Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion

[ksxks]

I can't add much more right now, but these are wonderful posts, jackster, aintfoolin, manhattengirl, lamusica.  I especially like contemplating how Ennis's views of himself would have changed over those 20 years, from in the beginning when "queer" was something he would in no way accept about himself, to later on perhaps being aware that around the country men like him and Jack were making themselves known as queer.  So his struggle went on...and...so true, so sad, that he could neither fix it nor stand it at the end.

I love to believe he would have come around, though, given more time with Jack.

But this thread is about Jack's sexuality -- and it does seem that he was just easier with his propensities all his life, for whatever reasons.  He could have been traumatized by his father, but he seemed to be one of those people who have a belief in himself -- so he left home and sought to find himself, secure at least in himself if not in how other people were around him.

kathy

[welshwitch]

Yes, I think you're right, Kathy. Jack knew what he was and just went ahead without much inner conflict - he seems to be one of those people who simply accepts himslef a he is and gets on with his life. He's evidently comfortable in his own skiin in a way Ennis never is.

[ksxks]

I wonder, WW -- what if the Rich and Earl incident never happened to Ennis?  What if it had happened to Jack instead?  I wonder how different each of them would be.  I'm inclined to think Ennis is just innately closed and paranoid, and Jack is more a free spirit.  Wherever those kinds of traits come from or however they are developed, I can picture both Ennis and Jack as young boys being similar to how they are when we see them.

kathy

[jackster]

The role reversal question is intriguing kathy. It’s easy for me to imagine old man Twist doing the same thing with little Jack, that is, takin’ him out to see a dead, castrated “queer”. And going further, I wonder what Ennis would’ve been like as a man if his father had been friends with Earl n’ Rich, possibly visiting with them playing cards or something with little Ennis. Would the story be a mirror image of itself? Of course a lot more goes into it, I think Jack’s mother had a lot to with his “gentle side”, and Ennis’s brother who (in the SS) used to beat on him contributed to his defensive side. It’s hard for me to believe anyone is innately this way – the old nature vs nurture question I guess.

jackster

[tpe]

Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too.  As you pointed out, tpe, the men who came before Ennis were just physical gratification to Jack.  I really believe  the FNIT is similar to those experiences -- fast, furious, rough, satisfying, but physical only.  I think it wasn't until the SNIT that Jack takes the experience WAAAAYYY past the physical.  He is tender, slow, coaxing, but not forceful.  He opens himself up to rejection; he leaves it up to Ennis whether or not he comes to Jack's tent.  This is the scene where, I believe, Jack falls in love.  He no longer wants an occasional f**k.  He wants some feeling from ENnis because he has those feelings FOR Ennis.  I don't think Jack ever felt like that about anyone, including Randall in the future.  (I think the SNIT opened the door to love for Ennis, but he wasn't there yet.  I don't believe ENnis fell in love until four years later when he finally realized what his physical actions meant when he got sick while walking down the road away from Jack after they left BBM.  Once ENnis realized why he was so angry and hurt so much, I think he figured out that he really loved this man and wanted him.  Therefore, when Jack re-emerges, Ennis is ready for love.)

I agree that the SNIT is probably the best first indication that Jack was in love, and not just in it for the physical gratification.

And it does seak volumes about Jack's sexuality: it goes beyond sexual preference.  It touches something universal: the need to be loved.  If there is anything that defines Jack's sexuality, it is probably this.

[tpe]

Yes, I certainly know what you mean, that "love" would have been much more difficult for both of them than "sex."  I mean, men have always had sex with each other (and with other things besides women), but it's not that difficult for them to deny that it has any meaning but a necessary gratification or relief of frustration.  These two...oh...so beautiful, the SNIT -- they moved on to something much more precious than just sex.

Well said, kathy.

Okay, this is definitely a big generalization, but we all know what is said about men and sex vs. women and sex -- that it is a much more purely physical act for men, but for women, it is tied in with our whole beings and maybe even the well-being of the world.  So we could say (on the subject of why women love men-in-love) that we love men, love Ennis and Jack, sharing sex in a "woman's way," sex with a whole heartful of emotion attached.  When they crossed that line they became lovers in the most wonderful sense of the word.

kathy

Actually, I do admit that I have understood Jack's sexuality in what is generally thought of as a more feminine aspect: the ability to engage beyond the purely physical.  I guess this is part of the reason why many associate the feminine aspect with Jack: that the physical act becomes intertwined in both the mind and the heart.  Whether or not we believe that this is indeed a feminine attribute is probably not important.  What is important is that we see Jack engage Ennis on more than one level.

