Topic: Randall

[tpe]

[welshwitch]

Their similar poses suggest a similarity between them - and there's the black/white thing going on.

[tpe]

Their similar poses suggest a similarity between them - and there's the black/white thing going on.

Yes.  There is an echo of Ennis in the color scheme.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

... I just get the feeling that they  were making small talk out of a nervous "underlying " knowledge  that something had been established between them inside+ they did'nt really  know each other that well yet.I also noticed the nod from Jack.

Very accurate assessment here.  I've been thru numerous similar situations.

[aintfoolin]

Yes, Yes thank you for the picture WW. Randall is obviously one of these shy quiet types. This is a similar personaliyt trait that he and Ennis shared. The strong silent types are the ones ya have to watch though because there is that mysterious aura that usually covers a sexuall animal just beneath that quiet surface. With the right person and set of circumstances Randall 's " beast was released " with Jack...another similarlity to Ennis.  once Ennis "got going"  there was" no rein on this one"  I suppose Jack just has this effect on them , to draw them out. also  agree Tpe that Jack saw Randall as a serious alternative to Ennis's reluctance.  He was someone whom Jack could work with. Probably would have met Jack half-way. That in time ,Jack could have grown to love him, but Ennis would never be far from Jack's thoughts. The bond created by the experience with Ennis would not be easy to erase from Jack's mind. Only if Randall kept Jack a long distance ( in miles and mindset) from Ennis maybe there could have been a chance for them. A major acheivement to pull off, but not totally impossible. Jack could done alot worse but eeeeeeekkkk  *chills*   ahem... ~)Ennis and Jack togerher is my ideal but....well you know.... sh*t happens.

[tpe]

Yes, Yes thank you for the picture WW. Randall is obviously one of these shy quiet types. This is a similar personaliyt trait that he and Ennis shared. The strong silent types are the ones ya have to watch though because there is that mysterious aura that usually covers a sexuall animal just beneath that quiet surface. With the right person and set of circumstances Randall 's " beast was released " with Jack...another similarlity to Ennis.  once Ennis "got going"  there was" no rein on this one"  I suppose Jack just has this effect on them , to draw them out. also  agree Tpe that Jack saw Randall as a serious alternative to Ennis's reluctance.  He was someone whom Jack could work with. Probably would have met Jack half-way. That in time ,Jack could have grown to love him, but Ennis would never be far from Jack's thoughts. The bond created by the experience with Ennis would not be easy to erase from Jack's mind. Only if Randall kept Jack a long distance ( in miles and mindset) from Ennis maybe there could have been a chance for them. A major acheivement to pull off, but not totally impossible. Jack could done alot worse but eeeeeeekkkk  *chills*   ahem... ~)Ennis and Jack togerher is my ideal but....well you know.... sh*t happens.

The way Jack looks in front of him in that pic...it has an abstracted quality to it.  It is a look that for some reason I associated with Jack thinking about Ennis.  It is as if he is in another place...  And yet you know that he also has Randall in his thoughts.  Is he the hunter or the hunted?

Sometimes then, I wonder whether Jack mixes Randall and Ennis in his mind.  It is probably part of a fantasy of having Ennis the way he wanted him. 

[aintfoolin]

Tpe. you hit the nail on the head!  I'm in agreement that no doubt.Ennis is present in Jack's mind. In fact it was probably the first thing that went through his mind after the propsal from Randall. Randall possessed all the qualities of what was  apparently Jack's " type" without the inner conflicts that Ennis had. He was the one taking the chance on Jack. Jack was releived of having to be the one taking rejection. There had to be a certain sense of freedom for Jack in this. For once he was getting to establish the rules, he was holding the cards. Randall allowed this by giving him a choice. Him or Ennis. Jack being emotionally vulnerable and Randall's soft ,approach made it somewhat easier to take him up on the offer, but Ennis was definitly in the mix yet physically unavailible at the time. Randall was.Also  Randall saw the body language between Jack and Lureen at the table which further clued him in to Jack's marital misgivings. This guy was not happy in his current state. With the eye contact for him and his back turned on his wife further lead Randall to beleive that Jack was open for some etra-curricular activities else where. By the time they got outside on the bench Randall's concentrating on tbe right words to let Jack know he was interested was obvious.My opinion.

