Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion

[tpe]

I suspect that he though Jack preferred men, even though he was married and clearly was capable od being sexually involved with women.  It certainly came out in the last meeting, when he refers t "boys like you" -- negating himself from the lot.  It is part defensive mechanism and part denial of a part of himself.  It was easier for him to refer to "boys like you" when it involved Jack and other men -- never when it involved Jack and himself...

[manhattangirl]

TPE AND AINTFOOLIN,

I learn a lot here, and I agree with what you two were saying.   Ennis's statement "boys like you"  removed himself, and what struck me was that he would kill  Jack if ever found out about his other "encounters".  Major denial, and major possessive nature.

When a man gets angry at a woman he'll say something about her lack of being a lady, a street walker or something in that nature, maybe this is what Ennis is saying to Jack, when he said "boys like you in other words "You're low just like the rest of them."  To hurt him. 

Ennis didn't want to be like Jack, but he wanted Jack for himself.  In the end he was more like Jack then he wanted to accept.  He was doing the dance, but didn't want to listen to the music, so to speak.

[tpe]

The fact that Jack was more emotive made him more open to the insinuation.  It is notable that Jack made no attempt to deny it -- in fact, he affirmed it, probably to irritate Ennis all the more.  But it is interesting to see how far Jack had come since the first confrontation after the FNIT.

I don't think Jack had the same issues as Ennis when it came to accepting his innate attraction to men.  In the end, I think he wore it with defiance -- as with a badge of honor.

[manhattangirl]

If that was the case, then how could they keep going the way they were?    Jack had his own issues, but he was growing in spite of them and slowly from Ennis.  Jack was more accepting of his sexuality.   And you're right he lay it out to Ennis in the final confrontation, remember how he told Ennis that once or twice a year wasn't enough for him, and the line about the "short leash", struck me to the heart. Is that how he really felt, we all knew that, but he finally saw it.   

I don't see any way Jack could have come back in November, if had lived.  He loved Ennis,  but it was too painful to go through the same game with him.

[aintfoolin]

I respectfully disagree with your last statements. Had he lived he'd showed up at Pine Creek ,armed with an ultimatum if Ennis was'nt talkin right. After this confrontation, Jack would'nt have missed this meeting for the world imo. This was a long battle for a deep passionate love. 20 years of hope on Jack's part. It was probably the meeting that would,ve made or broke the relationship. he would get an answer from Ennis wether he would sh-t or get off the pot in this meeting.  At this point they both knew the game is over.  Jack knows Ennis will have something VERY important to say. He had forced Ennis's hand in that confrntation. Inlight of Jack's honest,truthful, yet painful words spoken in their last meeting, Ennis has had plenty of time to think. It was  major decision time and Jack was'nt about to miss hearing Ennis's reaction to those words ,wether or not it was what he wanted to hear so that he could take the next steps into his future with or without Ennis. He forced
Ennis to make a major choice and it was essential that he hear it face to face. He'da showed.  Always, in my humble opinion.

[manhattangirl]

aintfoolin,

if that was the case,  then it would have gone like that till both died a natural death,  Jacks pleading and Ennis refusal.  Ennis's girl would have been grown, so him working to pay child support would no longer be valid.  What would have been his new excuse?   

Jack was at that point, like you said sh-t or get off the pot. What would have been different if they would have met in November, that's the $64,000. question. I think Jack would still watching Ennis drive off again, looking forward to the next meeting, like always.

[welshwitch]

Going by the ss dates, Alma Jr would have been 18 in Sept 1982 and "Jenny", as the movie calls her, sometime in 1984. thus by Nov '83 Ennis would have been free of half his child support payments and withing sight of the end of the others. At least then he couldn't claim those as preventing him from leaving to be with Jack. Since he saw the gilrs infrequently at best, he could easily have seen them at the same sort of intervals wherever he was living, and of course they are mobile - Alms Jr has access to a car.

