Author Topic: Randall (Read 236547 times)

tpe · « **Reply #480 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 02:24 PM »

I think the ambiguity in Jack's death is tied to the ambiguity of his relationship with Randall. These ambiguities are so powerful. It is good that we don't know for sure...

welshwitch · « **Reply #481 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 11:26 PM »

You could argue that if Jack's death were merely an accident, it lacks a tragic dimension, whereas if he is the victim of homophobes, his death is not just a tragic waste and a demonstration of the evils of prejudice, but also a source of terror for Randall and one which might impact on the rest of his life as Ennis's seeing the dead body affected him.

tpe · « **Reply #482 on:** Jan 31, 2007, 10:28 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jan 30, 2007, 11:26 PM

You could argue that if Jack's death were merely an accident, it lacks a tragic dimension, whereas if he is the victim of homophobes, his death is not just a tragic waste and a demonstration of the evils of prejudice, but also a source of terror for Randall and one which might impact on the rest of his life as Ennis's seeing the dead body affected him.

Great parallel, WW, between Ennis's childhood experience and the possible effect of Jack's death on Randall.

welshwitch · « **Reply #483 on:** Feb 01, 2007, 01:32 AM »

I took Jack's death, as envisioned by Ennis, to be part of the circle begun by Ennis's being shown Earl's body - thirty years had passed, but essentially nothing had changed. Though Randall wouldn;t have been shown Jack's body, he must have known what had happened, the official version at least, and probably guess the rest, so I assume would have been frightened and intimidated, though maybe since he's older not as profoundly as Ennis was.

Nevertheless, it would be terrible to live with the idea that by becoming involved with someone - and Randall made the first move - you'd been instrumental in bringing about their death. Jack had kept his involvement with Ennis a secret for sixteen years - it seesm unlikely that that was what led to his death.

tpe · « **Reply #484 on:** Feb 01, 2007, 08:39 AM »

It must have been terrible for Randall, although I suspect he was savvy enough to hide his true feelings.

As Lureen who became too engrossed with business to care about her marriage, so too that LaShawn was not observant enough to be able to discern anything wrong with Randall. I am quite sure that Randall would be safe so long as he hid behind his marriage with LaShawn. But if he and Jack were observed by other more watchful individuals in Childress, then there is concern enough here for Randall to contemplate lying low for a time, if not moving out entirely.

JT · « **Reply #485 on:** Feb 05, 2007, 09:45 PM »

I don't think it's all that safe for Randall even if he hide behind his marriage considering that Jack was a married man. Moving out is still his best bet, I think.

tpe · « **Reply #486 on:** Feb 06, 2007, 10:11 AM »

Quote from: JT on Feb 05, 2007, 09:45 PM

I don't think it's all that safe for Randall even if he hide behind his marriage considering that Jack was a married man. Moving out is still his best bet, I think.

I do agree. In any case, he was relatively mobile, given his education and his relative newness in Childress (where he probably had had sufficient time to put in roots).

welshwitch · « **Reply #487 on:** Feb 06, 2007, 01:31 PM »

In which case, if it happened, he ( and possibly LaShaw) would be just two more people whose lives are disrupted by the aftermath of the Jack and Ennis thing.

JT · « **Reply #488 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 01:12 PM »

It's amazing, and sad, how many lives were affected by not letting Jack and Ennis be together in the first place. Their wives, childrens, parents, in-laws, Cassie, and now Randall and LaShawn.

tpe · « **Reply #489 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 01:20 PM »

Quote from: JT on Feb 07, 2007, 01:12 PM

It's amazing, and sad, how many lives were affected by not letting Jack and Ennis be together in the first place. Their wives, childrens, parents, in-laws, Cassie, and now Randall and LaShawn.

Was Randall happy with Jack? I would think so. If Randall did plan to settle with Jack, then it would also have meant a divorce from LaShawn. Whether Jack lived or not -- either way -- Randall's life has already been affected: for better or for worse...