[tpe]

I love the way you say it too: Randall's soft approach.  It was interesting to see Jack hesitate after Randall invited him.  And yes, for someone emotionally vulnerable like Jack, Randall's approach was like soothing balm.

It did seem to me that Randall was more deliberate, and bided his time.  His giving some leeway for Jack to make the choices shows how formidable a rival he could be.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly. Randall in a way had to feel like a breath of fresh air for Jack. Though he still loved and wanted Ennis, Jack was in a stifling situation with him. For once Randall put the ball in Jack's court. He suggested a "laid back" casual affair without major ties or commitments. For Jack, this had to be tempting as well as flattering for him. I always thought that sometimes it's not what you say , but the way you sat it. Randall  was apparently cautious as well as convincing. Jack needed that I think at the time.

[tpe]

Certainly. Randall in a way had to feel like a breath of fresh air for Jack. Though he still loved and wanted Ennis, Jack was in a stifling situation with him. For once Randall put the ball in Jack's court. He suggested a "laid back" casual affair without major ties or commitments. For Jack, this had to be tempting as well as flattering for him. I always thought that sometimes it's not what you say , but the way you sat it. Randall  was apparently cautious as well as convincing. Jack needed that I think at the time.

Compare and contrast the first time Ennis and Jack met with the first time Randall and Jack met.  The former looked so awkward, fearful, but still so spontaneous and charming.  The latter, is guarded, but smooth and sophisticated.  I think the difference can tell us something about the 2 relationships.  Ennis and Jack grappled with each other.  Randall and Jack danced a coded dance.  I think the older Jack and Randall knew what they exactly wanted, whereas the younger Ennis and Jack didn't fully understand.  Also, Randall had read Jack exactly the first time, and measured him enough to know when the cup is about to overflow, so to speak.

All this speaks of a deliberation and sureness in Randall's pursuit of Jack.  Perhaps this was what Jack found so attractive and intriguing.

[aintfoolin]

I found this whole Jack and Randall/Ennis very intriging. Probably why I  keep coming back to this character Randall and for such a small role in the film he made a major impact on me.  Being Jack's lover on the side. He was competition for Ennis for sure. At first I hated him for his role in the relationship, but now i look at him alot differently. I guess he has a way of growing on me the more I watch him. Yes the contrast between the two meetings were telling. I suppose age and experience of lessons learned contrbuted to the differrent approaches. With a certainaly more mature Jack he probably learned Randall a thing or two. Personally I am attracted to the older Jack for reasons that I will not reveal!! 

[manhattangirl]

Randall just didn't know what he is getting into when he approached Jack, (the poor guy).   Could he had dealt with Jack?  Jack would have given himself to Randall, but would he have stop with Ennis.  This would have been the second front,  the other battle.   Randall after being with Jack would have not let go of him, Jack just had that kind power over his lovers.   Would Randall waited patiently for Jack?   Would he understand the pull Ennis had on Jack?   Would Randall understand those once or twice a year trips to brokeback? 

Randall would have been on that short leash. 

[tpe]

I found this whole Jack and Randall/Ennis very intriging. Probably why I  keep coming back to this character Randall and for such a small role in the film he made a major impact on me.  Being Jack's lover on the side. He was competition for Ennis for sure. At first I hated him for his role in the relationship, but now i look at him alot differently. I guess he has a way of growing on me the more I watch him. Yes the contrast between the two meetings were telling. I suppose age and experience of lessons learned contrbuted to the differrent approaches. With a certainaly more mature Jack he probably learned Randall a thing or two. Personally I am attracted to the older Jack for reasons that I will not reveal!! 

Randall is certainly a minor character whose role in the fate of Jack and Ennis is disproportionately important.  I didn't really hate him, but I did consider him as a potential rival to Ennis's claim to Jack.

Was Jack's Randall's first serious lover?  Not so sure about this one.  Like Jack and Ennis, he was closeted.  But he appears bolder and more expereienced.  I am sure that he has had prior dealings with other me4n, but I wonder whether any of them were really serious...

[tpe]

Randall just didn't know what he is getting into when he approached Jack, (the poor guy).   Could he had dealt with Jack?  Jack would have given himself to Randall, but would he have stop with Ennis.  This would have been the second front,  the other battle.   Randall after being with Jack would have not let go of him, Jack just had that kind power over his lovers.   Would Randall waited patiently for Jack?   Would he understand the pull Ennis had on Jack?   Would Randall understand those once or twice a year trips to brokeback? 

