Author Topic: Randall (Read 233980 times)

Mélanos · « **Reply #90 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 07:43 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 08, 2006, 07:13 AM

I agree that Jack was hoping Ennis was there instead of Randall. Jack just got so desperate and lonely. Randall probably had other sex partners too, so that would probably mean Jack couldn't see him often.

Hardly never!

welshwitch · « **Reply #91 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 02:10 PM »

Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.

(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)

Mélanos · « **Reply #92 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 02:28 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 08, 2006, 02:10 PM

Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.

(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)

Welshwitch, one more time you hit the score!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #93 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 03:23 PM »

Randall and LaShawn, what a pair.No wonder he went after Jack.LaShawn just won't shut up.Just watched this again and Jack IS looking at Randall when he asks LaShawn to dance . Jack must have been desperate! for affection. Ennis , where are you bud?

tpe · « **Reply #94 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:26 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 07, 2006, 07:09 PM

Why is it that these guys can joke around about sleeping with other women,but if it's another man they're eady to kill each other? Is there a double standard here or am I missing something? Is it the threat because they're gay and seeing another man may more likely jepordize the relationship? If I'm in love, I don't share with ANYBODY. Please help me understand this. I may sound judgemental towards Jack but......... What's going on here?

I think it is partly because both Ennis and Jack understand that for them to survive, they have to blend in -- in a society that expects them to consort with women and be interested in marrying and raining families. I do think this was a question of survival in an environment hostile to homoerotic relationships. This is just my opinion...

tpe · « **Reply #95 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:29 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 08, 2006, 02:28 PM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 08, 2006, 02:10 PM
Poor old Randall, now he's promiscuous/unfaithful/whatever. Maybe the guy is just stuck in an empty marriage - no-one could love LaSahwn - but knows what he is and what he wants, which he sees in Jack. Maybe he jst sets eyes on Jack and can hardly believe waht he sees.

(Actually he gives me the creeps - I think he looks like one of the undead.)

Welshwitch, one more time you hit the score!

I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!

Rønnaug · « **Reply #96 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:31 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 08, 2006, 06:29 PM

I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!

Very good point tpe... I never thought of that, he is just like Jack and Ennis, he might be bi but... he is clearly not happy in his marraige and looking for something, anything to make him feel whole I guess... at lest someone that will see him

tpe · « **Reply #97 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:36 PM »

Quote from: Esme on Jul 08, 2006, 06:31 PM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 08, 2006, 06:29 PM

I feel sorry for Randall. After all, he might just be another Ennis waiting to find his Jack... But please: NOT OUR JACK!

Very good point tpe... I never thought of that, he is just like Jack and Ennis, he might be bi but... he is clearly not happy in his marraige and looking for something, anything to make him feel whole I guess... at lest someone that will see him

He certainly kept to himself in a way very similar to Ennis. But there must be so many differences between them: Randal was clearly College-educated. Would this have been a plus or a minus with reference to Jack, I wonder? And yes, perhaps Randall was also bi. But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #98 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:39 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 08, 2006, 06:36 PM

But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.

No, but I don't think Randall would have made a pass at JAck had he beenhappiløy married..didn't strike me as that type...

Damn.. I no longer despise Randall...

tpe · « **Reply #99 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 06:42 PM »

Quote from: Esme on Jul 08, 2006, 06:39 PM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 08, 2006, 06:36 PM
But I could never picture Ennis doing the same oblique proposal that Randall made to Jack... Randall was probably less traumatized than Ennis.

No, but I don't think Randall would have made a pass at JAck had he beenhappiløy married..didn't strike me as that type...

Damn.. I no longer despise Randall...

I really wonder how our feelings would have changed if we actually saw some of the deleted scenes that involved him and Jack. If we knew a bit more about this -- whether he loved Jack or not -- we could react more clearly.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #100 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 07:30 PM »

Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.

stacp · « **Reply #101 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 09:27 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 08, 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.

Very good point, aintfoolin. We are so protective of the Jack and Ennis love. I didn't want anyone to come in between them. To me, the idea of Randall loving Jack or Jack having any type of feelings for Randall just diminishes the love story between Jack and Ennis. I know that it wouldn't change the fact that Jack and Ennis were the love of each others' lives, but I just don't want to figure Randall out. I want to leave him as the cheesy guy who met Jack and, an hour later, says "let's get together and f***k." I am glad Ang left the movie so we could interpret Randall in this way.