JT · « **Reply #490 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 01:39 PM »

I think Randall did love Jack, although probably not as strong as Ennis's love for Jack. So he'll either divorce LaShawn or live a double life for a while. But like you say, no matter what, their lives were changed.

tpe · « **Reply #491 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 02:09 PM »

Quote from: JT on Feb 07, 2007, 01:39 PM

I think Randall did love Jack, although probably not as strong as Ennis's love for Jack. So he'll either divorce LaShawn or live a double life for a while. But like you say, no matter what, their lives were changed.

If Randall would have moved up to LF with Jack, then I think it would be difficult to hide the truth from LaShawn. I don't think Randall would have told her the truth. But in any case, he had to think of some grounds for divorce. Irreconcilable differences?

JT · « **Reply #492 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 02:34 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 07, 2007, 02:09 PM

If Randall would have moved up to LF with Jack, then I think it would be difficult to hide the truth from LaShawn. I don't think Randall would have told her the truth. But in any case, he had to think of some grounds for divorce. Irreconcilable differences?

There are plenty of reasons for getting a divorce with LaShawn. Her constant talking is probably the best.

tpe · « **Reply #493 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 02:48 PM »

Quote from: JT on Feb 07, 2007, 02:34 PM

There are plenty of reasons for getting a divorce with LaShawn. Her constant talking is probably the best.

Randall must have mastered the trick of ignoring 99% of what she says... If anything, he must be a patient man...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #494 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 02:52 PM »

Yes, it seems every one's life was affected by Jack and Ennis's desire to be together no doubt. But as far as the "murder" I feel this was part of Ennis's paranoid thinking kicking in. After all it was his fear all along for not committing to Jack. It's what he feared all along, that Jack,would get careless and the tireirons would get him...just like like they got Earl. By not being with Jack in the open was his way of protecting him, though IMO it should have been the other way around, that had Ennis been with Jack, like he wanted he could have posisibly prevented Jack's death. Thus we have Ennis's post-Jack guilt about not being there for when needed him the most. But I still don't get what Randall would have to gain by being anyway involved in Jack's death. He had it good as far as I can see. The perfect cover and Jack on the side. Why would he wanna ever f--ckup this excellent set-up? To me Jack's death remains a tragic mystery,although I still suspect Lureen knew something she was'nt telling in my opinion.My 2 cents on the matter.

tpe · « **Reply #495 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 02:59 PM »

I agree aintfoolin, in that I still suspect Lureen. I wonder how much of the real truth did Randall know concerning Jack's death?

OT: Interesting that you think that the "murder" was purely in Ennis's mind. This, of course, IS a possibility. I would assume you suspect Lureen?

aintfoolin · « **Reply #496 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 04:22 PM »

It's no secret that Lureen and Jack's marriage was going to eventually come to a screeching halt had jack lived and Lureen would have alot to loose if that happened. After all Jack was important financially to the business. Any thought or talk of divorce or gossipy affairs (especially this one and Randall too)would have been a threat to reputations and pride.
I'm not saying that Jack's death was Lureen's doing directly, but she just seemed so cold to Ennis over the phone and so REHERASED. That she and someone else had gotten the "story straight " that they were going to tell in case anyone asked for details. This is the feeling I got. I get the strong feeling that she knew more than she was telling about the circumstances surrounding Jack's death.
I beleive that all Ennis's "sacrifices" were for one purpose,and that was to keep Jack, The man he secretly loved with all his heart SAFE. His refusal to live with Jack stemmed from his desire to protect Jack from Earl's fate. When he heard of Jack's death I think it was automatically assumed by Ennis that Jack had done something careless and the tire irons got him. In the "death scene Jack is out in the middle of nowhere surrouned by these goons. Why was was he there? in some field with these murderers in the first place? We'll never know but to Ennis this was the only possilbe scenario IMO. I do suspect Lureen though.Just my theory.

tpe · « **Reply #497 on:** Feb 07, 2007, 05:00 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Feb 07, 2007, 04:22 PM

I beleive that all Ennis's "sacrifices" were for one purpose,and that was to keep Jack, The man he secretly loved with all his heart SAFE. His refusal to live with Jack stemmed from his desire to protect Jack from Earl's fate. When he heard of Jack's death I think it was automatically assumed by Ennis that Jack had done something careless and the tire irons got him. In the "death scene Jack is out in the middle of nowhere surrouned by these goons. Why was was he there? in some field with these murderers in the first place? We'll never know but to Ennis this was the only possilbe scenario IMO. I do suspect Lureen though.Just my theory.