[tpe]

Is that why it's so heartbreakingly disturbing and so beautiful to some of us?   

Yes.  I think this is also a big part of why I empathize with Jack's character and sexuality.

[tpe]

Jackster, you, too -- lovely words.  It fills me with...something rich and deep, and a little sad, and a little hopeful, to read all of this, this discussion of trying to understand this beautiful love we get to look at and learn from.

kathy

I agree.  I think a great part of Jack's sexuality had something to do with the need for affirmation, and the significance of Ennis's admission in the Motel scene would not have been lost...

[tpe]

“I ain’t queer . . . . me neither”.
This quote and it’s significance in terms of personal denial has been mentioned several times here and in other threads . . . .

IMHO I don’t think that either Ennis or Jack truly did think they were “queer” when this phase is uttered in ’63 – their shared sex notwithstanding. So to me this isn’t truly a denial. This is 1963, rural Wyoming. I’m no gay historian, but I think both guy’s would’ve thought a queer was someone who was effeminate, a nancy, or a dozen other adjectives used to describe non-masculine men who were considered queer in those parts (and many others) in those days - and for some time to come.

Again to me, it doesn’t seem that Ennis or Jack looked on either themselves or each other that way during their summer on Brokeback. I sense they both felt they were predominantly heterosexual, and that ruled out being considered “a queer”. I think of all the butch sailors in port cities who “allowed” themselves to be picked up by men for sex, I doubt many considered themselves “queer” either. One of the marvels of the modern gay pride movement has been to turn “queer” into a term many use today (40+ yrs later) with bravado to describe themselves. How and when Jack’s and Ennis’s view of this may have changed over the years is an interesting question to me. By the reunion kiss in '67, and then by '83, after 20 years of their relationship, did they think they were “queer” then? Or was there another term they would use to describe each other – “Tough old birds”   ?. . .  Is this one of the things that made Ennis finally breakdown with his crushing defeat of “I can’t stand this anymore Jack”? He saw himself as a "queer"?

jackster

jackster, yes, in a very early post of mine, I think I also thought that both of them at that point did not think of themselves as "queer".  Even though I sometimes think that Jack said "Me neither" simply to placate Ennis, I also feel that Jack understood and mirrored Ennis's view about the nature of their relationship.  I guess for me, the question of Jack's sexuality becomes more subtle when we consider this point of view.  It echoes Gyllenhaal's attempt to nuance the question of their sexuality and love -- and many people misunderstood (perhaps understandably) hsi attempt to see things simplistically.

[tpe]

But this thread is about Jack's sexuality -- and it does seem that he was just easier with his propensities all his life, for whatever reasons.  He could have been traumatized by his father, but he seemed to be one of those people who have a belief in himself -- so he left home and sought to find himself, secure at least in himself if not in how other people were around him.

kathy

People react to such trauma differently.  Some try to build up walls and defenses; others become more emotive and try to reach out.  I think Jack was more of the latter, and his emotional life defined his sexuality more than sexual preference, IMO.

[ksxks]

Whatever defines a man's being gay -- and we could discuss that until the sheep go home -- I'm thinking Jack does seem to have that in him, because of this:  the kind of life he wanted depended on his having a man, having Ennis, as a partner.  He obviously wanted that sweet life where they would share equally, have an "operation" together.  Not the kind of life he would have -- did have -- with a woman.

It might have been different for both Jack and Ennis if they were flat-out rejecting the totally "traditional" nuclear family mode -- if the constraints of that traditional masculine role were in part what drove their desires to share life with a man rather than with a woman.  But Lureen worked, as opposed to Jack being the sole breadwinner.  So he could have had a more "modern" relationship with her (and even having sex so freely before marriage was a sign of the modern times) but that was not what he wanted.  Something deeper drove his yearning for Ennis, and that could be said to be the complex psychoemotional thing that is "gay."  And he found in Ennis that key that unlocked his whole heart and self.

(In the 60's we can see this change was beginning.  Young women of my generation, as Alma and Lureen were, for the most part had every intention of working and having some kind of life other than what most of our mothers had had, which was staying home with kids.  This was both a blessing and a curse to (straight) men of the times -- it should have been seen as giving more freedom, but it was also seen as a challenge to their place on top.)

As to Ennis, his thing is so much more complicated than Jack's.  In his case, Alma going to work was not seen as a relationship with an "equal," but as his being a failure at providing for his family.  And that only wounded his fragile ego even more -- as if he wasn't already defensive enough at even the tinest thought that anyone might know who he really is.