CherryCake · « **Reply #102 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 10:31 PM »

Quote from: stacp on Jul 08, 2006, 09:27 PM

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 08, 2006, 07:30 PM
Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.

Very good point, aintfoolin. We are so protective of the Jack and Ennis love. I didn't want anyone to come in between them. To me, the idea of Randall loving Jack or Jack having any type of feelings for Randall just diminishes the love story between Jack and Ennis. I know that it wouldn't change the fact that Jack and Ennis were the love of each others' lives, but I just don't want to figure Randall out. I want to leave him as the cheesy guy who met Jack and, an hour later, says "let's get together and f***k." I am glad Ang left the movie so we could interpret Randall in this way.

Oh, you two are soo right on... Jake and Heath are great. Jack and Ennis belonged together..

welshwitch · « **Reply #103 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 07:37 AM »

I don't have a problem with Randall, or indeed anyone, loving Jack - he is a lovable character. ut we tend to be committed to the concept of Jack and Ennis as great lovers; you can't imagine Romeo or Eloise getting involved with someone else when faced with obstacles between them and theone they love, so you don't want to see Jack doing so either.

But Jack is more like real life, full of compromises and unsatisfactory solutions-that-aren't, and the slow death of the heart that they cause.

browneyes · « **Reply #104 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 08:11 AM »

I don't think Randall ever loved Jack. There might've been feelings, maybe. But how can u love someone, when the other person is deeply in love with someone else? And, believe me, you would know if that person didn't love you. And above all, there men, with men there can be little or no emotions ina relationship, sometimes. With Ennis and Cassie its different, Ennis was using her as a cover-up. I just couldn't even imagine Jack even laughing when he was with Randall. But he could with Ennis.

welshwitch · « **Reply #105 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 11:26 AM »

How can you love someone when that person is deeply in love with someone else?

In a word, easily.

It's not only men who get involved in relationships to which they have no emotional commitment....

Mélanos · « **Reply #106 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 12:13 PM »

As I understand Jack and Ennis there is no opposition between what they share together, wich is pure passion, and the bind they have with women. Ennis was realy in love with Alma, in the beguining at last: just look at them in their honeymoon travel in the mountain and after, in the little cabin. Thir love stumble on the question of violence, Alma is afraid (see the firework scene). Ennis believe that his desire is dangerous, that why he leaves... or rather push Alma to leave. With Cassie? it could have been, it not a simple cover, Ennis is not cynical.
Jack is realy in love with Lureen, see how they dance, how they look one to the other. Ennis and Jack do need their homosexual bind to be able to have heterosexuality... I have met bisexual men who were like that. Jake said that, in his mind, Lureen know and has always known, she is not afraid, she understand that like a way. Herself had some problem to be separated from her father... Randall, it would have been quite an other problem that why I think there was nothing or nearly nothing with Jack. Even when you are at the diet you may have a look at the menu?

stacp · « **Reply #107 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 01:18 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 09, 2006, 12:13 PM

As I understand Jack and Ennis there is no opposition between what they share together, wich is pure passion, and the bind they have with women. Ennis was realy in love with Alma, in the beginning at last: just look at them in their honeymoon travel in the mountain and after, in the little cabin. Thir love stumble on the question of violence, Alma is afraid (see the firework scene). Ennis believe that his desire is dangerous, that why he leaves... or rather push Alma to leave. With Cassie? it could have been, it not a simple cover, Ennis is not cynical.
Jack is realy in love with Lureen, see how they dance, how they look one to the other. Ennis and Jack do need their homosexual bind to be able to have heterosexuality... I have met bisexual men who were like that. Jake said that, in his mind, Lureen know and has always known, she is not afraid, she understand that like a way. Herself had some problem to be separated from her father... Randall, it would have been quite an other problem that why I think there was nothing or nearly nothing with Jack. Even when you are at the diet you may have a look at the menu?

