Topic: Significane of Ennis entering the Tent *Spoiler*

[vedrana]

Listening with the same care-and high volume-than the "I love you" of the shirts scene,one can heard Ennis saying "I'm sorry"... ^^) .You're right,Ennis is not the apologising kind,but even so,in this very moment,the same than he felt he had to sureender somehow to Jack in a physical sense,he felt also that he had to apologise before him in an emotional sense.He didn't need to say anything and the mere action of entering the tent speaks for themselves,you're right again...
But there were some "little behaviour conduct" that IMO had to be "forgiven" with words,not only with this fact;Ennis maybe wasn't rude in FNIT,but well,let's say that he wasn't too delicate either ¡  .But I guess his way of "exploding" before some sexual tension situation-very logical,on the other hand...-,hadn't been exactly the same that Jack would have wished-more foreplay,let's say again,for what Ennis wasn't prepared still...-.Nor his behaviour the morning after and when Jack was going up to the mountain to talk,one more time not exactly the same than this last hoped.I think,in sum,that-even if the simple fact of entering the tent was enough-Ennis apologise makes sense in this concrete moment.JMHO.

I said that I won't oppose, and I won't! 

[tpe]

Listening with the same care-and high volume-than the "I love you" of the shirts scene,one can heard Ennis saying "I'm sorry"... ^^) .You're right,Ennis is not the apologising kind,but even so,in this very moment,the same than he felt he had to sureender somehow to Jack in a physical sense,he felt also that he had to apologise before him in an emotional sense.He didn't need to say anything and the mere action of entering the tent speaks for themselves,you're right again...
But there were some "little behaviour conduct" that IMO had to be "forgiven" with words,not only with this fact;Ennis maybe wasn't rude in FNIT,but well,let's say that he wasn't too delicate either ¡  .But I guess his way of "exploding" before some sexual tension situation-very logical,on the other hand...-,hadn't been exactly the same that Jack would have wished-more foreplay,let's say again,for what Ennis wasn't prepared still...-.Nor his behaviour the morning after and when Jack was going up to the mountain to talk,one more time not exactly the same than this last hoped.I think,in sum,that-even if the simple fact of entering the tent was enough-Ennis apologise makes sense in this concrete moment.JMHO.

I think Ennis was above all clumsy and awkward in FNIT -- even though he needed no instruction manual.  We see a hint of that same clumsiness/awkwardness when he enters the tent, correct?  It is part of his charm...

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis was above all clumsy and awkward in FNIT -- even though he needed no instruction manual.  We see a hint of that same clumsiness/awkwardness when he enters the tent, correct?  It is part of his charm...

Yes,that's right.Maybe "rude" wasn't the right word,anyway...But his behaviour during FNIT wasn't completely what Jack hoped; I'm speaking about the way,nor the fact itself.

[vedrana]

Yes,that's right.Maybe "rude" wasn't the right word,anyway...But his behaviour during FNIT wasn't completely what Jack hoped; I'm speaking about the way,nor the fact itself.

Yap, maybe Jack didn't want Ennis to be so rough, but he took what he could have. And he prepared for the second step, a day later. 

[myprivatejack]

Yap, maybe Jack didn't want Ennis to be so rough, but he took what he could have. And he prepared for the second step, a day later. 

Of course,he was... But I guess he looked for and wished more foreplay,more kissing,something what Ennis wasn't prepared then for...

[vedrana]

Of course,he was... But I guess he looked for and wished more foreplay,more kissing,something what Ennis wasn't prepared then for...

I don't think that he expected anything like that in FNIT. He wasn't even sure if he's going to get a punch in the middle of his beautiful face! 

It was like a lottery! Try something and see what you can get. And the thing he got was more than enough for the first time, I think! 

[tpe]

Yes,that's right.Maybe "rude" wasn't the right word,anyway...But his behaviour during FNIT wasn't completely what Jack hoped; I'm speaking about the way,nor the fact itself.

I don't think that he expected anything like that in FNIT. He wasn't even sure if he's going to get a punch in the middle of his beautiful face! 

It was like a lottery! Try something and see what you can get. And the thing he got was more than enough for the first time, I think! 

I suspect that in FNIT, Jack was a bit taken by surprise at being flipped.  Personally, I interpreted his unbuckling as a sign of an initial intention to play a more active role.  Just my opinion, of course...

But in the SNIT, when Ennis enters the tent, it is the opposite -- Jack pretty much knew that Ennis would give in, and so he was more confident and better prepared for what was to follow.  His more active role in SNIT is worthy of note...

