Author Topic: Love or Loneliness? (Read 25908 times)

aimi15 · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 12:19 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 12, 2006, 08:02 AM

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 11, 2006, 06:46 PM
That's the beauty of this love story. Regardless, of how you interpret it...it just brings you outside yourself. No wonder it changed my life.

I have thought many a time of the connection between love, joy, and loneliness. In the context of BBM, the story allows us to go outside ourselves if only to delve deeper within our own hearts.

That is the beauty of the story. Even though my life bears very little similarity to BBM per se, the themes that run through it, of loneliness, joy and lost love to some degree i can relate to, and by stepping back and trying to comprehend the story Annie has created gives me some insight into myself. It's remarkable, and i feel so lucky having the chance to have the BBM experience.

stacp · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:38 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 11, 2006, 04:01 PM

I felt the "why don't ya just let me be" was Ennis kind of calling Jack's bluff a little bit here taking into account the confession Jack had just made about Mexico. He was real mad .He was also sick of dealing with the whole damn thing .But also scared of loosing Jack forever. It all came down on him at once. I can't say that Ennis would purposely sabotage the relationship.

I agree, ain'tfoolin about Ennis calling Jack's bluff. I just think a confrontation between these two about EVERYTHING that went on during these 20 years was inevitable. Just like Alma's confrontation with Ennis, sometimes you just have to air out your dirty laundry before you can make a change, whatever that change is (if at all). By nature, people say things during argument that they don't mean or wouldn't say otherwise. I think this is what Ennis' "why don't ya let me be" line is all about. Sure, it would be easier for Jack to let him be, but does Ennis really want this? No way. I think Ennis is trying to let Jack know here that, "hey, you're not the only one in pain. My heart is breaking, too."

aintfoolin · « **Reply #32 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:55 PM »

And Enins did send another postcard to Jack post argument proving this point that he did'nt mean it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #33 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 03:24 PM »

You're right. In emotional extremis, one says things one may have thought before but never voiced because they're unsayable. Afterwards it's too late to recall them even if one wants to. Once Jack is dead, I can;t imagine how Ennis will cope with hearing his own last words to him playing over in his head when he's alone and there's nothing he can do to change things.

tpe · « **Reply #34 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 04:41 PM »

I contain my cries, take back the words that escape me,
and force myself to swallow the tears I’ve shed.

welshwitch · « **Reply #35 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 05:39 AM »

O call back yesterday, bid time return.

tpe · « **Reply #36 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 06:47 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 05:39 AM

O call back yesterday, bid time return.

The worst is death, and death will have his day.

smilesalot · « **Reply #37 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 08:05 AM »

Uhh...you guys are killing me here!! Especially the image of Ennis, his words echoing back to him, with no way to "un-say" them, to deliver himself from the guilt. Regardless of his obvious grief, he's going to be all right, isn't he? I know he's not a very optimistic person, but he's going to carefully build on the love he experienced with Jack and find comfort and strength in that, right? I need some assurance here because the thought of my Ennis alone and unloved on the grieving plain just tears me apart.

tpe · « **Reply #38 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 08:47 AM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 13, 2006, 08:05 AM

Uhh...you guys are killing me here!! Especially the image of Ennis, his words echoing back to him, with no way to "un-say" them, to deliver himself from the guilt. Regardless of his obvious grief, he's going to be all right, isn't he? I know he's not a very optimistic person, but he's going to carefully build on the love he experienced with Jack and find comfort and strength in that, right? I need some assurance here because the thought of my Ennis alone and unloved on the grieving plain just tears me apart.

smilesalot , I know you are right: in spite of the overwhelming loneliness, having loved deeply is a comfort that will last more than one lifetime.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #39 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 09:14 AM »

Yes, but it's a heck of a thing to not realize what you had until it's gone and live the rest of your life without it. Thank goodness for Junior and the comfort from the knowledge gained of just how much Jack loved him from finding the shirts to sustain him till they can be together again.

Sorry, I do believe in the happy ending - I just don't think he'll find it fully in this life...

tpe · « **Reply #40 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 09:40 AM »

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;
And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.

(Yeats)

smilesalot · « **Reply #41 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 10:07 AM »

Well, heck, now I'm crying like Jack did after Ennis pushes him off after the divorce. DAMN!! Which way to Mexico?............Not for the sex, just for the tequila......... :`)

welshwitch · « **Reply #42 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 10:13 AM »

Maybe being lonely isn't the worst thing that can happen to you - Ennis is better able to cope with it than most, and he has " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" in the shirts and his memories of the times on the mountain.

tpe · « **Reply #43 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 10:20 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 10:13 AM

Maybe being lonely isn't the worst thing that can happen to you - Ennis is better able to cope with it than most, and he has " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" in the shirts and his memories of the times on the mountain.