I agree that there was no competition for the kind of love Jack and Ennis shared. Theirs was a soulmate, love of your life type of love that, IMO, never wanes but only gets stronger over the years. But I don't really know if Ennis was in love with Alma and if he pushed her to leave because of his violent tendencies. I will agree there was a degree of love or affection between Alma and Ennis in the beginning; the sledding scene for example, shows them having fun and being playful (although I think this scene was also included to show Ennis trying to rough-house with Alma like he did with Jack). But I really didn't see Ennis as pushing Alma to leave the marriage; if anything, I think Ennis would've stayed with her until the bitter end. Alma was the mother of his children, and Ennis' claim to a normal, heterosexual life. Yes, he gave up sex with her, but you'll notice there are tears in his eyes at the divorce hearing. I think he is genuinely sad they are divorcing. In the short story, it is Alma who says "what the hell am I doing here" and leaves. Ennis wasn't the ideal husband by any means, but I don't know if he consciously pushed her toward divorce. If Jack is really in love with Lureen, well I just didn't see it. I think he was fond of her and maybe loved her in his own way, but I don't see a deep love between them. When they were dancing, yes they were laughing at first, but then Jack gets that faraway look in his eyes like he is thinking about and longing for Ennis (similar to the look Ennis gives when Alma has her arms around him in the bedroom scene). This of course is just my interpretation.

welshwitch · « **Reply #108 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 01:33 PM »

I feel the same, Flwrchild; Ennis has fun in the snow with Alma, but there's nothing lasting about that - later he mostly seems to be doing what he thinks he has to do - working, helpimg with the kids - but doing the bare minimum and devoting his free time and energy to Jack. The same is true, I think, of Jack and Lureen; Jack's highly sexed and maybe treats Lureen an one outlet for his desires, but she isn't what he wants and if there ever was love between them it erodes pretty quickly - even in the scene with the new baby she's much more involved with the baby and her parents than she is with Jack. They never settle into a sort of routine affection, either; she's too tied up with making money. Randall could, if you wanted to look at it that way, be seen as a Lureen substitute, filling in the Texas space for Jack, but never even verging on the Brokeback one.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #109 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 01:49 PM »

Lureen and Jack had more of a friendly marriage than a loving one. There was alot of different reasons for Jack to be with her, I dont't think the love was there. They liked each other alot in the beginning but Jack was always dealing with with his feelings forE nnis through out this. therefore this marriage never got the chance to grow L.D. did'nt help either berating him every chance he got. I don't think the baby was a planned thing either.Jack was just going with the program until Ennis came to his senses. unfortunatly he did too late. IMHO

browneyes · « **Reply #110 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 02:06 PM »

Melanos, I totally agree with u. But when u say there was little or nothing there with Jack or Randall do u mean feelings/emotions or sex (in other words, no sexual affair)?

tpe · « **Reply #111 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 03:00 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 08, 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes. if we knew a little bit more about this relationship, we could figure Randall a little. maybe even have a little aympathy for him. At as it stands now ,he cant't have our Jack . We're pretty protective of Jack's heart are'nt we? A tribute to Jake G. He touched ours so deeply with his portrayal of Jack Twist.

But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.

tpe · « **Reply #112 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 03:10 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 09, 2006, 07:37 AM

I don't have a problem with Randall, or indeed anyone, loving Jack - he is a lovable character. ut we tend to be committed to the concept of Jack and Ennis as great lovers; you can't imagine Romeo or Eloise getting involved with someone else when faced with obstacles between them and theone they love, so you don't want to see Jack doing so either.

But Jack is more like real life, full of compromises and unsatisfactory solutions-that-aren't, and the slow death of the heart that they cause.

I do not have the strength to condemn Randall. Jack is indeed a loveable character. If I were in Randall's shoes, I would move the world to have him.

Mélanos · « **Reply #113 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 03:15 PM »

Thanks to all the replies...

