Topic: Randall

[tpe]

Wow! I've thought this many times you two! She made it easy for the both of them to quietly make this arrangement possible for sure. They used her excessive talking to their advantage. The woman never had a clue."Lively  little gal"? Yes  Indeedy!.

Did she ever know?  I assume Randall survived Jack.  Randall probably moved on -- searching for other men to connect with.  I am sure he was condfident in the knowledge that LaShawn was blind to it all -- engrossed as she is with her own world of endless talk and self-centeredness.

[BBM Fan]

Yes, tpe, the uncomfortable silence was very telling. I think Jack was just trying to make conversation, with Randall, but it was a statement instead of a question, I believe.  ("you'll like working for Roy Taylor" )suggesting that Jack was familiar with this Roy Taylor also. Apparently Randall had just started the foreman job as LaShawn alluded to earlier at the table.  It also shows that up  until that point Randall had  every intention of asking Jack to be with him all along. He just had to find a way to do it delicately. And the way he did it in that quiet suggestive manner?  It was his way of confirming the signals he got from Jack.

I just don't see Jack giving Randall any signals.  When Randall smiles at him at the table, Jack's eyes move away from him.  (One thing that was a little odd, was when Jack asked LaShawn to dance & Randall's eyes darted quickly away from Jack to LaShawn.  What was that all about?)  Yes, Jack looks away from LaShawn when they're dancing, but was he really looking at Randall?  When they were outside & Randall suggests they go to the cabin, Jack stared blankly ahead & I don't think he gave any indication that he was interested.  I think the small talk was Jack's way of passing time & keeping the conversation on things other than the 2 of them.  It was obvious that Randall was pursuing Jack.  But I think mention of going to the cabin only made Jack think of & want Ennis more.  Am I wrong? Huh?

[tpe]

I just don't see Jack giving Randall any signals.  When Randall smiles at him at the table, Jack's eyes move away from him.  (One thing that was a little odd, was when Jack asked LaShawn to dance & Randall's eyes darted quickly away from Jack to LaShawn.  What was that all about?)  Yes, Jack looks away from LaShawn when they're dancing, but was he really looking at Randall?  When they were outside & Randall suggests they go to the cabin, Jack stared blankly ahead & I don't think he gave any indication that he was interested.  I think the small talk was Jack's way of passing time & keeping the conversation on things other than the 2 of them.  It was obvious that Randall was pursuing Jack.  But I think mention of going to the cabin only made Jack think of & want Ennis more.  Am I wrong? Huh?

I suspect that Jack moving away his gaze is a mannerism that was born of some inherent shyness.

Why do I say this?  Another instance in the movie where such a thing occurs is when he first meets Lureen at the bar.  Jack clearly was interested in Lureen at that moment, because he was flattered at her attention during the winning rodeo bull ride (as indicated by the screenplay for the bull riding scene, if I recall correctly). 

But when Lureen returned his gaze, Jack immediately moves his gaze and nervously pretends not to notice.  When Lureen confronts him, he bites his lip nervously and is tongue-tied (awesome acting from Jake Gyllenhaal in this scene!)


I think we can extrapolate this to the scene with Randall.  The contrast is that when Randall looks at Jack and smiles, Jack coolly turns his gaze away and continues the conversation without a break or sign of nervousness.  He has learned a bit of subtlety over they years, even though he was still inherently abashed in such situations.

But I must admit that one counter-example to this in the movie appears to be the scene with the Rodeo clown at the bar.  Here, Jack meets the clown's gaze with a humger that is unmistakable -- enough to unnerve the clown who makes a hasty retreat.  Desperation on Jack's part, perhaps? 