So it comes down to what he wanted to do, and by the next Novemeber, if he was still hanging back, Jack had only two options, to give him an ultimatum knowing he would refuse to comply or go on as he had done for so long. And Ennis must have had some idea of this, so to me it seems that what he couldn't do was abandon his idea of himself as the macho man, husband, father, etc., and admit that what he wanted was another man. Clearly by putting Jack into a category ("boys like you") from which he excludes himself he is still denying, even after so long, his essential nature. In which case he's not going to change if he hasn't now. 

I don't think he'd necessarily stop loving Jack, just wouldn't be prepared to admit publicly that he did and move himslef into the same category as Jack.

[tpe]

If that was the case, then how could they keep going the way they were?    Jack had his own issues, but he was growing in spite of them and slowly from Ennis.  Jack was more accepting of his sexuality.   And you're right he lay it out to Ennis in the final confrontation, remember how he told Ennis that once or twice a year wasn't enough for him, and the line about the "short leash", struck me to the heart. Is that how he really felt, we all knew that, but he finally saw it.   

The miracle was that they went on for almost 20 years this way.  A lot of it has to do with Jack's persistence and tenacity to keep it going as it was, in spite of Ennis's gathering reluctance.  He couldn't have done it if he had the same issues that confronted Ennis.  The fact that he was able to maintain tenacity is testament to his certainty of the kind of love he desired.
 

I don't see any way Jack could have come back in November, if had lived.  He loved Ennis,  but it was too painful to go through the same game with him.

This is discussed in other threads.  I hope I can find these and refer them to you.

[tpe]

I respectfully disagree with your last statements. Had he lived he'd showed up at Pine Creek ,armed with an ultimatum if Ennis was'nt talkin right. After this confrontation, Jack would'nt have missed this meeting for the world imo. This was a long battle for a deep passionate love. 20 years of hope on Jack's part. It was probably the meeting that would,ve made or broke the relationship. he would get an answer from Ennis wether he would sh-t or get off the pot in this meeting.  At this point they both knew the game is over.  Jack knows Ennis will have something VERY important to say. He had forced Ennis's hand in that confrntation. Inlight of Jack's honest,truthful, yet painful words spoken in their last meeting, Ennis has had plenty of time to think. It was  major decision time and Jack was'nt about to miss hearing Ennis's reaction to those words ,wether or not it was what he wanted to hear so that he could take the next steps into his future with or without Ennis. He forced
Ennis to make a major choice and it was essential that he hear it face to face. He'da showed.  Always, in my humble opinion.

aintfoolin,

if that was the case,  then it would have gone like that till both died a natural death,  Jacks pleading and Ennis refusal.  Ennis's girl would have been grown, so him working to pay child support would no longer be valid.  What would have been his new excuse?   

Jack was at that point, like you said sh-t or get off the pot. What would have been different if they would have met in November, that's the $64,000. question. I think Jack would still watching Ennis drive off again, looking forward to the next meeting, like always.

Going by the ss dates, Alma Jr would have been 18 in Sept 1982 and "Jenny", as the movie calls her, sometime in 1984. thus by Nov '83 Ennis would have been free of half his child support payments and withing sight of the end of the others. At least then he couldn't claim those as preventing him from leaving to be with Jack. Since he saw the gilrs infrequently at best, he could easily have seen them at the same sort of intervals wherever he was living, and of course they are mobile - Alms Jr has access to a car.

So it comes down to what he wanted to do, and by the next Novemeber, if he was still hanging back, Jack had only two options, to give him an ultimatum knowing he would refuse to comply or go on as he had done for so long. And Ennis must have had some idea of this, so to me it seems that what he couldn't do was abandon his idea of himself as the macho man, husband, father, etc., and admit that what he wanted was another man. Clearly by putting Jack into a category ("boys like you") from which he excludes himself he is still denying, even after so long, his essential nature. In which case he's not going to change if he hasn't now. 

I don't think he'd necessarily stop loving Jack, just wouldn't be prepared to admit publicly that he did and move himslef into the same category as Jack.

Again, I should note that this issue is discussed elsewhere.  Let's keep the discussion centered on Jack's sexuality. 

[monicita]

tpe, darling, you are so right!