To hold against the heart during the long cold -- long after the heart he holds is dead.

christie wood · « **Reply #44 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 03:39 PM »

What an amazing thread you've started Aimi!

I think this is a fascinating subject, but so so sad, and I've just read everyone's posts and feel like I want to cry. :\'( :\'( Don't really have anything particularly new to add, as everyone has expressed such interesting opinions on this subject, but I do think that Ennis was lonely from an early age, felt abandoned, was used to being alone, wasnt on the look out to make friends, let alone anything more intimate, with Jack. But Jack brought Ennis out of himself, and they found a companion where none was expected, as in the words of the great Annie Proulx. I think the initial friendship they developed was borne out of their shared experiences of life before Brokeback, but I believe wholeheartedly that out of that came love, for both of them. It was harder for Ennis to articulate his feelings and to make sense of the love he had for Jack, but it was love. 100%. IMHO.

Raisa · « **Reply #45 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 01:19 AM »

Thank you for this important thread! Both Ennis and Jack were loners, but a little bit different ways. For Ennis everything was much more difficult than for Jack, as we have seen. Views you have brought to daylight in this discussion are so true and wise and moving and beautiful. This touches something deep in my heart (and everyone´s) and brings up similarities. I don´t mean exact similarities, but the basic feelings of love, loneliness, joy, fear, disappoinment etc., which live inside the human heart.
Poor Ennis, I love him more and more each day. :\'( :\'( :\'(

aimi15 · « **Reply #46 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 09:18 AM »

Thank you all for your kind words. Carmilla, i agree with you entirely, Ennis breaks my heart. As much as i think in some ways he contributed to his own misery, in that he couldn't give Jack and himself a chance, i believe being Ennis he couldn't do any other. His nature IMO led him to push those he loved away, so whilst he was lonely, it was a loneliness of his own making, therefore he was in control. Doesn't make it any less tragic though.

I've bawled my head off for Jack, his demise had an immediate impact on me, yet it is what happens to Ennis alone in his trailer that has haunted me more. At least there is some hope for him at the end in the form of Alma Jnr, i believe she was the only other person bar Jack that could have given him any hope at the end. :\'(

smilesalot · « **Reply #47 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 03:21 PM »

I've bawled my head off for Jack, his demise had an immediate impact on me, yet it is what happens to Ennis alone in his trailer that has haunted me more. At least there is some hope for him at the end in the form of Alma Jnr, i believe she was the only other person bar Jack that could have given him any hope at the end. :\'(

Quote

I totally agree wth this Aimi. I know it just seems we keep putting the screws on poor Ennis, but it broke my heart the other day when he's confronted with the Stud Duck Mr. Twist and you can see in his eyes he's thinking -- "It was MY decision to live a life apart from Jack and now I can't even be a part of his death." The see such deep regret in him in that moment, especially since he had found the shirts and he KNEW how much Jack loved him. When I see him leaving the Twists, clutching that paper bag I can't help but feel, "Well, here it is. The one thing he can't fix and he won't be able to stand." Yet, two years later, we see Ennis' long-term self-preservation methods have kicked in and he's still standing and even willing to move forward for the sake of his daughter.

I also love Alma Jr. so much in the end. All the hurt and disappointment from her Dad and she never gave up on him. She's still hoping he'll let her in to his life. And finally, he does! Such a moment of redemption between them.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #48 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 03:37 PM »

Beautifully put, smilesalot!

Toadily · « **Reply #49 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:44 PM »

I also think when you truly connect with people that is when you feel lonely, that is when they are gone.
If you are a free agent you tend to feel less lonely I believe. So yes, love and lonliness have a connection.

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #50 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 11:14 PM »

this is hard cause i dont wanna dis ennis but i think that ennis was lonly cause he didnt want anyone to close to him so he wouldnt hurt them like he did to alma

welshwitch · « **Reply #51 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 06:57 AM »

Loneliness is a way of avoiding risk, and Ennis isn't a risk-taker. It's also a way of avoiding pain; when he lets Jack into his life he ends up unhappy most of the time, and in terrible pain when Jack dies. so the easiest thing is to keep everyone out of his life than at least he won't be hurt again. Letting Alma Jr in isn't risking his heart in the same way.

smilesalot · « **Reply #52 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 07:32 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 15, 2006, 06:57 AM

Loneliness is a way of avoiding risk, and Ennis isn't a risk-taker. It's also a way of avoiding pain; when he lets Jack into his life he ends up unhappy most of the time, and in terrible pain when Jack dies. so the easiest thing is to keep everyone out of his life than at least he won't be hurt again. Letting Alma Jr in isn't risking his heart in the same way.