[aintfoolin]

The eye to eye contact at the table with Randall convinced me that Jack saw possibilities with him .  Randall reciprecated that breif but telling staredown. No doubt in my mind, that it was a signal, an understanding if you will. I guess him being so shy attests the fact that he does'nt see himself as others do. He does'nt realize  that he  is SO friggin  handsome and acts accordingly when approached by interested  or potential suitors.This is part of what makes him so damn sexy IMO. Please, don't get me started

[tpe]

The eye to eye contact at the table with Randall convinced me that Jack saw possibilities with him .  Randall reciprecated that breif but telling staredown. No doubt in my mind, that it was a signal, an understanding if you will. I guess him being so shy attests the fact that he does'nt see himself as others do. He does'nt realize  that he  is SO friggin  handsome and acts accordingly when approached by interested  or potential suitors.This is part of what makes him so damn sexy IMO. Please, don't get me started

I do personally see it this way: that Jack sensed possibilities.  Randall was much more forward at the table, IMO.  I don't think Jack strongly encouraged him then, but he probably gave enough away to tantalize Randall.

As for not knowing his own merits, perhaps it is because he feels inadequate and not on the same level with a lot of these people who had similar backgrounds like Randall and Lureen.  I note that with those who we may consider to be subordinate to Jack -- the rodeo clown and the prostitute -- Jack was forward enough...

[welshwitch]

This is another place where Jack is apparently an outsider - Lureen is supposed to have gone to university, and LaShawn, though the idea of her being a graduate is hysterically funny, and Randall - they are alll talking about instirutions and sororities and he is left out - then Randall comes on to him. Wonder if Jack thinks Randall thinks him an easy "victim" in some way?

[tpe]

This is another place where Jack is apparently an outsider - Lureen is supposed to have gone to university, and LaShawn, though the idea of her being a graduate is hysterically funny, and Randall - they are alll talking about instirutions and sororities and he is left out - then Randall comes on to him. Wonder if Jack thinks Randall thinks him an easy "victim" in some way?

Jack was out of his element.  Did Jack know many people with Randall's background?  It would appear that Randall had much more confidence than Jack.  Perhaps this was part of the attraction?

[BBM Fan]

I suspect that Jack moving away his gaze is a mannerism that was born of some inherent shyness.

Why do I say this?  Another instance in the movie where such a thing occurs is when he first meets Lureen at the bar.  Jack clearly was interested in Lureen at that moment, because he was flattered at her attention during the winning rodeo bull ride (as indicated by the screenplay for the bull riding scene, if I recall correctly). 

But when Lureen returned his gaze, Jack immediately moves his gaze and nervously pretends not to notice.  When Lureen confronts him, he bites his lip nervously and is tongue-tied (awesome acting from Jake Gyllenhaal in this scene!)


I think we can extrapolate this to the scene with Randall.  The contrast is that when Randall looks at Jack and smiles, Jack coolly turns his gaze away and continues the conversation without a break or sign of nervousness.  He has learned a bit of subtlety over they years, even though he was still inherently abashed in such situations.

But I must admit that one counter-example to this in the movie appears to be the scene with the Rodeo clown at the bar.  Here, Jack meets the clown's gaze with a hunger that is unmistakable -- enough to unnerve the clown who makes a hasty retreat.  Desperation on Jack's part, perhaps? 

Good points. 

See, I took the scene with the clown as Jack wanting to pursue that - it was evident to me.  With Lureen at the bar, I think he was interested, but hesitant - possibly still thinking of Ennis?  But with that old Randall, I didn't get the sense that he was interested at all - in fact, I felt that he was really uncomfortable at Randall's advances.  Maybe it WAS just being shy or nervous, but I still feel he wasn't interested - still pining for Ennis & perhaps wondering how it would be at the ranch owner's cabin with Ennis.  Hummm?  tpe - you've forced me to go watch the movie again.  My only regret - that I didn't start counting the # of times - has to be well over 30.

[tpe]

Good points. 

See, I took the scene with the clown as Jack wanting to pursue that - it was evident to me.  With Lureen at the bar, I think he was interested, but hesitant - possibly still thinking of Ennis?  But with that old Randall, I didn't get the sense that he was interested at all - in fact, I felt that he was really uncomfortable at Randall's advances.  Maybe it WAS just being shy or nervous, but I still feel he wasn't interested - still pining for Ennis & perhaps wondering how it would be at the ranch owner's cabin with Ennis.  Hummm?  tpe - you've forced me to go watch the movie again.  My only regret - that I didn't start counting the # of times - has to be well over 30.