Actually, this approach is kind of "politicizing" being gay, whereas in truth, it's generally not about options, rejecting the straight man's role -- it's just deeper, a more intrinsic emotional thing.  (But in the case of lesbians, it often is about rejecting a role and choosing another option.)

So let's see...the bottom line is...Jack is gay.  Until further notice.   

kathy

[tpe]

Whatever defines a man's being gay -- and we could discuss that until the sheep go home -- I'm thinking Jack does seem to have that in him, because of this:  the kind of life he wanted depended on his having a man, having Ennis, as a partner.  He obviously wanted that sweet life where they would share equally, have an "operation" together.  Not the kind of life he would have -- did have -- with a woman.

It might have been different for both Jack and Ennis if they were flat-out rejecting the totally "traditional" nuclear family mode -- if the constraints of that traditional masculine role were in part what drove their desires to share life with a man rather than with a woman.  But Lureen worked, as opposed to Jack being the sole breadwinner.  So he could have had a more "modern" relationship with her (and even having sex so freely before marriage was a sign of the modern times) but that was not what he wanted.  Something deeper drove his yearning for Ennis, and that could be said to be the complex psychoemotional thing that is "gay."  And he found in Ennis that key that unlocked his whole heart and self.

(In the 60's we can see this change was beginning.  Young women of my generation, as Alma and Lureen were, for the most part had every intention of working and having some kind of life other than what most of our mothers had had, which was staying home with kids.  This was both a blessing and a curse to (straight) men of the times -- it should have been seen as giving more freedom, but it was also seen as a challenge to their place on top.)

As to Ennis, his thing is so much more complicated than Jack's.  In his case, Alma going to work was not seen as a relationship with an "equal," but as his being a failure at providing for his family.  And that only wounded his fragile ego even more -- as if he wasn't already defensive enough at even the tinest thought that anyone might know who he really is.

Actually, this approach is kind of "politicizing" being gay, whereas in truth, it's generally not about options, rejecting the straight man's role -- it's just deeper, a more intrinsic emotional thing.  (But in the case of lesbians, it often is about rejecting a role and choosing another option.)

So let's see...the bottom line is...Jack is gay.  Until further notice.   

kathy

Interesting points kathy.

Some people would perhaps venture to say that the sex of Jack's beloved is merely incidental, and that the love he experienced went beyond gender and ventured into a deeper need for companionship.  True companionship was certainly not achieved with Lureen, but again, perhaps it was not the fault of Lureen being a woman, and it had more to do with her "masculine" self reliance and tendency to dominate the marriage.

Personally, I do agree that Jack's gayness has more to do with his intrinsic desire to share his life with a man for his partner.  This went beyond concepts of family and homestead in the traditional sense of these words.  On the surface, he had those already with Lureen.  Clearly, gayness here is on the level of "need" and not "preference", because I think it was not within Jack's power to elect a life of love with LUreen or any other woman. 

To a certain extent, I also think that Ennis's sexuality also went beyond the notion of elective affinities, although this is a subject for a different thread.  But at the core of my understanding of Jack's gayness is his need to love and be loved by a man, and the need to share his life with him, as opposed to being merely an elective affinity.

[aintfoolin]

I totally agree. Jack's happiness depended first and foremost  on Ennis. A man. When Ennis was'nt available Jack sought out men for sex. He was gay. Although in the movie Jack did'nt have or seek out women, but it is evident just by women on these threads that Jack could have many  if he so chose. I mean the man just has what women desire. But there is no doubt what he needed. ( " something he hardly ever got").It was more than than sex to him though. He also wanted a real loving partnership that involves co-habitation in a lifelong sense. He felt that strongly about it. He would,ve left Lureen at the drop of a hat if Ennis had agreeed to this. It's who he was body and soul.My 2 cents

[manhattangirl]

But all this begs the question, why in heck did he stayed married to Lureen  He had  an opportunity to be bought off, but Ennis is the one with the divorce,  Jack died married, how ironic is that?   

[greenfrog]

But all this begs the question, why in heck did he stayed married to Lureen  He had  an opportunity to be bought off, but Ennis is the one with the divorce,  Jack died married, how ironic is that?   

O.K. I hope I don't offend anyone . . .

Jack was married into a wealthy family who had a respectable position (more or less) in the community. Considering that this was (70's or 80's) back in the day when divorce was still (sort of) frowned upon,  I think there would have been more "talk" from the community and Lureen's family if they where to get a divorce.

Ennis on the other hand was living in a much poorer state and (how do I put this) probably wasn't thought as highly by wealthy folks. In short, it makes me think that, the wealthier people might have expected that from someone who was as poor and depressed as Ennis.