[myprivatejack]

I suspect that in FNIT, Jack was a bit taken by surprise at being flipped.  Personally, I interpreted his unbuckling as a sign of an initial intention to play a more active role.  Just my opinion, of course...
But in the SNIT, when Ennis enters the tent, it is the opposite -- Jack pretty much knew that Ennis would give in, and so he was more confident and better prepared for what was to follow.  His more active role in SNIT is worthy of note...

Yes,me too...But I tend to interpret his unbuckling as a sign of "playing" a little more before; I see this the more active role as a way of behaving himself more in SNIT line,not in a sexual act itself necessarily.

[vedrana]

I suspect that in FNIT, Jack was a bit taken by surprise at being flipped.  Personally, I interpreted his unbuckling as a sign of an initial intention to play a more active role.  Just my opinion, of course...

But in the SNIT, when Ennis enters the tent, it is the opposite -- Jack pretty much knew that Ennis would give in, and so he was more confident and better prepared for what was to follow.  His more active role in SNIT is worthy of note...

Yes,me too...But I tend to interpret his unbuckling as a sign of "playing" a little more before; I see this the more active role as a way of behaving himself more in SNIT line,not in a sexual act itself necessarily.

Jack had the opportunity to get up and refuse Ennis in FNIT. But he didn't. In fact he was waiting impatiently for Ennis...
I doubt that he ever hoped for Ennis to play a passive role. In fact, as I see it there were no defined expectations in FNIT except of sexual enjoyment, one way or the other. Jack had initiated things and waited for the answer, ready to take any answer from Ennis. I don't think that he would expect Ennis being so closed and stiffed, could pay a passive role there.

SNIT is a different story and once MPJ said that she could see Ennis in passive role there, as entering the tent he already surrendered. Well, I have to admit that maybe I could consider this possibility. Maybe... 

Ennis was too sexy when entering the tent, for the record! 

 

[tpe]

Yes,me too...But I tend to interpret his unbuckling as a sign of "playing" a little more before; I see this the more active role as a way of behaving himself more in SNIT line,not in a sexual act itself necessarily.

Understood, although I was admittedly also thinking about the sexual act itself...   And in both FNIT and SNIT, in fact...

[tpe]

Jack had the opportunity to get up and refuse Ennis in FNIT. But he didn't. In fact he was waiting impatiently for Ennis...
I doubt that he ever hoped for Ennis to play a passive role. In fact, as I see it there were no defined expectations in FNIT except of sexual enjoyment, one way or the other. Jack had initiated things and waited for the answer, ready to take any answer from Ennis. I don't think that he would expect Ennis being so closed and stiffed, could pay a passive role there.

SNIT is a different story and once MPJ said that she could see Ennis in passive role there, as entering the tent he already surrendered. Well, I have to admit that maybe I could consider this possibility. Maybe... 

Ennis was too sexy when entering the tent, for the record! 

 

Well, we shouldn't forget that Jack was more experienced than Ennis (who was a virgin) and very often, the more experienced one usually takes a more active role (not absolute, though.)  The point is that there is more probable cause to expect Jack to take the active role in FNIT, had he not been completely surprised by Ennis taking matters into his own hands -- figurateively and literally.

[vedrana]

Well, we shouldn't forget that Jack was more experienced than Ennis (who was a virgin) and very often, the more experienced one usually takes a more active role (not absolute, though.)  The point is that there is more probable cause to expect Jack to take the active role in FNIT, had he not been completely surprised by Ennis taking matters into his own hands -- figurateively and literally.

Well, I know that you are more experienced in this matter... as a matter of fact I hadn't got a clue about this kind of physical relationship, but I can tell only what I feel. And I feel that Ennis would never play a passive role in FNIT. Who knows, maybe he also wanted the foreplay or tenderness, but he was not able to face Jack, and to face his own desire. So he flipped his desire on the other side and made it easier to get what he wanted.

On the other hand - surrender to be a passive role would mean that he was a queer, and "he wasn't a queer"! I believe that a passive role is more about "being a queer" than an active role, and I mean not only in his mind but generally! This is my opinion, which is not necessarily correct...

[tpe]

Well, I know that you are more experienced in this matter... as a matter of fact I hadn't got a clue about this kind of physical relationship, but I can tell only what I feel. And I feel that Ennis would never play a passive role in FNIT. Who knows, maybe he also wanted the foreplay or tenderness, but he was not able to face Jack, and to face his own desire. So he flipped his desire on the other side and made it easier to get what he wanted.