This whole thing is about Jack's sexuality, not about Ennis. In my opinion, Jack took an important step when he started talking to his parents about bringing Randall to their place (yes, yes, I know, some of us really hate to think of that!). He decided to give his life and his sexuality an new direction. Why his sexuality? Because he decided to try to live his dream with somebody who, if not openly gay, was very upfront about wanting to have sex with Jack (the scene on the bench after the dance). What I am asking myself is: Would it have worked any better with Randall? Would Randall have given up his old life to be with Jack? Maybe Jack was reenacting something here: his rejection. Did he pick people he knew would reject him on some level? And was that because he was afraid of his own sexuality in some way?

monicita

[FlwrChild]

Hmm, interesting thought Monicita. If we are to believe he was really contemplating bringing Randall there, he might have subconsciously chosen someone he thought might not follow through (so that he wouldn't have to follow through either). But as far as Ennis goes, I think Jack would have been with him anywhere and he wanted Ennis because he couldn't help himself. So if he picked people after Ennis who wouldn't follow through, maybe that was a subconscious attempt to hold onto Ennis while at the same time making the gesture (for himself maybe?) of trying to live a life as a gay man. Did that make any sense?

[manhattangirl]

IMO;

To me Jack was certain about his sexuality,  he had no questions, he didn't  spend his time pondering about it, he didn't take to  his sick bed or look for divine guidance.  Jack was gay, Jack was gay before he met Ennis.   His parents knew he was gay, or at least his mother knew.   Remember Lureen never met his parents,  that should tell something right there, after almost twenty years of marrigage, (give me a break? )   But he would have bought Ennis to them, unfortunately it was  after his death did Ennis finally meet them, and maybe  he would have brought Randall to "meet the parents " (perish the thought).  If it hadn't been Ennis refusal to have a "Real good life",  Jack and Ennis would have built their house on L.F. and lived happily ever after. 

[FlwrChild]

I actually like to think that under the right circumstances, Jack and Ennis could have made a go of it. They had very difficult jobs on that mountain but both were raised on hard work. They worked well together and respected each other. And I don't think their affection was just based on the fact that they were the two that happened to be on the mountain that year. I think they were genuinely drawn to each other (and Jack's obvious initial attraction for Ennis doesn't lessen the affection he developed for him later).

I don't think I agree about Jack's wandering eye either. He approached the rodeo clown during a time when he didn't know if he'd ever see Ennis again and they were both trying to live separate lives (remember this was after he went back to Brokeback to see Ennis and he hadn't been back). And I definitely don't think he easily took up with a male prostitute. He was utterly shattered when he realized Ennis didn't want to change anything in their relationship after his divorce. He was gut shot and heartbroken and looked more resigned and desperate than happy when he went off with the prostitute. And Randall was late in life when a lot of the loneliness and unhappines had built up in him. I believe that if he had Ennis, truly had him in his life, he wouldn't have turned to anyone else because there would be no need to.

As far as Ennis's marriage to Alma goes, I don't think we need to lay any responsibility at her door. Or justify Ennis's behavior. He didn't treat her well. Intentional or not, that was the result. And I think the reason the marriage didn't work is because he needed something (and someone) that she couldn't give him. I don't think he sought refuge in Jack's arms. I think he had already found it there and was never able to let go of his need for it (or Jack). Alma and that marriage never stood a chance.

Of course, I'm a romantic too so my opinion might be a little biased.

Yes, I believe Jack was gay (and knew it) and that Ennis was too (but was never able to accept it).
And either way, in a better world, they might have had a good life together.

[manhattangirl]

HiAltShag:  Friend, no apologies necessary

It sounds to me you're looking for someone to blame.  Why?  This is a  human drama.  Alma is not to blame for anything, so why were  you looking for it?   Why condemn Jack because he went to a  male prostitute, he was honest enough to tell Ennis he wants more then a couple of high altitude F#@ks, once or twice a year? He wanted a life with Ennis.