I do think Jack was probably curious, but I agree with you that when Randall's subtle proposal came, Jack was probably disturbed.  In his eyes at that moment, I felt that he was thinking about Ennis, and it had the same look in his eyes when he was dancing with Lureen -- again, thinking about Ennis, IMO.

In spite of this, I do think Jack did have something going on with Randall.  Did Jack love him in the end?  I don't know.  He probably loved him for a willingness to share a life with him (assuming that Randall was indeed up for it).  But I think his true love is Ennis.  Again, there is a great difference in that.

[welshwitch]

In which case Randall woud always have been second best; I wonder how long it would have ben before he'd found that out?

Eg, if he had come to Lightning Flat, Jack would have had to hide or get rid of the shirts, since they wouldn't exactly be easy to explain. and wouldn't John Twist have given the game away anyhow? He'd have enjoyed disrupting things by mentioning "the other fella" who was going to come there with Jack originally.

It's also a much more unlikely scenario than that of Ennis coming there - Ennis has no proper home, no settled family, and has a fairly standard job he could do anywhere, whereas Randall would be a divorce, with a voluble wife out there somewhere, and a college education - what would Lightning Flat have for him, except Jack, and I rather doubt he or Jack could say that openly.

[tpe]

In which case Randall woud always have been second best; I wonder how long it would have ben before he'd found that out?

Eg, if he had come to Lightning Flat, Jack would have had to hide or get rid of the shirts, since they wouldn't exactly be easy to explain. and wouldn't John Twist have given the game away anyhow? He'd have enjoyed disrupting things by mentioning "the other fella" who was going to come there with Jack originally.

It's also a much more unlikely scenario than that of Ennis coming there - Ennis has no proper home, no settled family, and has a fairly standard job he could do anywhere, whereas Randall would be a divorce, with a voluble wife out there somewhere, and a college education - what would Lightning Flat have for him, except Jack, and I rather doubt he or Jack could say that openly.

I doubt that Randall and Jack would ever live in the same house with Jack's parents, so jack's room will remain intact and that the shirst will remain safe and undisturbed.

I would suppose that Randall and Jack would build a cabin in the ranch grounds, just as Jack planned for himself and Ennis.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I do think Jack was probably curious, but I agree with you that when Randall's subtle proposal came, Jack was probably disturbed.  In his eyes at that moment, I felt that he was thinking about Ennis, and it had the same look in his eyes when he was dancing with Lureen -- again, thinking about Ennis, IMO.

In spite of this, I do think Jack did have something going on with Randall.  Did Jack love him in the end?  I don't know.  He probably loved him for a willingness to share a life with him (assuming that Randall was indeed up for it).  But I think his true love is Ennis.  Again, there is a great difference in that.

I agree tpe!  As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis.  Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.

[BBM Fan]

I agree tpe!  As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis.  Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.

I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all.  It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory.  I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it.  I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life..  Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry. 

[tpe]

I agree tpe!  As much as I liked Randall (what little we know of him), I can't ignore how much of Jack's heart was invested in Ennis.  Randall was a good catch, but not the one who gripped Jack's heart.

We also shouldn't forget that initially, Ennis himself appeared like an unlikely candidate to win Jack's heart.  Perhaps we tend to be too harsh on Randall in the sense that he probably never got the opportunity to take his affair with Jack on a deeper level, as Jack's heart implicitly fended off any such attempt for love of Ennis.

[tpe]

I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all.  It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory.  I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it.  I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life..  Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry. 

I personally don't think we know enough of Randall to say with certainty that he was arrogant.  He is too shadowy a character.  But I think there is enough in the conversation scene to suspect that he was more soft-spoken and subtle, rather than arrogant.  After all, he was the direct opposite of LaShawn -- and for a reason.