On the other hand - surrender to be a passive role would mean that he was a queer, and "he wasn't a queer"! I believe that a passive role is more about "being a queer" than an active role, and I mean not only in his mind but generally! This is my opinion, which is not necessarily correct...

I thought that his "insisting" on the active role was more about a sense of unfamiliarity with playing the pasive part.  In a way, it was probably "easier" for him to think in terms of an active partner.  Any gratification one gets from the passive role is usually less direct.  The active role is a more literal "translation"  of "getting off" and the standard male role as penetrator in heterosexual sex.

[myprivatejack]

I thought that his "insisting" on the active role was more about a sense of unfamiliarity with playing the pasive part.  In a way, it was probably "easier" for him to think in terms of an active partner.  Any gratification one gets from the passive role is usually less direct.  The active role is a more literal "translation"  of "getting off" and the standard male role as penetrator in heterosexual sex.

I suppose it was easier because the grasp between the man-a masculine man-and a "queer" was greater and deeper if he took the active role and,so,his self-acceptation and the acceptation itself of what he felt was greater too in this case.

[tpe]

I suppose it was easier because the grasp between the man-a masculine man-and a "queer" was greater and deeper if he took the active role and,so,his self-acceptation and the acceptation itself of what he felt was greater too in this case.

Yes.  The active role was perhaps less "problematic" in the case of Ennis.  Mentally, he probably used it as a form of justification -- that he was not queer.

[myprivatejack]

Yes.  The active role was perhaps less "problematic" in the case of Ennis.  Mentally, he probably used it as a form of justification -- that he was not queer.

That's it¡ For him,being the passive role-in a physical way,because he was so more than once in an emotional or psychical way...-was a further step to the "queer" condition.Even,it could make him closer to a feminine condition; as a matter of fact,a man can be active in the same way both with a man or a woman.

[vedrana]

That was my point exactly when I said that being a passive is more about being queer, which Ennis denied ti himself. And also that was one of the reasons why in another thread i said that I couldn't see him on his four.

Anyway, I scan accept now that maybe in some special circumstances, during years, Jack got the opportunity to play active and to have a balanced relationship. 

[tpe]

That's it¡ For him,being the passive role-in a physical way,because he was so more than once in an emotional or psychical way...-was a further step to the "queer" condition.Even,it could make him closer to a feminine condition; as a matter of fact,a man can be active in the same way both with a man or a woman.

This is actually an attitude common in certain segments of the gay population.  They even have special names/terms for this...  Of course, Ennis had definite ideas about queerness, and whatever they were, he didn't see fit to apply any of it to himself..  To apply it to Jack was perhaps a self-defense mechanism?

[tpe]

That was my point exactly when I said that being a passive is more about being queer, which Ennis denied ti himself. And also that was one of the reasons why in another thread i said that I couldn't see him on his four.

Anyway, I scan accept now that maybe in some special circumstances, during years, Jack got the opportunity to play active and to have a balanced relationship. 

Yes, I do realize this implication -- that Ennis's attitude to queerness is linked to his views on the passive role.  It is certainly a valid point.

[vedrana]

This is actually an attitude common in certain segments of the gay population.  They even have special names/terms for this...  Of course, Ennis had definite ideas about queerness, and whatever they were, he didn't see fit to apply any of it to himself..  To apply it to Jack was perhaps a self-defense mechanism?

I think that it is even a little funny how he was excluding himself from being a "queer" although he was emotionally and sexually mad about a man for years. Maybe he wasn't gay at all, but because of that fear he denied himself the only thing he ever wanted. 

[tpe]

I think that it is even a little funny how he was excluding himself from being a "queer" although he was emotionally and sexually mad about a man for years. Maybe he wasn't gay at all, but because of that fear he denied himself the only thing he ever wanted. 

I think fear had a lot to do with his use of the word "queer".  And yes, it was because of this fear that he denied himself for so long.  The beginning of the SNIT was one of the rare instances when he forgot this fear.  I would bet that "queerness" never entered his mind at that moment.

[vedrana]

I think fear had a lot to do with his use of the word "queer".  And yes, it was because of this fear that he denied himself for so long.  The beginning of the SNIT was one of the rare instances when he forgot this fear.  I would bet that "queerness" never entered his mind at that moment.

