Topic: Randall

[welshwitch]

He's told his parents that he intends to leave Lureen and Bobby, presumably on his last visit home and after the confrontation with Ennis. I hardly think he'd say this to his father if he didn;t intend doing it, otherwise every time he came back after that his father would throw it in his face as yet another of the things he'd never done.

So having Randall there has made him see his life differently, that and Ennis's announcement that he can get away only twice in a year. Jack has an alternative and perhaps he's at the point where he is seriously considering taking it.

[tpe]

Wonderful posts during the weekend!

Do we all agree that Jack did prefer Ennis to Randall?  I think this was clear, and I think it is not because of anything about Randall per se.  Rather, it has more to do with Ennis and Jack feeling that they were bound to each other by nature and by choice.  I think Jack could live happily enough with Randall or with anyone willing to share a life with him.  But these are all elective affinities, no?   Jack clung to Ennis in spite of the knowledge that getting him to share a sweet life was an uphill battle.  To paraphrase Scripture: Love chose them, and not the other way around.

[manhattangirl]

Jack might have played a very dangerous game with these two men.   Both, Randall and Ennis wanted Jack.  Randall could have been after spending a few nights with Jack, not so willing to play a gentlemen's role and let Jack go so easily.  Jack had the ability to breakdown these men facades.   He did it with Ennis, and he was able to do with Randall.   This "thing" Ennis tried to explain to Jack, was probably Jack himself, and that in itself was too powerful for both to ignore.

[tpe]

Jack might have played a very dangerous game with these two men.   Both, Randall and Ennis wanted Jack.  Randall could have been after spending a few nights with Jack, not so willing to play a gentlemen's role and let Jack go so easily.  Jack had the ability to breakdown these men facades.   He did it with Ennis, and he was able to do with Randall.   This "thing" Ennis tried to explain to Jack, was probably Jack himself, and that in itself was too powerful for both to ignore.

manhattangirl, you do bring up a good point: Randall may not have been complacent when Jack was concerned.  I had assumed that Jack had been the driving factor as far as getting Randall to live with him, but I had not considered the possibility that Randall could have been equally determined to have Jack.  If this is true, then it would hasve indeed been a rather dangerous game for Jack to play, assuming that he would continue seeing both Ennis and Randall...

[manhattangirl]

I see the beauty of their marriages.   Jack and Ennis had the freedom of an "all boys" week, fishing, hunting, and getting drunk.  Their wives could be easily excluded.   Their 20 years affair, lasted so long because of not only of their love, but the fact, these men can use their sex as a cover.   The once or twice a year "male bonding" aspect of their relationship.   

Now, Randall could have put a monkey wrench in that alone, being male closer to them, like them.   Unless Jack could come up with a reason for Randall not going along with him to Brokeback.  Jack would have to come up with a good lie, or just right out tell him, as a understanding in their relationship, he let him go once or twice a year to someone who needed him just as much as he did, tell the truth and take it from there.   

Lies, compromises, concessions.  How far can love take someone?     We seen in this relationship with Jack and Ennis.  Lies, compromises, concessions.   How out of realm of reality with these men.   Could this scenario have been possible?   

[tpe]

Lies, compromises, concessions.  How far can love take someone?     We seen in this relationship with Jack and Ennis.  Lies, compromises, concessions.   How out of realm of reality with these men.   Could this scenario have been possible?   

I think compromises and concessions are necessary if love is to live.  Sometimes, even lies may have to be told, although this is always a two-edged sword.  This was the main difficulty with Jack's relationship with Ennis was that it had stagnated when it came to "what next".  There was no possible compromise that was satisfactory in the long run.  And the lies dd not diminish on both sides. With Randall, there was the possibility of not just compromise but concession: to a shared life.  This was what Randall had going for him.

[welshwitch]

He also didn't have the history with Jack that Ennis did. they had been stuck in a repetitive pattern for many years; Randall was a newcomer and he and Jack could develop a relationship that could go in whatever direction they liked, as long as they were both committed to it. He also presented an alternative to going to Mexico for Jack, a way out of what Jack clearly felt as sexual and emotional frustration. 