And it might be unfair for us to say that he was horning in on Ennis's territory.  How could he have known initially?  There is no evidence to suggest that Jack really talked about Ennis with him (although this would have been inevitable in the long run.)  If there is a person to blame here (and I say if), it would be Jack, for opening the door for Randall to come into his life.  And yet we know what drove Jack to do this: his frustration with Ennis.

Still, Randall is so shadowy that my opinion in this matter is just as good as anybody's here.  My sympathy for Randall reveals more about myself than about Randall, no?  Where there are lacunae, it is natural for us to try to fill them in with our own images and impressions.  This is what makes Randall so fascinating to discuss.

[welshwitch]

When/if I contemplate the idea of Jack settling for Randall, I think of the saying, "We live not as we would but as we may."

[tpe]

Jack did what he can.  He needed someone to hold him.  If Randall was that someone who gave him such a hope, then maybe it was not for nothing.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I'm sorry, guys, but I didn't like Randall at all.  It was partially due to his arrogant attitude, IMO, & the fact that he was horning in on Ennis' territory.  I agree that Jack would have probably settled for him - they wouldn't have lived in his childhood bedroom - too small & I doubt Dad would have allowed it.  I also agree that Dad would have spilled the beans about the other fella - Ennis - just to be nasty (John Nasty) & disrupt Jack's life..  Basically, I don't like to think of that old Randall being in the picture at all - sorry. 

Although I wanted Ennis and Jack together as much as the next fan, I don't see Randall as a wedge that hampered Ennis and Jack's possible union.  As mentioned throughout this thread, Randall probably knew nothing of Ennis.

BBM Fan I do agree that Jack's dad might have spilled the beans about the other fella had Jack and Randall tried to make a go of it i LF. 

[aintfoolin]

The proposition did'nt come out of nowhere either. Jack was'nt being overly flirtatous, but  there was enough there to give Randall ideas. As so in real life. Maybe Jack thought of it as innocent flirting, but to his discovery Randall actually took the bait. I don't see the arrogance here either.I agree , the guy was just a soft-spoken cowboy ranch foreman, trapped in a convenient marriage looking for a little extraccurricular activities. People are indeed hard on Randall at times on the thread. I was at one time  myself ,but studying the scene more closely I saw a different story. This relationship is very, very intriguing to me . It shows a test of Jack's love for Ennis.

Although I wanted Ennis and Jack together as much as the next fan, I don't see Randall as a wedge that hampered Ennis and Jack's possible union.  As mentioned throughout this thread, Randall probably knew nothing of Ennis.

BBM Fan I do agree that Jack's dad might have spilled the beans about the other fella had Jack and Randall tried to make a go of it i LF. 

[BBM Fan]

Did he just suggested a "vacation" ?

This looks gives me chillies also..

This look is why I don't think Jack came on to Randall.  I think Randall was a last resort - because Jack was desperate for something he never hardly got.

[BBM Fan]

I agree WW . Randall was just trying to find someone to share his  time and real desires with. He lucked out finding Jack. There was nothing "evil" about it  or him at all. Jack and Lureen happened along after Randall's vehicle broke down. So this was a chance meeting between the two. If I  were Randall and had the choice to spend time with Jack or LaShawn ,the choice becomes even more clearer....Jack!.  Ya can't blame Randall......At least the man could have a two-way conversation with someone.! .  Jack and Randall were flirting at the the table, ( literally right under their wives' noses) but when Randall actually proposed doing something about it , Jack was caught off guard. The reality of Randall's proposal was unexpected.

I just don't see any flirting on Jack's part.  What am I missing?  Everyone else seems to think he was.   

[BBM Fan]

I personally don't think we know enough of Randall to say with certainty that he was arrogant.  He is too shadowy a character.  But I think there is enough in the conversation scene to suspect that he was more soft-spoken and subtle, rather than arrogant.  After all, he was the direct opposite of LaShawn -- and for a reason.

And it might be unfair for us to say that he was horning in on Ennis's territory.  How could he have known initially?  There is no evidence to suggest that Jack really talked about Ennis with him (although this would have been inevitable in the long run.)  If there is a person to blame here (and I say if), it would be Jack, for opening the door for Randall to come into his life.  And yet we know what drove Jack to do this: his frustration with Ennis.

