Topic: 40 winks? jack nasty?

[erica loves jack]

i just bought the dvd the other day and i've watched it numerous times in the past 2 days, trying to figure out this and that and of course to replay those gut wrenching love scenes and that kiss. wow. anyway, i have some questions i haven’t yet figured out...

1. what does '40 winks' mean? it’s the title of the scene so it must be important.

2. what's up with the 'jack nasty' thing? did alma overhear ennis calling him that or what??

3. jack's parents knew he was gay, right? i'm guessing jack eventually told them... when he told them about him and ennis having their own place some day and everything.

4. this might be obvios, but... jack was killed because he was gay, right?? like, he decided not to hide it anymore and people found out and those men really did beat him to death, right??? when lureen tells ennis that the car tire or whatever blew up and he drowned in his blood, she was lying, right? i don’t understand her.

5. jack told lureen he was gay and that’s why they divorced, right? like, jack told her about ennis and brokeback. i was also wondering why, when ennis calls her, she gets teary-eyed and at the end she says 'they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out..... about the ashes i mean.' so does that mean something deeper?? i'm thinkin it does but idk. like, jack wanted ennis to meet his parents?

6. lastly, at the end when ennis says 'jack, i swear...' what does that mean exactly?? i mean, i know there's probably no right answer but i just wanna know if you guys are on the same page as me...... i think he's saying 'jack i swear.... i love you. i'm sorry for not being there for you. for not loving you like i should have. for not living a happy life with you like i could have.' and on and on. idk.


and i wanted to know what you guys thought about jack being with other men after ennis. ennis was obviouly very upset with him. personally, i think jack did what he needed to do for himself. he loved ennis but in a way, ennis didn’t love him back... so he had to find love somewhere else. ennis shouldn’t have been telling him he was gunna kill him if he found out about all the stuff jack did with other men. what do you expect the guy to do??? you push him away, you don’t except the fact that you're gay, or that you atleast have a gay relationship, and that, in a way, is not excepting him into your life and in your whole heart like he has done for you.


ok, sorry. i'm done. lol.

please let me know what you think!

[gimmejack]

I definetely can't properly answer all your questions, but

1.  I think 40 winks is a "cowboy" type saying meaning catch some zzz's (If i'm wrong, I shall be corrected shortly, i'm sure!)

2. Alma just called him that because in her head, Jack is just "NASTY"!  Alma is just expressing her pent up anger. (I thought it was cute how she said it) Ennis cedrtainly never called him that, nor did anyone else in the movie.

3. Ongoing debate as to whether or not Jacks parents knew. I personally believe they knew based on Mr. Twist's rantings and demeanor.  Obviously Mom knew and she immediately felt connected to Ennis because of this.

4. Lureen told the story of Jack's death as if it were reheae**d and recited multiple times.  Still debateable, but I always thought Lureen knew about Jacks sexuality based on her statements throughout, including the part where she asks Jack why "husbands don't never want to dance w/ their wives, why do you think that is Jack"...IMO, she knew.  Unknown if she knew or had blood on her hands regarding his murder.  I think the murder scene is Ennis mind picturing how he died, as Lureen recited the story...I could be wrong. 

5.  Lureen knew what Jack's wishes were.  Ennis confirmed it on the phone when he described their summer in 63, herdin sheep up on Brokeback.  You can almost hear it in her voice when she says "he always said that was his favorite place".  2+2 started to add up.  Sure enough, Lureen found out about Randall, their ranch neighboor and jack's knew lover...It seems that the whole town must have found out as well...thus his murder.

6. You summed up #6 pretty well and IMO accurate.  I always considered the "Jack, I swear" line a continum of the closet scene where he says "I love you" in the closet while holding the shirts.  "I love you......next scene....Jack, I swear"  It just blends in my mind, all one sentence.  Lots of opinions on this subject though.



Oh and I see you interpret the movie through Jacks eyes...as I do 95% of the time, but when you look at the big picture, in the time and place that they lived and the way Ennis was raised...you can't much blame him for not living up to Jacks expectations. After all, look at what Jacks fate was.  I have said this before.  Ennis gave all that he was capable of giving Jack and then some.  Ennis, in his heart felt that his uncontrollable, unconditional love for Jack ruined his life.  He did not see it any other way until much later when he learns the hardest lesson of his life and finds the shirts in the closet.  It is at this point that he is able to accept the love he has in his heart for Jack...he SWEARS!