I have voiced the same thing in earlier posts. The irony is that Randall probably tried to do what Jack wanted, and ended up fulfilling Ennis's prophecy -- well, at least in Ennis's mind.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #498 on:** Mar 13, 2007, 03:22 PM »

I recently watched the scene with Randall and Jack outside on the bench and noticed some things. First off Jack and Randall sat close eough that their legs almost touched. There was plenty of room on the end of the bench but Jack chose to sit very close. This takes me back to the FNIT scene where there was also "extra "room in the bedroll but Jack chose to sleep close.Maybe this is a "mating call" exclusive to him. A sign subtle, but there in both cases. Also I noticed their hands. they are strategaclly placed . Check it out. And last when Randall starts his line of interest in Jack , jack does'nt look at Randall but stares straight ahead , This is telling in it gives Randall a sense that Jack is open to suggestion? Thinking aabout it and not cutting Randall's talking off with a n immediate refusal either. Checkout Randall's body languagee when LaShawn appears and Jack watchjng hjs face.I think Randall read lot into these nuances from Jack.Any thoughts

aintfoolin · « **Reply #499 on:** Mar 13, 2007, 03:30 PM »

sorry, there's something screwy with my keyboard right now.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #500 on:** Mar 13, 2007, 06:22 PM »

I got the impression that Randall was disappointed when he heard LaShawn coming out. Jack hadn't given him an answer to his suggestion. I have to wonder if Randall was thinking "Damn! Did they have to come out here now?"

manhattangirl · « **Reply #501 on:** Mar 13, 2007, 06:34 PM »

aintfoolin, apologies not necessary, had same problem.

But you're on target, not only on the bench, but at the table, the women with them seem an intrusion. The glances they gave to each other, (Jack's eyes, God I love them), was also telling, like trying to communicate without words. The look on Jack's face when Ranall proposes the idea of get away together, unlike the FINT, someone approaches him, someone is wanting him. He look a little startled, but very definitely open to it. This is someone he didn't have to tip toe around, it must have been a new experience for Jack.

tpe · « **Reply #502 on:** Mar 14, 2007, 07:21 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 13, 2007, 03:22 PM

I recently watched the scene with Randall and Jack outside on the bench and noticed some things. First off Jack and Randall sat close eough that their legs almost touched. There was plenty of room on the end of the bench but Jack chose to sit very close. This takes me back to the FNIT scene where there was also "extra "room in the bedroll but Jack chose to sleep close.Maybe this is a "mating call" exclusive to him. A sign subtle, but there in both cases. Also I noticed their hands. they are strategaclly placed . Check it out. And last when Randall starts his line of interest in Jack , jack does'nt look at Randall but stares straight ahead , This is telling in it gives Randall a sense that Jack is open to suggestion? Thinking aabout it and not cutting Randall's talking off with a n immediate refusal either. Checkout Randall's body languagee when LaShawn appears and Jack watchjng hjs face.I think Randall read lot into these nuances from Jack.Any thoughts

I watched the scene again to be sure.

Yes, I had noticed their legs almost touching. I had also interpreted this to be a mark of some interest, especially in the US where a need for one's own space, although not too extreme as in some other places, is nonetheless respected and expected between strangers or casual acquaintances (as in busses or trains, for example).

In a number of times in the scene, you see Randall directing his glance to Jack, and Jack doing the same. I don't think either of them do it at the same time. Do you notice a difference in their respective glances?

Lastly, I had assumed that Jack's blank stare was more about his thinking about Ennis at that moment, the same way you see him stare out blankly as he dances with Lureen the first time they met...

JT · « **Reply #503 on:** Mar 14, 2007, 03:14 PM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Mar 13, 2007, 06:22 PM

I got the impression that Randall was disappointed when he heard LaShawn coming out. Jack hadn't given him an answer to his suggestion. I have to wonder if Randall was thinking "Damn! Did they have to come out here now?"