[lamusica]

One thing about the party where Jack first met Randall has always made me wonder.  Did Randall pick up on Jack's being gay?  Or, did Randall just take a shot in the dark -- throw out a line and hope Jack was gay and would bite?  Or, did Jack, in some way I missed, throw out a line to Randall.  Although I've seen the movie so many times, this question always pops up in my head.  Did I miss something here?

[manhattangirl]

If you listen to LaShawn constant chattering, you'll pick up that they met them when their car broke down, so they knew each other before the party.    So this makes me believe Randall was checking Jack out before that night, and then decided to make his move.   Listen to LaShawn when she dancing with Jack you'll find out how they met.

[welshwitch]

I thought Randall's truck broke down on the way to the party and Jack picked them up. LaShawn uses that as a reason to make fun of Randall - thinking his truck was OK when it wasn't and not able to fix it when it conked out. I decided that she feels a certain contempt for him as Lureen seems to feel a certain contempt for Jack in this scene, and that that's an indication that both have the same sort of relationship with their husbands. I constructed a similar parallel between Jack and Randall, and assumed that they are in similar situations and recognise each other soon after they meet. Then they suss each other out during the dinnner they've obviously just eaten and Randall makes his move as soon as he is alone with Jack.

[manhattangirl]

ww,

Your ability to decipher what she said is better than mine,  but you're also right about your conclusion about how they feel about their husband.   But Randall was right on one thing, if LaShawn shut up for a minute she find out how her husband really feels about anything.

Do you think, do you think that what they recognized something in each other?  For men  being so careful about making such a move to another man could be so dangerous, what kind of courage it must take to make such a step? 

   

[lamusica]

I watched the movie again last night just to see the dinner party scene ( well, not JUST to see that scene!), but I still do not think they knew one another before that night.  Why would LaShawn tell them about Randall's educational background if they already knew one another?  And Jack comments about LS being a lively little thing.  I understand it to be that Jack and Lureen came across them having truck troubles and picked them up, found out they were headed to the same party, etc.  Jack later tells Randall that he will enjoy working for his new boss.
I agree with ww about the two women putting their husbands down.  I think this is very realistic.  Often, people who have been married for a long time do this to one another, sometimes not realizing they are even doing it.
I agree that Jack and Randall may be at the same spot in their marriages, and may have gravitated to one another because of that.
And, Manhattangirl, you're right about Randall being courageous to even approach Jack given the times.  But, you notice Jack never answers Randall.  LaS and Lureen come out talking and save Jack from having to respond to Randall's question about coming up to the cabin together sometime.  I wonder what Jack was going to respond.  This has always had me perplexed.  I wanted to hear Jack's answer, but it never comes.  The closest we ever get to finding out his answer is when Old Man Twist tells Ennis that Jack mentioned a neighboring rancher he was going to bring up to LF to whip the place in shape.  We have to assumer Randall and Jack did get together somewhere, somehow.

[aintfoolin]

Jack lied to Randall ( or skirted the real truth) about his affair with Randall. I agree they did get together. If he had nothing to hide why lie?  I also watched this scene recently and I think is was Jack who initiated thi staring contest between he and Randall . Even a blind man could see that Jack and Lureen 's marriage was on the rocks. With his back to Lureen, he and Randall engaged in this eye dance. I have been working on a theory as to why Jack asked LaShawn to dance like that. Some say it's to diss Lureen, but I think is was a little more calculating than that though I beleive that is true. So far I have come to the one conclusion that Jack planned on using LaShawn's aquaintance later... to distract Ennis away from he and Randall's little arrangement.Just in case.... I'm not blaming Jack at all and I understand Ennis's point too..... but sometimes I dont' understand. He's complicated.

[lamusica]

I don't know if Jack lied to Ennis about having an affair with a rancher's wife.  I think he probably had an affair with LaS and with Randall.  Having an affair with LaS would keep her from ever suspecting that he was messing with Randall.  I didn't take it to mean that Jack lied to Ennis -- just didn't divulge the whole truth. (Just MO_

[welshwitch]

I think they both know from the beginning that they're moving into dangerous territory. The dance with LaShawn could be the prelude to something more, I suppose, though judging by Jack's glazed expression he finds her pretty hard going. I think she' s more likely to be part of a distraction scenario - if people think Jack is interested in someone's wife, they won't suspect him of being interested in the husband. And of course in a macho sort of society having an eye for other women is acceptable, and a proof of " normality".