[LuvJackNasty]

Hi Erica and welcome.

Here are some links to threads that may answer some of your questions:
Did Jack’s mom know?

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2458.msg15961#msg15961

Ennis & Jack’s Mom
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4183.msg117514#msg117514

Jack I swear
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4966.msg1000#msg1000

Did Lureen know
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=952.msg8842#msg8842
Lureen
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2280.msg37576#msg37576

Did Lureen have Jack killed
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3468.0


There are lots of threads here that have dealt with a lot of questions you have. 

I believe that Jack's parents knew he was gay. I think Lureen had her suspicions about Jack and they were confirmed with Ennis' phone call to her- They weren't divorced, though. 40 winks is a cat nap or a short sleep.

[browneyes]

1) I don't have a clue. Something to do with sleeping obviously. I think it's the title of the scene because instead of sleeping all night he [Ennis] has sex with Jack.

2) If u watched the movie Alma saw them kissing passionately, when they were reunited. And then she put the note on the fishing line. Therefore, she knew about the relationship. Ennis never called Jack that. She said that because the relationship was nasty and so was Jack (in her opinion). If she said "Ennis you're nasty" he would've killer her.

3) I think his parents suspected it. Especially, if he use to say all I'm gonna bring Ennis Del Mar up here one of these days. His parents would've been like, why is Jack obsessing over this Ennis. And I think thats why Jack's dad told Ennis about the "other fella" because he knew Ennis and Jack had something special and he said that to Ennis just to hurt him. And he knows that Ennis can't even confront Jack about it.

4) No one knows for wure was it an accident or a murder. In the book it kinda implies it was an accident. The scene that shows Jack getting beaten by 3 men is what Ennis thought what happened. It doesn't necessarily mean it's what happened. It could've been an accident.

5) Again, we don't know for sure if they really got divorced. It's possible that Jack died because of being gay and that is how Lureen found out he was gay, or maybe after Jack's death Randall told Lureen they were having sex. Or maybe Jack was caught with Randall. We shall never know for sure. And Lureen probably knew how important Ennis was to Jack on the phone, when she finds out that he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback because they were up there herdin sheep together.

6)You can interpret that your own way. I personally think it means "Jack, I swear I'll always love you and if I had another chance we would;ve had that life together.


And personally I hate the fact of Jack being with that prick Randall. Sometimes it amkes me doubt Jack's love for Ennis. Even though I'm sure Jack loved Ennis. Sure Ennis was stubborn, but at least he didn't have sex with other men. I mean what did Randall think of this? Did he know about Jack's love for Ennis? Did he even care? Because men can have sex for people for years without any emotional attachment (ask Colin Farrell  )
But the movie makes it clear that Jack loved Ennis and was only happy with Ennis. I think Jack did do what he needed to get some relief. Remember when Lureen says "Jack dranked a lot"? Why? Because he missed Ennis and was miserable.

[erica loves jack]

thanks for your help and ideas!

[welshwitch]

OED gives 40 winks as a short sleep or brief nap. It's generally in the day, when you wouldn't normally be sleeping but have just dropped off.

Jack Nasty to me suggests that ever since the kiss and after all the "fishing trips" Alma knows what the relationship is but either hasn't the words to use or can't bring herself to say them " nasty" indicates her disapproval but is non-specific.

I think his mother guessed; his father seems to have disliked him for years, whether because he felt Jack wasn't the son he wanted or because he suspected that he was involved with a man/men, I do't think you can tell/

The manner of his death is deliberately eft ambiuous, both in the ss and and the movie - the sequence we see is Ennis's imaginings.

Jack and Lureen didn't divorce; from the way she speaks on the phone to Ennis they were still married at the time of Jack's death. I can't convince myself she had anything to do with his death, though she could have known the truth of how it happened. 

[tpe]

To add to LJN's list of related threads, the one dealing with Mr. John Twist also contains discussions on whether or not Jack was "out" to his parents.

Thanks all.

[tpe]

To add to LJN's list of related threads, the one dealing with Mr. John Twist also contains discussions on whether or not Jack was "out" to his parents.

Thanks all.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4ecb233eb3042fff1314aea5f3b7c74c&topic=2997.0