So true! Baby Tammy once posted a true story about two guys (Dan and Richard) who also began their affair in the tent as a fifteen year old boys just in the year of the reunion kiss. The story is very sad and it gave me a hard time for days, but the main point is Richard's words after they completely became crazy about each other : "We heard some story about queers, but this wasn't that!" So, when love knocked at the door, all the "queer" stories were applied only to others, but not to ones who were in love.

It is the same with Ennis. His yearning for Jack that night was so powerful that "queerness" didn't even touch his aura. It was a pure love and lust that led him to the tent and nothing could spoil it.

[tpe]

So true! Baby Tammy once posted a true story about two guys (Dan and Richard) who also began their affair in the tent as a fifteen year old boys just in the year of the reunion kiss. The story is very sad and it gave me a hard time for days, but the main point is Richard's words after they completely became crazy about each other : "We heard some story about queers, but this wasn't that!" So, when love knocked at the door, all the "queer" stories were applied only to others, but not to ones who were in love.

It is the same with Ennis. His yearning for Jack that night was so powerful that "queerness" didn't even touch his aura. It was a pure love and lust that led him to the tent and nothing could spoil it.

Clearly, Ennis made a distincion between homosexual acts and queerness.  But I wonder sometimes whether this distinction included in it a recognition of AFFECTION and not just the sexual act.  THis is clearly what distinguishes FNIT and SNIT.  In SNIT, the emotion AND the act are both undeniable.

[vedrana]

Clearly, Ennis made a distincion between homosexual acts and queerness.  But I wonder sometimes whether this distinction included in it a recognition of AFFECTION and not just the sexual act.  THis is clearly what distinguishes FNIT and SNIT.  In SNIT, the emotion AND the act are both undeniable.

I am not sure if Ennis made a distinction between homosexual acts and queerness. Had he done it, would he have been so afraid of the sweet life??

Also, his point of view about the essence, about the main reason for their relationship is not clear. What did he think about it, what is it? I'm not sure if I had been on this matter before, but now when I think about it - really what was he thinking? For him it was "this thing" -something he couldn't explain and he was afraid of! Cos he knew that it can overcome him in any moment!

[tpe]

I am not sure if Ennis made a distinction between homosexual acts and queerness. Had he done it, would he have been so afraid of the sweet life??

Also, his point of view about the essence, about the main reason for their relationship is not clear. What did he think about it, what is it? I'm not sure if I had been on this matter before, but now when I think about it - really what was he thinking? For him it was "this thing" -something he couldn't explain and he was afraid of! Cos he knew that it can overcome him in any moment!

He must have made the distinction.  He didn't consider himself a queer, correct?  But he engaged in homosexual acts...

[vedrana]

He must have made the distinction.  He didn't consider himself a queer, correct?  But he engaged in homosexual acts...

Hm... this is also a good point, but how did he feel about it? He's not queer, but he is doing it with a man... How did he explain it to himself? What was the distinction in his mind??

[atalley]

Good question...maybe he just knew that he wanted Jack & no one else; not that they were "queer".

[jesseanne21]

Hm... this is also a good point, but how did he feel about it? He's not queer, but he is doing it with a man... How did he explain it to himself? What was the distinction in his mind??

People often do things simply because THEY WANT TO, then later, they feel guilty and have to rationalize (make sense of) the reasons why.  The truth of "I wanted to" is just too hard to face, so people just put it out of their minds.

Ennis went into that tent because he WANTED TO.  He met up with Jack after 4 years because he WANTED TO.  He went on camping trips with Jack because he WANTED TO 

Sadly, he never really owned up to that truth.

[tpe]

Hm... this is also a good point, but how did he feel about it? He's not queer, but he is doing it with a man... How did he explain it to himself? What was the distinction in his mind??

Good question...maybe he just knew that he wanted Jack & no one else; not that they were "queer".

In real life, people have devised many ways/excuses to justify this.  For example, some people think that only bottoms can be rightfully considered queers and that tops are not...

[tpe]

People often do things simply because THEY WANT TO, then later, they feel guilty and have to rationalize (make sense of) the reasons why.  The truth of "I wanted to" is just too hard to face, so people just put it out of their minds.

Ennis went into that tent because he WANTED TO.  He met up with Jack after 4 years because he WANTED TO.  He went on camping trips with Jack because he WANTED TO 

Sadly, he never really owned up to that truth.

Yes.  And we can also think of it as an expression of mental compartmentalization.  This happens a lot with some religious people or people engrossed in politics, for example.  What they do or want is not necessarily in agreement with what they think.