Still, Randall is so shadowy that my opinion in this matter is just as good as anybody's here.  My sympathy for Randall reveals more about myself than about Randall, no?  Where there are lacunae, it is natural for us to try to fill them in with our own images and impressions.  This is what makes Randall so fascinating to discuss.

I guess arrogant isn't the right word, but I used it because of the way he just sat there & smiled.  He didn't know about Ennis at that time - I was just being protective of him (Ennis) and saying on Ennis' behalf - stay away from my man.  Although if Ennis had been confronted with Jack & Randall, I have doubts that he would have done anything.  Who knows - I just didn't want Jack with anyone else.  Bottomline

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I guess arrogant isn't the right word, but I used it because of the way he just sat there & smiled.  He didn't know about Ennis at that time - I was just being protective of him (Ennis) and saying on Ennis' behalf - stay away from my man.  Although if Ennis had been confronted with Jack & Randall, I have doubts that he would have done anything.  Who knows - I just didn't want Jack with anyone else.  Bottomline

I don't blame you.  Neither do I.  I know two soulmates when I see them.

[BBM Fan]

I don't blame you.  Neither do I.  I know two soulmates when I see them.

that's right. CSC:   Randall is probably an ok guy, but just not with any of our guys.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for the picture BBM fan. His look in the picture could be interpreted several ways imo. He could  be contemplating  how to handle this propsition and how it will affect his relationship  in the future with Ennis or just what to say next. They were  interrupted before we found out. No doubt he truly loved Ennis. He is the one Jack really wanted.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Thanks for the picture BBM fan. His look in the picture could be interpreted several ways imo. He could  be contemplating  how to handle this propsition and how it will affect his relationship  in the future with Ennis or just what to say next. They were  interrupted before we found out. No doubt he truly loved Ennis. He is the one Jack really wanted.

I've tried other interpretations of this look on Jack's face, but I always come back to him thinking of Ennis.  I feel guilty because I personally find Randall quite inviting.

Does this make me fast?

[BBM Fan]

I've tried other interpretations of this look on Jack's face, but I always come back to him thinking of Ennis.  I feel guilty because I personally find Randall quite inviting.

Does this make me fast?

Randall is all yours, CSC.  I personally don't think he's attractive, but I guess that's because I haven't been concentrating on him.

Aintfoolin - I agree with you.  Jack's blank stare could be interpreted in different ways.  The gals came out too soon for him to answer.  But still, to me, he had a blank, sort of bewildered stare - like he didn't know how to respond, like, "should I take second best?" - I really don't think he wanted to, but guess we'll never know.

I appreciate each of your opinions - it's interesting to see how others interpret things differently.

[aintfoolin]

Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! , but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it,  it involved Ennis. It's  "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?

[BBM Fan]

Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! , but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it,  it involved Ennis. It's  "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?

Can't blame Randall at all.  Since everyone seems to think he's attractive, I took another, hard look at him.  I guess it's the beard that I didn't like - I'll concede that he's not unattractive.  I agree that his proposal probably came sooner than Jack expected & he probably was thinking, "hummm, he ain't no Ennis, but should I?" 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Beauty, of course ,is in the eye of the beholder.Personally I think Randall's face has character all it's own. He's not a *pretty boy* but he's not an unattractive guy either. I'd go for em. Besides looks are'nt everything. His soft-spoken, nonthreating manner is what attracts me to him. Of course your fast CSC! , but don't fret cowboy, your not alone. I see where your coming from.
BBm fan, I feel no matter how you look at it,  it involved Ennis. It's  "should I, or should'nt I to me"+ I don't think Jack really expected this proposal so soon, but Randall was taking a chance. Can't blame him. Can you?

It's funny...I think I am attracted to Randall and Ennis for the same reason.  They are both quiet, and very masculine men.  Jack is quite masculine too, but his character is a little more animated than my personal preferences allow.  I don't see the animation as a bad thing, it just does nothing for me on a romantic level.