing about Jacks plans for LF.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Randall
« Reply #328 on: Jan 05, 2007, 06:56 AM »
I don't think there's enough information to draw any real conclusions as far as the relationship between Jack and his dad  went at this time. We never saw them interact face to face. We do know that they did'nt get along  well though, but to what degree? Jack is much older now and relationships change or  at least settle into a "cease-fire so that there is at least civility. Jack visited his parents several times, over the years  even discussed Ennis openly with  them. There were no shotguns pulled or warnings not to show up there again either. I think as Jack got older there was an uneasy truce, with his dad, but we don't know the dynamics of the relationship as in how well Jack could hold his own against the ol man. we only have one side.  In what way could Jack persuade his father on matters? , Man to man now.  and to what degree?  Any respect at all? These are important questions left unanswered. We have no real insight as to who really had the upper hand here.( if there was one)   Sure ,Jack was a dreamer, but to him those dreams were  born of a real  love ,therfore can we really say that Jack himself knew that ,as he dreamed, that it all was an impossbility?  Dismissed as fantasy only? After all he was persistent. We're talkin headstrong when he put his mind to something he wanted.  Maybe living in LF with Ennis was a fantasy, but Jack had a plan to turn fantasy into reality. A  long and hard step by step process.  He was missing one important part of the  puzzle  though. Ennis's commitment. Major setback? yes.  But he  died during in his stuggle to do this.....  to make his dreams come true wether it be  with Randall ,or Ennis.  ~) so long. My opinion.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Randall
« Reply #329 on: Jan 05, 2007, 08:24 AM »
I ae with JFT. when you see how terrified Ennis is of the idea of people seeing him with Jack or suspecting there's something odd about him, there's no way he'd live with Jack on his parents' land with their knowing what the relationship is. I don't know whether Randall hypothetically would either. It strikes me that the idea of bringing someone with him up to Lightning Flat was one of Jack's little fantasies - he had evidently thought out the details of the sweet life without consulting Ennis, only to find there was no way Ennis would go along and this is another example of the same thing.

Randall evidently has qualifications and no trouble getting a job - why would he want to take on Jack's father's failing ranch? If he knew anything about it, he would know that it was in the wrong place and was never likely to succeed.

Two guys living together?  No Way.

I think it didn't matter where and with whom.  Ennis's springs from the memory of Rich and Earl.  I don't think Randall had the same issues, but we shall never know what his real intentions were with Jack.