Randall would have been on that short leash. 

I think Randall would have dealt with Jack reasonably.  After all, he did seem to get it when he seemd to have acquiesed to joing Jack in LF.  But even this is not completely known to be true.  WE only know Jack's plans.  At the very least, Randall seemed to have played up to the expectations.  Was he serious?  We can give him the benefir of the doubt...

AS to Randall having knowledge of Ennis, you bring up a curious question.  I am not sure if Randall was ever aware of Jack's long relationship with Ennis.  Jack seemed good about keeping aspects of his life neatly compartmentalized.  Nonetheless, I doubt that Jack could have remained silent forever.  His actions and his love for Ennis would probably give everything away in dure time...

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

AS to Randall having knowledge of Ennis, you bring up a curious question.  I am not sure if Randall was ever aware of Jack's long relationship with Ennis.  Jack seemed good about keeping aspects of his life neatly compartmentalized.  Nonetheless, I doubt that Jack could have remained silent forever.  His actions and his love for Ennis would probably give everything away in dure time...

I agree it is likely Randall didn't know about Ennis.  I do believe he would have eventually found out.  As good as Jack was with keeping his life compartmentalized, Randall, at some point, would have to sense that Jack was holding back a part of himself.

[zephK]

Hi all,   This may be stupidest quetion you've ever been asked, but I really don't get where Randall is anything other than a guy who slyly propositions Jack.  Jack doesn't even look at him outside during the invitation, and inside he can't seen to get away from the table fast enough - he even asks chatterbox La Shawn to dance!  Why do you think Jack, a married man who has the greatest love in the world for a BF goin on in the mountains, would take a chance on screwing around behind his wife's back, in her own small town?  If you've ever lived in a small town, you know how hard you have to work to keep your secrets, ya got any.
But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.

[welshwitch]

The fact that he's mentioned the ranch-foreman to his parents, as well as to Ennis in a coded way, suggests that Randall was more than just someone who'd propositioned Jack. He was talking about taking him up to his family home - maybe he was grandstanding and hadn't suggested this to Randall but was instead trying to impress his father, but nevertheless the idea was in his mind.

And Jack had waited so long and so fruitlessly for Ennis - somethere in "Gone with the Wind" it says, somewhat paradoxically, "Even the most deathless love can wear out". Maybe Jack had just had enough of being in Childress with Lureen in an empty marriage with a pointless life. Maybe he was recklessly uncaring about whether or not he might draw unwanted attention if he had a relationship with Randall; maybe he just didn't care any more.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Thanks for making those points welshwitch.  I was organizing my own reply as you completed yours.  As you can see zephK Randall was a little more prominent in Jack's life.  No one will argue about the difficulties of maintaining discretion in a small town. Just remember that Jack was separated from the love of his life by distance and commitments.  Randall was an opportunity for Jack to try filling a lonely void.  It doesn't surprise me that his connection to Randall likely grew beyond a mere proposition.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.

Either Randall, or somone else who met his description as far as wife leaving and cabin building was concerned, was about to move to Jack's parents ranch. There really is no way round this. It is one of the extra twists of the knife in the heart that goes with the (screen play) story-line. It could so easily have been Ennis - and he knew it.

Jack died trying to get his life the way he wanted it. Ennis could not fix it and had to stand it.

JFT

[tpe]

Hi all,   This may be stupidest quetion you've ever been asked, but I really don't get where Randall is anything other than a guy who slyly propositions Jack.  Jack doesn't even look at him outside during the invitation, and inside he can't seen to get away from the table fast enough - he even asks chatterbox La Shawn to dance!  Why do you think Jack, a married man who has the greatest love in the world for a BF goin on in the mountains, would take a chance on screwing around behind his wife's back, in her own small town?  If you've ever lived in a small town, you know how hard you have to work to keep your secrets, ya got any.
But I am serious, I seem to be the only one who doesn't choose this path for Jack, and really don't get it.

Hello zephK, and welcome.

Even small towns have their secrets.  And adultery happens everywhere. no? 

