Topic: Randall

[browneyes]

I didn't quite mean it like that. I mean think about it, why would Jack initiate a conversation outside with Randall? Why would he ask to dance with his wife? Its obvious Jack wanted to get Randall's attention.

[welshwitch]

Or just get away from the situation that Lureen's creating by getting at him and at LaShawn? Lureen's being a rich bitch and patronising LaShawn like crazy; dancing with LaShawn may just seem an easier option. It's also very reminiscent of Jack dancing with Lureen and Ennis dancing with Cassie - funny how what is often seen as a representation of harmony and pattern in this movie turns out to be the opposite.Randall seems to me to be keeping a low profile, as if he's afraid to get involved with the sniping of the two women, but once he's alone with Jack just puts a fairly clear proposition to him. Maybe he's as desperate as Jack was when he tried to pick up Jimbo.

[tpe]

I didn't quite mean it like that. I mean think about it, why would Jack initiate a conversation outside with Randall? Why would he ask to dance with his wife? Its obvious Jack wanted to get Randall's attention.

Well, Randall was certainly trying to make eye contact in the beginning of the scene, and I did get the impression that Jack noted it, but really didn't seem that interested.  As for dancing with Randall's wife, I rather interpreted it as a way of getting back at Lureen for her snide remark -- as attested by her chastened look after Jack rose to dance with Lashawn.

But I should emphasize tht there is probably no single interpretation to this scene.  Your interpretation is as good as mine, because of the subtlety of the story and the amiguity preserved in the movie realization.  We should all cherish and appreciate this for what it allows us to envision and discuss.   It probably reveals more about ourselves than about the characters we seek to interpret.

[browneyes]

Yes, Randall did make eye contact with Jack (and a rather suggestive smile). But Jack initiated conversation with Randall outside. Why would Jack do that?

And Tpe, you don't think Jack saw Randall often?

[tpe]

Yes, Randall did make eye contact with Jack (and a rather suggestive smile). But Jack initiated conversation with Randall outside. Why would Jack do that?

And Tpe, you don't think Jack saw Randall often?

Hello browneyes. 

I thought the initiation of talk was for politeness sake.  Silence is sometimes deafening to some people and they would rather talk than brook silence.  Jack could have felt awkward being silent seated right next to a new acquaintance and therefore initiated a conversation.  This is a possibility -- not a fact.

As for seeing Randall often, I can say what I feel as opposed to what really is.  How I feel: yes, I wish inside of me that Jack did not see Randall that often (well at least, initially),  As to what really is: we shall never really know...

[browneyes]

I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!

[tpe]

I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!

Indeed I say this with relish: no. 

It's a matter of faith, I guess...

[Twisted]

I guess that is a possibility when it comes to the conversation. So do u think Jack could love Randall like Ennis? For the love of God say no!

I say it too. No way in h**l

[browneyes]

I don't think he saw Randall that often. I'm sure when Jack was about to go off with Ennis he would avoid Randall like the plague and probably for a little while after the trip with Ennis. Probably out of guilt, but then out of satisfaction that he saw Ennis/or was gonna see him.

You know what I mean?

[tpe]

I don't think he saw Randall that often. I'm sure when Jack was about to go off with Ennis he would avoid Randall like the plague and probably for a little while after the trip with Ennis. Probably out of guilt, but then out of satisfaction that he saw Ennis/or was gonna see him.

You know what I mean?

Yes, I had always felt that Ennis was everything for Jack.  Jack would drop everything to be with Ennis.

[browneyes]

I totally agree. Thats why Jack kept going back to Ennis. He was never happy with Lureen, the Mexican prostitute, Randall or anyone the only time he was ever happy was when he was with Ennis. And even if he did try and make a life with Randall, he would've dropped Randall like a bad habit if Ennis agreed to build a life with Jack.

[Mélanos]

Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?

[browneyes]

Thats why I don't think he saw Randall often because he said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get". I think that proves he tried not to cheat on Ennis but when the "cravings" got too bad, he saw either Randall or a prostitute.

[aimi15]

Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?

Hmm. A bit O/T, but this is a really interesting point. I don't really see Jack and Ennis as being that happy dancing with Lureen and Cassie, more going through the motions of courtship.

Great topic this BTW. Randall is one character i tend to avoid as i find him a little unnerving. Don't know why but he makes my skin crawl a little. Maybe it the blatancy of his advances towards Jack, whereas Ennis was more the sort to be drawn out BY Jack, Randall seemed to do all the running. Maybe there is some truth to the old adage, if it's handed on a plate? I don't really blame Jack for it - i wonder if in a way it was a getting back at Ennis - it gave Jack a little bit of comfort knowing that somewhere he could call the shots because Randall was so easy?