I agree with you CSC. Randall seemed annoyed to hear Lashawn's voice before Jack could answer. For a second there, I thought I saw Jack nodded before he stare out blankly.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #504 on:** Mar 15, 2007, 04:21 AM »

CSC , I also agree with you about LaShawn's crappy timing! If only her and Lureen powdered their noses a little longer, Randall may have gotten an answer to his proposal right then.
And your right Tpe , the glances were never face to face. I just get the feeling that they were making small talk out of a nervous "underlying " knowledge that something had been established between them inside+ they did'nt really know each other that well yet.I also noticed the nod from Jack. Did Jack see this coming at some point that night and just waited for the unspoken understanding to reveal itself when they got outside? Sometimes I think this. And Randall's suggetions had to sound familiar to Jack. How ironic.: Drink a little whiskey?, fish some, get away?. Hmm.
I think Jack's blank stare surely had alot to do with Ennis. He had to be thinking and questioning and weighing things out. Would Ennis find out? etc. Trying to rationalize everything out in those few split seconds after Randall's proposal. Will it be Ennis's tired "can't fix it ,so stand it "? ( including the something he "hardly ever gets"!) or go with someone who is close in proximity , and ready, willing and able. and above all discreet. It was a temptation that was hard for Jack to refuse. I can't blame him...... &*&Oh no! I'm LaShawning now.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #505 on:** Mar 15, 2007, 05:02 AM »

How could Jack refuse this golden opportunity to be with someone who as you said "ready, willing, and able". That twice, three times a year of "high altitude F@#ks" wasn't cutting it for Jack. Knowing this, Ennis should have put those reins on Jack.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #506 on:** Mar 15, 2007, 06:51 AM »

You are so right Manhattan Girl! I think this stems from Jack finnally realizing that as long as Ennis had complete control over the pace and direction of the affair, all would remain the same. Ennis was cluless as to how much Jack needed him. As Jack said (" you have no idea"!) Also Randall had as much to lose as Jack, Maybe more,maybe less but one thing about it Their lovemaking may not have had the emotional impact for Jack as with Ennis, but at least I'm sure Randall was available more than once or twice a year! ( my oh my) He preferred it to be Ennis but comon, honestly, who could blame Jack?... really now.

tpe · « **Reply #507 on:** Mar 15, 2007, 06:59 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 15, 2007, 06:51 AM

You are so right Manhattan Girl! I think this stems from Jack finnally realizing that as long as Ennis had complete control over the pace and direction of the affair, all would remain the same. Ennis was cluless as to how much Jack needed him. As Jack said (" you have no idea"!) Also Randall had as much to lose as Jack, Maybe more,maybe less but one thing about it Their lovemaking may not have had the emotional impact for Jack as with Ennis, but at least I'm sure Randall was available more than once or twice a year! ( my oh my) He preferred it to be Ennis but comon, honestly, who could blame Jack?... really now.

I agree. With Ennis in control, things would not have moved much. And Randall certainly had the advantage of greater accessibility and openness to possibilities, even if jack did love Ennis.

Maybe Jack though he would learn to love Randall as much over time?

welshwitch · « **Reply #508 on:** Mar 16, 2007, 10:18 AM »

Randall's suggestions parallel what Jack and Ennis used as their cover-story -fishing and drinking, male buddy things. Maybe that suggests that in some ways Randall was similar to Ennis - certainly what he suggested must have taken Jack straight back to all those times in the mountains.

tpe · « **Reply #509 on:** Mar 16, 2007, 10:44 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Mar 16, 2007, 10:18 AM

Randall's suggestions parallel what Jack and Ennis used as their cover-story -fishing and drinking, male buddy things. Maybe that suggests that in some ways Randall was similar to Ennis - certainly what he suggested must have taken Jack straight back to all those times in the mountains.

I had wondered whether Randall was in some ways very similar to Ennis -- which was why Jack was inevitably drawn to him. But Randall didn't seem as tortured. He probably had an easier life than Ennis, no? In any case, perhaps what attracted Jack to Randall were precisely those qualities that Ennis didn't have.

Author Topic: Randall (Read 236547 times)

manhattangirl

manhattangirl