The story Jack tells Ennis may just be another part of the "I ain't queer" thing. If he were to admit to being involved with another man, that would be, aprt from any other effect it might have on Ennis, an admission that he IS queer, and by extension then so is Ennis, and Ennis is never ready to admit that, except after Jack's death.

[tpe]

He also didn't have the history with Jack that Ennis did. they had been stuck in a repetitive pattern for many years; Randall was a newcomer and he and Jack could develop a relationship that could go in whatever direction they liked, as long as they were both committed to it. He also presented an alternative to going to Mexico for Jack, a way out of what Jack clearly felt as sexual and emotional frustration. 

THis is true.  Randall did not have the emotional baggage of nearly 20 years.  True, there is a lot of shared intimacy and love in that baggage, but there was also a lot of hurt and misunderstanding...

[tpe]

One thing about the party where Jack first met Randall has always made me wonder.  Did Randall pick up on Jack's being gay?  Or, did Randall just take a shot in the dark -- throw out a line and hope Jack was gay and would bite?  Or, did Jack, in some way I missed, throw out a line to Randall.  Although I've seen the movie so many times, this question always pops up in my head.  Did I miss something here?

I personally thought that Randall sensed a connection.  Just yesterday I found out that an office mate of mine was gay; I had sensed this more than 2 years ago even though everything about him at work seemed to indicate the contrary.  I can't explain it, but it somehow makes sense to me that Randall (and Jack) had a similar sense...

[tpe]

If you listen to LaShawn constant chattering, you'll pick up that they met them when their car broke down, so they knew each other before the party.    So this makes me believe Randall was checking Jack out before that night, and then decided to make his move.   Listen to LaShawn when she dancing with Jack you'll find out how they met.

Hello manhattangirl .  You know, I thought that this occured on the way to the charity event that they were attending.  So I guess I had always thought that in the scene in the movie, they had just met...

Edit:  I see that you and WW already had a talk about this. 

[tpe]

I agree that Jack and Randall may be at the same spot in their marriages, and may have gravitated to one another because of that.

I also agree.  They had a number of things in common...

[tpe]

I have been working on a theory as to why Jack asked LaShawn to dance like that. Some say it's to diss Lureen, but I think is was a little more calculating than that though I beleive that is true. So far I have come to the one conclusion that Jack planned on using LaShawn's aquaintance later... to distract Ennis away from he and Randall's little arrangement.Just in case.... I'm not blaming Jack at all and I understand Ennis's point too..... but sometimes I dont' understand. He's complicated.

aintfoolin , how interesting.  It sounds plausible enough, although I admit that I did not see it this way...

 

[tpe]

I don't know if Jack lied to Ennis about having an affair with a rancher's wife.  I think he probably had an affair with LaS and with Randall.  Having an affair with LaS would keep her from ever suspecting that he was messing with Randall.  I didn't take it to mean that Jack lied to Ennis -- just didn't divulge the whole truth. (Just MO_

This is getting to be more interesting. 

Frankly, I had considered the possibility of Jack having an affair with both LaShawn and Randall, but have considered it much too complicated.  Well, perhaps Jack was...

[lamusica]

The reason I read it that way is because Jack told Ennis that he was afraid either the rancher or his wife would be gunning for him.  I realize he may not have meant that to indicate he was doing them both, but, knowing Jack, it certainly seems a possibility.  Another conundrum in this story.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Interesting posts.  I never considered the possiblity that Jack could have engaged in an affair with Randall & Blue Streak.  Of course we are exploring possibilities here.

[tpe]

The reason I read it that way is because Jack told Ennis that he was afraid either the rancher or his wife would be gunning for him.  I realize he may not have meant that to indicate he was doing them both, but, knowing Jack, it certainly seems a possibility.  Another conundrum in this story.