I hope that made some sort of sense.

[tpe]

I totally agree. Jack's happiness depended first and foremost  on Ennis. A man. When Ennis was'nt available Jack sought out men for sex. He was gay. Although in the movie Jack did'nt have or seek out women, but it is evident just by women on these threads that Jack could have many  if he so chose. I mean the man just has what women desire. But there is no doubt what he needed. ( " something he hardly ever got"). It was more than than sex to him though. He also wanted a real loving partnership that involves co-habitation in a lifelong sense. He felt that strongly about it. He would,ve left Lureen at the drop of a hat if Ennis had agreeed to this. It's who he was body and soul.My 2 cents

This is at the core of Jack's sexuality -- it was predicated on seeking out something beyond sex.  It's the key to understanding how he loved.  That's why we love him.

 

[tpe]

But all this begs the question, why in heck did he stayed married to Lureen  He had  an opportunity to be bought off, but Ennis is the one with the divorce,  Jack died married, how ironic is that?   

He stayed with Lureen partly because that was what Ennis expected him to do, I think.  It also served as a convenient cover over the years, since Lureen was largely indifferent to Jack after the first few years.   Did Jack practice his conjugal duties?  I suspect not, after the first few years.  Other women many have objected to this or would have been grounds for dissatisfaction.  But not in Lureen's case, I suspect.  So Jack had with Lureen a "perfect" partner.  I think they remained largely civil up the end -- like perfect strangers.

 

[tpe]

O.K. I hope I don't offend anyone . . .

Jack was married into a wealthy family who had a respectable position (more or less) in the community. Considering that this was (70's or 80's) back in the day when divorce was still (sort of) frowned upon,  I think there would have been more "talk" from the community and Lureen's family if they where to get a divorce.

Ennis on the other hand was living in a much poorer state and (how do I put this) probably wasn't thought as highly by wealthy folks. In short, it makes me think that, the wealthier people might have expected that from someone who was as poor and depressed as Ennis.

I hope that made some sort of sense.

Well, divorce with Jack would have probably been more complicated when it came to money matters, and Lureen probably did not see it advantagous in this regard to push for a divorce that would bring money into contention.

I think beyond a certain level of wealth, divorce is not uncommon.  But I agree that with a moralistic midlle class of a small town, people are bound to talk.

Jack's relationship with Lureen was purely a matter of convenience after the first few years.  They understood each other up to a point.   It probably played no direct part in Jack's sexuality in those later years, except as a cover to seek gratification and comfort elsewhere.

[jackster]

He stayed with Lureen partly because that was what Ennis expected him to do, I think.
 

Huh? Sorry, tpe you've lost me here. Can you enlighten me on this? 

jackster

[tpe]

Huh? Sorry, tpe you've lost me here. Can you enlighten me on this? 

jackster

Sorry jackster, I should have elaborated.

I was thinking of the night up in the Mountains during their reunion:  You've got your wife and baby, and I've got my life in Riverton.  The context of this statement was that Jack was trying to convince Ennis to come away with him: he would divorce Lureen, and the money that he would get from the divorce settlement would be the nest egg on which to start a ranch together.

Ennis I think was not simply saying to Jack that he did not want to go in that direction.  I think Ennis was also telling him that they now had other responsibilities and that he expected that these now had precedence over their own desire to be together.  It was as if he was defining for Jack the way the following years should go -- seeing each other periodically, but never really making the jump that would cut themselves off from their respective families and the responsibilities that came with it.

Another thing is that I think Ennis felt that his staying with Alma and Jack with Lureen will allow them the necessary cover.  It goes back to my belief that Ennis really thought that keeping the status quo would keep their love out of sight from a disapproving society.  Hence, maintaining the status quo would in effect protect their relationship from hostile threats from the outside.

[jackster]

Sorry jackster, I should have elaborated.

Thanks tpe, I understand now. My take on that was that once HE was divorced it was probably OK for Jack too. .
jackster

[manhattangirl]

Why didn't Jack without Ennis knowing, do you think, leave Lureen?   Start his life over and just went to Ennis and told him after it was said and done?   

It continues for me be so amazing how the slightest shift in the lives of these men, who rarely so each other but a few times a year, was intertwined and could and did cause tension between them. 

[tpe]

Thanks tpe, I understand now. My take on that was that once HE was divorced it was probably OK for Jack too. .
jackster

Thanks also for asking, jackster.  It did need some elaboration on my part.

[tpe]

Why didn't Jack without Ennis knowing, do you think, leave Lureen?   Start his life over and just went to Ennis and told him after it was said and done?   