I agree with this for the most part. Although he doesn't risk his heart with Alma Jr. -- I think for once he is willing to put his defenses aside for the sake of someone else. I mean, now that he's opened up a bit to her she's going to have higher expectations of him and is he going to keep disappointing her out of his need to be alone? Somehow I don't think so.

Great point, as well, bluesky. Ennis is lonely because he's afraid of being hurt and of hurting other people. He knows his need to protect himself hurts others. He's seen it in Alma, Jack, Cassie and Alma Jr. He sees the disappointment in their eyes. That's why it's so sweet when he agrees to Junior's wedding in a CHURCH, no less. The look in Jr.'s eyes when he agrees, gives me tingles every time.

welshwitch · « **Reply #53 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 08:37 AM »

True; this time he's doing something against the grain for the sake of someone else - remember his reaction when Alma suggested the church social and the " as long as I don't have to sing" which was made to Alma Jr when she was a child? Ennis's Methodist mother doesn't appear to have made a big impact on him.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #54 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 10:20 AM »

I thought his comment about "that fire and brimstone crowd" was very telling. He was so conflicted about his sexuality and so worried that other people would know, it's not surprising he didn't want to be subjected to the kind of preaching that would only remind him of his 'sin'. Sorry, OT (but I'm sure welshwitch could find a way to get us back on track

).

welshwitch · « **Reply #55 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 01:01 PM »

I'll do my best.

I think essentially Ennis has never been part of a community and relates to people, if at all, only on a one-to-one basis, which is why what happened on Brokeback probably wouldn'y have happened elsewhere. Ennis never has a life with Jack, in the sense of functioning in a social context - their encounters are generallyy with each other alone. When others are there on the margins, Alma in the reunion and the girls after the divorce, Ennis is uneasy and can't wait to get rid of them. He's the classic Western loner and will go on with his life in that way when Jack is gone. Put Ennis with other people - eg in the July 4th scene, the super market, Thnksgiving, etc. and he's ill at ease or violent. So loneliness is a natural state for him.

christie wood · « **Reply #56 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 03:05 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 14, 2006, 03:21 PM

I totally agree wth this Aimi. I know it just seems we keep putting the screws on poor Ennis, but it broke my heart the other day when he's confronted with the Stud Duck Mr. Twist and you can see in his eyes he's thinking -- "It was MY decision to live a life apart from Jack and now I can't even be a part of his death." The see such deep regret in him in that moment, especially since he had found the shirts and he KNEW how much Jack loved him. When I see him leaving the Twists, clutching that paper bag I can't help but feel, "Well, here it is. The one thing he can't fix and he won't be able to stand." Yet, two years later, we see Ennis' long-term self-preservation methods have kicked in and he's still standing and even willing to move forward for the sake of his daughter.

I also love Alma Jr. so much in the end. All the hurt and disappointment from her Dad and she never gave up on him. She's still hoping he'll let her in to his life. And finally, he does! Such a moment of redemption between them.

What a wonderful but heartbreaking post! I got all emotional reading it, thinking about Ennis in Jack's childhood home. :\'( :\'( :\'(

FlwrChild · « **Reply #57 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 03:06 PM »

Whack! She hits it right out of the park! I'll have to see if jerasjr has a graphic of someone bowing down so that I can properly honor your superior insight.

Very well said welshwitch!

tpe · « **Reply #58 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 08:05 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 15, 2006, 01:01 PM

I'll do my best.

I think essentially Ennis has never been part of a community and relates to people, if at all, only on a one-to-one basis, which is why what happened on Brokeback probably wouldn'y have happened elsewhere. Ennis never has a life with Jack, in the sense of functioning in a social context - their encounters are generallyy with each other alone. When others are there on the margins, Alma in the reunion and the girls after the divorce, Ennis is uneasy and can't wait to get rid of them. He's the classic Western loner and will go on with his life in that way when Jack is gone. Put Ennis with other people - eg in the July 4th scene, the super market, Thnksgiving, etc. and he's ill at ease or violent. So loneliness is a natural state for him.

I do agree that Ennis never really did fit in with the community. Was it because of his love for Jack. That was a part of it, I believe. But I think the core of his inability is rooted on the same thing that made him refuse to live a life with Jack: fear of his own self.

welshwitch · « **Reply #59 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 09:14 AM »

His father's showing him what " they" cold do to Earl would have been enough to make him afraid of theopinions andpower of others - it's a version of theold Western posse or vigilante idea to me. His parents died, "deserted " him in psychobabble, his sister and brother only tolerated him till they could get rid of him - it's not surprising that he was afraid of involvement with others.

Author Topic: Love or Loneliness? (Read 25908 times)

aimi15

aimi15