I think Jack was complicated enough to do this.  He certainly struck me as a risk-taker, and perhaps a simultaneous affair with Randall and LaShawn would have been a mirror or even foil to his ongoing problems with Ennis and Lureen.

[tpe]

Interesting posts.  I never considered the possiblity that Jack could have engaged in an affair with Randall & Blue Streak.  Of course we are exploring possibilities here.

And it would be interesting to speculate if Randall knew about such an affair or even encouraged it.  IMO, there would have been a number of possibilities of whay he could have acquiesced or encouraged this.  But I admit that this will all be pure speculation.

[aintfoolin]

 It is a possibility that Jack may have had an affair with LaShawn, but I doubt it . It was Randall who OMT stated Jack was bringing to LF not his wife. Why would Randall encourage an affair between his own wife and Jack? , when he wanted Jack to himself. Jack had already come to realize where his sexual inclinations lie and was already in a situation with Lurren that was not his real preference. He sought out men in every instance we see when he needed sexual gratification. Even with Lureen, it was she who sought Jack out, not the other way around.  It was the clown, male hustlers, Ennis and Randall himself who peaked Jack's interest. Yes anything is possible when we speculate, but one thing stands out. Jack sought out men only ,when obviously, with his charm and good looks, he would have no problems attracting women no doubt. Lied to Ennis about his affairs with Randall to spare Ennis this bombshell of a revelation, another man, and not just any man. A man whom  he was thinking seiously about replacing Ennis  with in his life. The lie also shows that Jack still held out hope that Ennis would come around. In case Ennis agreed with him some day  in the future and actually meets Jack's *ranch neighbor freinds* , his secret would remain just that ....a secret. I  also doubt that Jack would risk everything he wanted by trusting LaShawn to remain quiet about this to Lureen? Sleeping with LaShawn would only complicate matters even worse and Jack did'nt need that.  Besides IMO I cannot  see Ennis and LaShawn in competition for Jack's time.  though that would be a very interesting conversation between her and Ennis!! IMHO *all them things* Ennis did'nt know did not include LaShawn. Jack admitted a lie , a woman . This fits the pattern of women being *covers* for the truth of Jack , Ennis, and Randall's) real sexual inclinations.

[lamusica]

I think it is possible that LaS saught out Jack.  Her own husband was not satisfying her.  Perhaps she thought Jack would.  I see her as the foil.  Randall will not be suspected of going with Jack if LaS herself is involved with him.  Well, this is all just possibility, but when Jack tells Ennis he is involved with his neighbor's wife, I tend to think there is some truth to it.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

One thing I am certain of...Randall was definitely someone Jack gave serious thought to as far as a future.  I get the impression Jack may have mentioned Ennis more than once to his folks.  For Jack to suddenly change his tune and mention "this other fella" as the new person to help lick the ranch into shape, meant that Jack was at least coming to terms with Ennis maybe never committing to him.  Of course the hopeless romantic part of me still believes that time was cut short for the right outcome.  As much as I like the character of Randall, my heart will always want to believe that Randall did not stand a chance in the event Ennis ever said "Jack let's do it."

[tpe]

It is a possibility that Jack may have had an affair with LaShawn, but I doubt it . It was Randall who OMT stated Jack was bringing to LF not his wife. Why would Randall encourage an affair between his own wife and Jack? , when he wanted Jack to himself.

I had speculated if Randall was Machiavellian enough to do this, because fostering such a liason between Jack and LaShawn would have put both of them in his power.

But I too suspect that this is probably unlikely.  It did not seem that this was in the nature of Randall to do, especially if he was indeed qwilling to move to LF with Jack and abandon LaShawn...

[tpe]

I think it is possible that LaS saught out Jack.  Her own husband was not satisfying her.  Perhaps she thought Jack would.  I see her as the foil.  Randall will not be suspected of going with Jack if LaS herself is involved with him.  Well, this is all just possibility, but when Jack tells Ennis he is involved with his neighbor's wife, I tend to think there is some truth to it.

It is possible that LaShawn would have been the active agent in this regard, if such a liason did take place.  I think that Jack was possibly capable of being embroiled into something like this, although his dealings with Randall and Ennis would have been complicated enough!