[tpe]

Hello Browneyes, Welshwitch and Tpe... that topic is quite interesting because of the question of the Randall affair still puzzle me. It seems to me that dancing is a very important thing in the movie, on Brokeback Jack and Ennis begin a kind of dance, like in chinese cinema (remember "Hidden dragon, crounching tiger"), later Jack dance with Lureen (and seems quite happy, that is not a convenience wedding) aqnd Ennis with Cassie (but never Alma). Dance means desire, that is the question of Lureen. The answer of Jack is to dance with LaShawn... What do you think of that? that is exactly what he told to Ennis... Later, when he speak of his sexuality it is "hardly never", with whom?

The Randall affair certainly puzzles me too, and I am sure there are deleted scenes dealing with this subject.  It is really hard to encircle one's arms around this, although I find your idea of the significance of dancing quite intreiguing and perhaps a possible germ for another interesting thread...

There must be something more to many of the dancing scenes in the movie, no?

[aintfoolin]

To me it appears that the dance is over and they're gettingready to leave evidently by Jack's remark about women powdering their nose just to go home and go to bed. They both seem nervous to me . Searching for something to say, when Jack initiates the conversation about Randall's future boss "good ole boy". Obviously, Lureen and LaShawn are in the ladiess' room and they' waiting outside.Jack seems uncomfortable with Randall at this point but there seems to be an underlying message here that Jack knows that Randall wants somthing. I think Jack knows the (comon is coming) Anyone else get this feeling?.   And who suggested they wait outside? JacK? Randall? Reading bteen the lines and filling in the blanks inthis movie can be FUN!

[browneyes]

Than makes sense. Its possible Jack knows Randall wants something. When Randall looked at Jack and smiled I bet he was thinking "how would this guy look without any clothes on?".

[Mélanos]

The couple Malone is just like a miror picture of the Twist'. LaShawn is a caricature of Lureen, and Randall... well I think that if Jack is not at ease, it is because he see a caricature of himself. Jack has been a good boy and built what Ennis told him to built, a good Texas cow-boy... what he see is a Marlboro cow-boy bought by a spoiled girl! Of course I'm quick, and above all Jack is mourning Ennis!

[aintfoolin]

Now THAT'S what Im talkin about!

[browneyes]

What do u mean by "Jack is mourning Ennis"

[aintfoolin]

Undressing Jack with our eyes? Yeah. Yeah YEAH.

[stacp]

Thats why I don't think he saw Randall often because he said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get". I think that proves he tried not to cheat on Ennis but when the "cravings" got too bad, he saw either Randall or a prostitute.

The "needin' something I don't hardly never get" line could mean specifically intimacy with Ennis.  Jack needs to be intimate with Ennis and hardly ever gets to be.  So, he has to scratch the itch with a poor sub for Ennis, such as the prostitute or Randall. 

I think Jack wasn't looking for a chance to be alone with Randall or anything when they set outside on the bench waiting for their wives.  Jack, to me like TPE said, was just making social conversation with Randall when Randall crudely, IMO, asked him to meet for sex.  Jack looked pretty taken aback to me.  Maybe Jack was just shocked there was another closeted man in his midst,and one not as closed off as Ennis.  Jack didn't look all that thrilled to me, like "hot damn, now I can get me some sex anytime I want."  I think Jack, at that moment, thought of Ennis and felt lonely for Ennis sitting there with Randall.  He wished it was Ennis there instead of Randall.

[CrimsonSky]

Jack obviously had a much higher sex drive than Ennis, and needed to satisfy it in anyway he could, since Ennis wasn't around (and in Jack's eyes, that's Ennis's choice) Jack has to make do with, as stacp put it, poor subs. Randall, being a neighbour, was just more convenient than having to go to Mexico every time it got too much for Jack.

I don't like saying this, but I don't think the scene at the dance is all one-sided. Jack is all too aware that Randall's interested in him, and when he returns his look, he's not exactly trying to discourage him. But I agree that when they're outside, he's thinking of Ennis, and I like the comparison with the scene where he's dancing with Lureen, it has that same feeling of "well, I'm never going to get what I want, so I might as well settle for what's on offer"   Randall's words probably didn't help either, suggesting they "get away,drink some whiskey, do some fishing..." that's exactly what he and Ennis did (well, they never actually did any fishing, but you know what I mean ). 

[tpe]

I am amazed that Randall is quite a key to a lot of our own complex feelings about Jack.   A good thread.  Great posts. 