I agree that it is much more difficult to keep secrets in a small town -- but people have always been driven to do things by a greater need.  Perhaps Jack in the end really didn't care to keep things secret.  Perhaps their going on fishing trips and sharing a cabin was a perfect enough cover to keep suspicions at bay. 

I guess what I am saying is that it is not correct to think of small towns as transparent entities -- places where everyone knows what his/her neighbor is doing.  Some of the darkest crimes and darkest secrets are done under the shadow of these small towns.  The smallness of a town and its relative isolation may even help in keeping secrets.  Nobody would ever suspect...

You have to read Randall in the context of Jack attempting to move on just before his death.  Perhaps Randall is incidental to all this -- being the person at the right time and at the right moment when Jack decides to move on.  But that does not negate what Randall stood for: all the unexplored possibilities that lay open. 

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

Hello zephK, and welcome.

Even small towns have their secrets.  And adultery happens everywhere. no? 

Yes. Many people seem to think BBM starts in 1963 and never gets much later! The Randall episode happens in the late 70's early 80's. Times had changed. Parts of sexual revolution got to even the smallest places - small town girls wore mini-skirts and went on the pill and many gay men stood up for themselves or moved to the cities. At the least there was awarness of these issues and depate on TV and radio that could not be escaped. The social acceptence, or rather deep seated resistence was of course there in small towns as it still is. In places like that if you want to saty you need to carry a wepon at all times, be trained to use it and let it be known you will.

Jacks father was pissed of that he did not get the help Jack was always promising on the ranch. And his mother was a wise old bird.

If two men wanted to have sex and diguise it as cabin building and fishing trips as many do, it was nowhere nearly so difficult to carry of as it was in the early 60's. It was by and large legal at the very least.

[tpe]

Yes. Many people seem to think BBM starts in 1963 and never gets much later! The Randall episode happens in the late 70's early 80's. Times had changed. Parts of sexual revolution got to even the smallest places - small town girls wore mini-skirts and went on the pill and many gay men stood up for themselves or moved to the cities. At the least there was awarness of these issues and depate on TV and radio that could not be escaped. The social acceptence, or rather deep seated resistence was of course there in small towns as it still is. In places like that if you want to saty you need to carry a wepon at all times, be trained to use it and let it be known you will.

Jacks father was pissed of that he did not get the help Jack was always promising on the ranch. And his mother was a wise old bird.

If two men wanted to have sex and diguise it as cabin building and fishing trips as many do, it was nowhere nearly so difficult to carry of as it was in the early 60's. It was by and large legal at the very least.

It is interesting to think about how these small towns change in certain things and remian unchanged in others...  Even University towns, where I am sure Randall must have expereinced first hand some of the effects of the changes wrought in the late 60s and 70s.

True, old habits and prejudices die hard -- especially in small towns.  But change they do, even if the prejudices remain...

[aintfoolin]

Small towns also have the advantage of many isolated areas where both straight and gays used to meet. Jack and Ennis were able to act on their feelings freely and undisturbed due to the total isolation up on BBM. Except for Aquirre's *unexpected* visit they were able to love (sometimes even outside) without fear of being discovered. Randall, being a ranch foreman not only had access to a cabin in the woods, but I'm sure they were creative in finding other places to meet away from prying eyes. Sadly it was where Jack was killed so these areas have a disadvantge also if someone chose to do harm to someone without getting suspected. As I remember the 70's was the time of the disco era in the cities but small towns got in on the actions as I reflect by opening bigger *clubs* that accentuated the western culture.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

As I remember the 70's was the time of the disco era in the cities but small towns got in on the actions as I reflect by opening bigger *clubs* that accentuated the western culture.

Exactly. Yet none of this sort of thing is mentioned in BBM. I suppose Ennis and Jack at a gay disco with several hundred others would rather spoil things! Although Jack would more than likley have been into this sort of thing on the QT - it was a lot nearer than Mexico!

And of course the story nicely ends just at the beginning of the AIDS age.

[manhattangirl]

Exactly. Yet none of this sort of thing is mentioned in BBM. I suppose Ennis and Jack at a gay disco with several hundred others would rather spoil things! Although Jack would more than likley have been into this sort of thing on the QT - it was a lot nearer than Mexico!

And of course the story nicely ends just at the beginning of the AIDS age.

This is also the time of "Stonewall" in "69, I think Jack was more in state of mind to fight back.   His rebellion, his acting up, was the final confrontation, he had enough.   