Stacp, mine is just another point of view. I Think violence is the core of Ennis'problem. The meeting with the bear announce it and after the first relation with Jack, he is terrified, that is the meaning of the eviscerated sheep. Adult and male sexuality is linked for him with the identification with his murderous father. What is extraordinary for him with Jack it is is that Jack is not afraid, Jack does not see him as the monster he feel being. For him the first step to love is being gratefull! Jack made him speak, made him laugh, made him alive!
Welshwich, I imagine love between Alma and Ennis as a quiet thing. Of course that is because of Jack that he is able to love, and the mointain scene is quite a copy of Brokeback. I think that, in his little cabin, Ennis is happy: he succed! He is building a family in the little ranch he lost after the death of his parents. Again he is gratefull but this story is going to fail. Alma is a city girl, she tries to get Ennis in her quiet little dream with Riverton and the parish and Ennis is truly a man of nature
aintfooling, I think that for Jack and Alma it is different. The problem of Jack is his inability to access to malness and adulthood. Ennis was the first one to treat him like a man, to let him lead, to see him as a human personn and not a clown (remember Jimbo) Lureen is the second one, she made him win in rodeo (before the meeting he was a looser). After the birth of Bobby, when the awfull L.D. tries to deny the fatherhood of Jack, she sent a wink, she is on his side, right beside her she has a great picture oh them both. Lureen in the film has nothing to do with the one of the SS and few with the one of the screenplay. Of course Jack laugh at her when he talk of her way with the zeros on the machine but he is tring to lighten up Ennis and he did the same thing on Brokeback: he joked about rodeo wich was the most sacred thing for him! Jack has divided his life in parts that never meet
And, last but not least, browneyes, Randall! I believe we must not be impressed by the time line of the screenplay: in the film time is "special", the bal in Childress is just before the last meeting. Let us forget those three or five years: we don't see them in the film so they don't exist! Randall was just a meeting, but too late, much too late

In fact, I pooled all the answers, sorry! and thank you foryour patience with my oddities!

Mélanos · « **Reply #114 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 04:01 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 09, 2006, 03:00 PM

But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.

Beautifull poem, tpe, I don't kown if anyone, man or woman, could stay zen besides Jack... just look this picture and look this grin!, Jack, all in black, for what mourning? Lureen all in white, like a death angel, she seems to be bored! Jack, the little ranch hand, is at the top of his glory with the upper class of Childress and everything is hollow... does he smiles to Randall? no, he snarls, he is trying to stay awake, he plays with fire, he dance with LaShawn, he light up Randall... Poor Randall, in what mess he went!... nice guy... not very bright... not a beauty, what can you think Jack did?

tpe · « **Reply #115 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 04:31 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 09, 2006, 04:01 PM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 09, 2006, 03:00 PM

But tho' a thousand hearts there be,
To you their adoration owe;
In this you are as poor as we,
You have but one you can bestow.
'Tis this that gives me all my care,
Whilst trembling for my doom I stand;
'Tis this that racks me with despair,
For fear I should not be the man.

Beautifull poem, tpe, I don't kown if anyone, man or woman, could stay zen besides Jack... just look this picture and look this grin!, Jack, all in black, for what mourning? Lureen all in white, like a death angel, she seems to be bored! Jack, the little ranch hand, is at the top of his glory with the upper class of Childress and everything is hollow... does he smiles to Randall? no, he snarls, he is trying to stay awake, he plays with fire, he dance with LaShawn, he light up Randall... Poor Randall, in what mess he went!... nice guy... not very bright... not a beauty, what can you think Jack did?

Thanks Mélanos.

You know, the red wine in that pic is so blood-red. One almost sees in the mind's eye the hunter and the hunted...

The other pendant (Randall is probably looking at Jack, no?):

Waken lords and ladies gay,
To the greenwood haste away;
We can show you where he lies,
Fleet of foot and tall of size;
We can show the marks he made
When 'gainst the oak his antlers frayed;
You shall see him brought to bay;
Waken, lords and ladies gay.

(Sir Walter Scott)

welshwitch · « **Reply #116 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 04:36 PM »

And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.

tpe · « **Reply #117 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 04:38 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 09, 2006, 04:36 PM

And LaShawn is looking at him, and Randall is looking right past her at Jack. Maybe Jack offers to dance with LaShawn to get away from a look that might be giving something away? It always seems a very abrupt invitation to me.

This thought did occur to me...

welshwitch · « **Reply #118 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 04:50 PM »

Jack could also be doing it to spite Lureen, I suppose - he hasn't apparently danced with her - or he could be trying to get her away from Lureen to deprive Lureen of the chance of more put-downs but there seems to be more to it. Let's face it, he's not doing it to enjoy her intelligent conversation. While they are dancing his expression is interesting, too, a sort of unchanging "social" smile that betrays total lack of interest in her. Maybe he's giving Randall a chance to size him up, just as he did when he met Ennis.

browneyes · « **Reply #119 on:** Jul 09, 2006, 06:35 PM »

If you look at the scene where he dances with LaShaun he keeps looking back at the table. I think he notices that Randall is looking at him and thats why Jack is looking back. Kind of like a "is this dude looking at me?", type of thing. I do it sometimes where I'm off somewhere and you can just tell someone's looking at you. So you keep on looking back. I think most of us can relate to that.