Thanks all.

[aintfoolin]

Why is it that  these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other?  Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man  may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?

[stacp]

Why is it that  these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other?  Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man  may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?

Here's my take on it, for what it's worth.     Ennis, in particular, is in total denial about his homosexuality.  Jack knows this.  So, in order for Ennis to be okay with meeting Jack and continuing their affair, Ennis tells himself that he and Jack are just a couple of heterosexual men who happen to have sex once in a while.  Jack implicitly agrees to keep up the charade, knowing that he would spook Ennis if Jack ever laid all the cards on the table, e.g., admitting he was gay and telling Ennis he loved him.  So, Ennis and Jack continue their "posturing" throughout their relationship, pretending to be straight.  Ennis tells Jack about his fling with Cassie, who he obviously doesn't know squat about, and Jack pretends to be having an affair with LaShawn.  Ennis needs this charade to continue to feel like they "ain't queer."  So, in a way, he wants to hear Jack is banging women.  This means they're really heterosexual, right?  But, deep down, they both know what lights each other's fires and that's men.  So, I think both Jack and Ennis could go out and sleep with hundreds of women.  No big deal.  It's no threat to either of them or their love.  But if Ennis hears Jack is sleeping with other men, then, whoa, what a second, that's a threat.  Ennis knows Jack really wants a man.  So, Ennis turns into a green eyed monster.  These two really needed couch time with Dr. Phil.   

[aintfoolin]

It's hard to understand this line of rationalized thinking on their part. Jack must be pretty angry at Ennis deep inside huh  I love these two characters but I have questions about Jack's fidelity.If he understands Ennis and loves him , he would wait right? And Ennis should try to see it Jack"s way alittle harder too   As always IMHO.

[Mélanos]

Sorry Browneyes, I was too sleepy to stay online and Stacp I'm Ok with most of what you say, the "charade" part!

The grieving of Jack is in two steps. Well, it is my point of vue, a little particular maybe, so be patient, it might be long! After the second meeting we see Jack getting better and better when Ennis is getting down. After the divorce it became the opposite. Jack went to Riverton in pure excitation and he made two mistakes:

• First he went because he thought he could be a cure for his friend's pain and he discover he is the cause
• Second he asked his way at ten persons.... his place was "out of nowhere" not in Riverton, see how Ennis see the car that pass away

So there is a break, the dance is over, Jack received his second bad punch. He is not going to Mexico by lust, he is trying to quit Ennis! Jack is an abused child (remember what hapened when he was four years) and like all the abused children he is in the power of the hangman, John, his father. Ennis is the opposite, he is under his power too, but that is the way of life. With Ennis, he is like a child and he could not bear to be forlorn a second time. In Mexico, he try to be a man, he is not having sex or fun (look his face), he take the post of his father and he, himself, will abuse a child, the hustler, a willing one. First step of mourning, he takes a mustache a virile attribute but loose he smile, we shall never see him happy after.

The second step is during the stroll that follow. Jack try again to cure Ennis of his sadness, as always he jokes of himself, of his life in Texas, and it goes. For a moment Ennis opens himself and speak of his fear, that is the only time! But Jack is afraid now and his answer is elusive. He said "maybe you should leave" and he he would have said "Yes, I know that fear, when I met again Aguirre I was so terrified that I ran away down to Texas" Ennis understand that Jack is joking with him and burst out in rage.... "Jack, f** Twist". It all tenderness at the second meeting but now it is a leaving. Jack understand that he will never be anymore the cure for Ennis and that was the core of his desire for him. That is why he is not only grieving, he is dying: Randall is too late, Jack has not enough life in him... "sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it!" that is not a figure of style, that is pure truth

As I said, it is my point of view, others are possibles!

[welshwitch]

The Randall affair is a compromise and part of reality. Ennis is the ideal, but unattainable, like most dreams. Jack's a dreamer and clings to the dream; he's also a realist, and settles, unhappily I think, for what he can get as a poor substitute in the real world of Childress. I don't think he'd try to make a connection with another man there - too close too home, too well-known as a salesman and LD's son-in-law - but if the opportunity presents itself unasked for, welll, that might be different.

AS for going outside, I'd assumed the party was breaking up and while LaSahawn and Lureen went off to tart themselves up and go on bitching, the two men wanted to get away from the crowd/noise/out into the fresh air/near to the car ready to go home.   

[browneyes]

I agree that Jack was hoping Ennis was there instead of Randall. Jack just got so desperate and lonely. Randall probably had other sex partners too, so that would probably mean Jack couldn't see him often.