[tpe]

But Randall could have been more open to the changing world, perhaps?  He did attend University, and he was apparently not a native of the samll town.  For LaShawn's statement, it did seem that they were new to small town life, and LaShawn and Neiman Marcus were old acquaintances, no?

I don't know if the big cities in Texas were as subject to the changes going on in the other cities during that time, but I would suspect that to a degree, it was.  Hence, Randall could have had considerably more experience than either Ennis or Jack, and in this regard, perhaps he had a distinct advantage over the two.

[welshwitch]

Dallas in the 80s? There must have been a gay scene there by then, surely. Randall looks different, more metropolitan than the others at the dance, who look like locals, and even LaShawn is more citified - she goes shopping ( always a good thing IMO) and considers Childress a backwater. I reckon Randall would have a much wider experience of the world than Ennis and considerably more than Jack.

In that way both Jack and Ennis seem typically American to me. I was always stunned by how people in the emptier areas of the south and west and in small towns had never travelled any distance - one waitress once said she'd never been more than 20 miles up the road in any direction from her home town ( a village to us) which I immediately recalled when Ennis made that comment about going round the coffee pot looking for the handle. Randall was quite different - in a way more late twentieth-century while Ennis certainly and Jack to a degree belong to an older version of America.

[tpe]

Dallas in the 80s? There must have been a gay scene there by then, surely. Randall looks different, more metropolitan than the others at the dance, who look like locals, and even LaShawn is more citified - she goes shopping ( always a good thing IMO) and considers Childress a backwater. I reckon Randall would have a much wider experience of the world than Ennis and considerably more than Jack.

In that way both Jack and Ennis seem typically American to me. I was always stunned by how people in the emptier areas of the south and west and in small towns had never travelled any distance - one waitress once said she'd never been more than 20 miles up the road in any direction from her home town ( a village to us) which I immediately recalled when Ennis made that comment about going round the coffee pot looking for the handle. Randall was quite different - in a way more late twentieth-century while Ennis certainly and Jack to a degree belong to an older version of America.

It's the sense of isolation and independence, perhaps (real or imagined).  With Randall, he probably has had more opportunities to see the wider world -- and not necessarily physical travel.  Schooling is a whole different kind of journey.

 

[manhattangirl]

Did Randall have what it took to keep Jack  in his bed, and not get into his truck and go to Ennis?   That's the bottomline.  And I think that's could be said no matter where you're from, who you are, how or where you live.   Love is the basic, most misunderstood, understandable emotion there is.  It drives us to despair, or to unbelievable happiness, it's fleeting, long lasting. 

We see it in Jack and Ennis, we see us, we bang our heads against the wall wondering what's in these guys heads, we understand to a degree their fears perceived or real, we jump and yell at the screen "hey go for it you idiot". 

Look, for me, I'm not college educated, nor well travelled,  I'm  just working from my life experience, but when I come home after work, and there is someone there who loves me and wants me that's it for me,  isn't that something we all are looking for?  Isn't that what Jack was trying to tell Ennis?   And Ennis is what and who Jack wanted.  Randall could have given Jack the world, but who's world, his? 

[aintfoolin]

I agree. This is the bottom line MG. What woould Randall have to do to keep Jack from Ennis. Jack hopefully will have made the hard choices BEFORE he really lets go. It's a serious choice to make to be taken seriously. Jack cannot be running in and out of Randall and Ennis's lives at will. I cannot see it happening. . There's also Lureen and a son to contend with. Jack is in some major troulble if he trys juggling all these people secretly. He would have to choose a life with one or the other. Coming home to Ennis is Jack's ideal but if Ennis is'nt willing to get serious about settling down with him, then Jack has to take matters into his own hands, take control of his life and make that hard decision. I doubt that as much as he loved Ennis , he would spend the rest of his life chasing a dream that will never come true. When he left home to rodeo in Texas, he made a way for himself to get out of LF.with all odds against him. This determined spirit within Jack I beleive still lives in him. He's not one to give up easily if he sees it's worth fighting for but we see Jack also has limits.Coming home to Randall may not be his first  best ideal but he could do alot worse. Love takes time, but with the proper nuturing it can grow. Maybe he potentially saw this in Randall.IMHO.