It continues for me be so amazing how the slightest shift in the lives of these men, who rarely so each other but a few times a year, was intertwined and could and did cause tension between them. 

I think Jack would not have gained anything by divorcing Lureen.  I don't think Ennis would have changed his mind because of it.  It was really Ennis's call, no?

Remember that when Ennis divorced, Jack assumed that Ennis was then willing to live with him, and Jack was ready to divorce Lureen.

This is again a clear manifestation of Jack's pargamatic approach in his relationship with women.  I guess he could live with them placidly enough, even if it became sexually and emotionaly unfulfilling.  It would seem to me that although jack was capable of having and perhaps even enjoying sexual relations with women, his realy needs and source of satisfaction was rooted in his love for men and his desire to be with them.

 

[manhattangirl]

Ennis's call,  yes,  Ennis's control.  Jack didn't stand a chance with him.

[tpe]

Ennis's call,  yes,  Ennis's control.  Jack didn't stand a chance with him.

Yes, Jack was helpless in the sense that his dream depended on Ennis's willingness to go along with it.  This is the dilemma that is Love, and not just sexuality, unfortunately.

[manhattangirl]

After the fnit, and Ennis approached Jack "this is a one shot thing we got going on here"  Ennis wanted him again.  in order to do this, he lay out the ground rules, right from the start.  Jack must have been overjoyed,  instead of raising that 30/30 and blowing his brains out, (which I think for a minute he thought it would happen, this just a passing thought I had, I'm weird that way), Ennis was acknowledging that what happened was real, and will happen again, the fact that Ennis warned him, Jack from that moment on was trying to relate to him that what they had was real, and could last.  That second night was crucial for Jack.  It proved that Ennis indeed wanted him, but awaken something so deep in Ennis which in turn he tried to deny. 

In most cases Love and Sexuality are bound together, but to deny love and deny sexuality at the same time, but being ruled by both leads to a life Ennis was living and Jack was fighting against.     Does this make any sense? 

[lachlan]

I,  for one,  certainly agree with all of that.   I think that Ang Lee deliberately devised the scene of the day after FNIT  - with the images of the dead sheep,  Ennis'' obvious tension,  Jack's shivering while washing the shirts,  and the eerie music as they finally meet on the mountainside;  not facing one another,  Ennis with his rifle in hand - as a means of worrying the viewer that something violent might happen.   Therefore the finish of that scene (with the change of music from tense to comforting) make the SNIT all the more relieving.

[tpe]

After the fnit, and Ennis approached Jack "this is a one shot thing we got going on here"  Ennis wanted him again.  in order to do this, he lay out the ground rules, right from the start.  Jack must have been overjoyed,  instead of raising that 30/30 and blowing his brains out, (which I think for a minute he thought it would happen, this just a passing thought I had, I'm weird that way), Ennis was acknowledging that what happened was real, and will happen again, the fact that Ennis warned him, Jack from that moment on was trying to relate to him that what they had was real, and could last.  That second night was crucial for Jack.  It proved that Ennis indeed wanted him, but awaken something so deep in Ennis which in turn he tried to deny. 

In most cases Love and Sexuality are bound together, but to deny love and deny sexuality at the same time, but being ruled by both leads to a life Ennis was living and Jack was fighting against.     Does this make any sense? 

I do think for Jack, there was lesss dichotomy between his love for Ennis and his sexuality, especially when we compare him to Ennis.   With Jack, love required that they affirm their sexuality -- recognizing not only the gender of the beloved, but also going beyond physical gratification and addressing deeper feelings, deeper needs, deeper yearnings.  This helped Jack reconcile the reality within himself, and thus, he was less tortured and more secure about himself than Ennis.

[tpe]

I,  for one,  certainly agree with all of that.   I think that Ang Lee deliberately devised the scene of the day after FNIT  - with the images of the dead sheep,  Ennis'' obvious tension,  Jack's shivering while washing the shirts,  and the eerie music as they finally meet on the mountainside;  not facing one another,  Ennis with his rifle in hand - as a means of worrying the viewer that something violent might happen.   Therefore the finish of that scene (with the change of music from tense to comforting) make the SNIT all the more relieving.

I agree with what you say here, lachlan.  It is noce that you note the details such as the rifle and Jack shivering.

It would also seem that the worry (our's and Jack's) is centered on how Ennis would react.  I suspect that most of us assumed that Jack took everything in stride and that we had no worry about his owning up everything that happened in the FNIT.  Again, this hints at Jack being the more expereienced and more accepting of the two, especially when sexuality and love are concerned.