 You look for  a right and wrong in Alma and Jack,  but say nothing of Ennis little part in this whole drama.    Like he's a innocent but troubled , sexually confused bystander.   Ennis took no emotional responsibility for what was going  on unless pushed. 

He felt indifference towards Alma, (I'm sorry but it was indifference,sexual and emotional),  and cut himself off physically and emotionally from Jack unless its the designated month when they met.   Ennis could box and stack his feelings very neatly.

If I seem hard on Ennis I'm not but there is a reason for everything that went on, all took part in it one way or the other.  There's no black hats or white hats, just people.

[lachlan]

I've only just joined this and haven't read all of the discussion, but I just wrote an entry under "Is Ennis gay?" It could have fit in this column. Further to what I wrote there: In the '60s, Mexican males were less hung-up about being labled "queer" and it was relatively common for them to play around with other guys - with or without pay - and still feel macho and attracted to women. Americans often joked of this and that would explain Ennis' comment "I've heard... in Mexico". The concept of fixated "gayness" is relatively recent and first appears in Anglo-American society within the past century. As for Jimbo, I believe that Lary McMurtry took this brief scene from another of Annie's short stories which describes the loneliness of the itinerant bull-rider. Jack is from Wyoming (an economically poor state) in wealthy, clique-ish Texas riding bulls; an occupation of outsiders short of money. His approach to Jimbo - in my mind, and perhaps in Jack's - could be simply an attempt to find acceptance with a local who is part of a group. Jimbo rejects him as a tainted outsider and resumes his place among the calf-ropers; the Club. The barman suggests to Jack that he take up calf-roping if he wants to become socially acceptible. This scenario is expressed in Annie Proulx's other stories without necessarily any "gay" element. But Jack's return to Ennis could have been fueled by his need for the one person who truly accepted and admired him. I think that was the intention of the Jimbo scene.  Lachlan

[tpe]

tpe, darling, you are so right!

This whole thing is about Jack's sexuality, not about Ennis. In my opinion, Jack took an important step when he started talking to his parents about bringing Randall to their place (yes, yes, I know, some of us really hate to think of that!). He decided to give his life and his sexuality an new direction. Why his sexuality? Because he decided to try to live his dream with somebody who, if not openly gay, was very upfront about wanting to have sex with Jack (the scene on the bench after the dance). What I am asking myself is: Would it have worked any better with Randall? Would Randall have given up his old life to be with Jack? Maybe Jack was reenacting something here: his rejection. Did he pick people he knew would reject him on some level? And was that because he was afraid of his own sexuality in some way?

monicita

Again, another interesting question, monacita: because I myself had been accused by friends of dealing with impossible relationships. 

I think that it was not the case with Jack.  I personally thought that he had just had enough not being able to live the kind of life he wanted, and that he probably didn't care anymore what other people thought.  It was perhaps a reaction to Ennis's caution and inability to deal with what he himself desired.  The way he stood up to Ennis's accusation ("You boys") is most telling.

But yes, it may very well be a conscious decision to move in a different direction as far as his sexuality is concerned. 

[welshwitch]

If "boys like you" is the category Ennis is putting him in, Jack may think he may as well go with someone who evidently doesn;t see anything wrong with that - clearly Randall thinks Jack is available and is prepared to do something about it, so he sees Jack as like himself, which Ennis doesn't.

[tpe]

IMO;

To me Jack was certain about his sexuality,  he had no questions, he didn't  spend his time pondering about it, he didn't take to  his sick bed or look for divine guidance.  Jack was gay, Jack was gay before he met Ennis.   His parents knew he was gay, or at least his mother knew.   Remember Lureen never met his parents,  that should tell something right there, after almost twenty years of marrigage, (give me a break? )   But he would have bought Ennis to them, unfortunately it was  after his death did Ennis finally meet them, and maybe  he would have brought Randall to "meet the parents " (perish the thought).  If it hadn't been Ennis refusal to have a "Real good life",  Jack and Ennis would have built their house on L.F. and lived happily ever after. 

Jack was certainly more decisive, even in matters where sexuality was concerned.  And yes, personally, I thought he exhibited a more defined orientation than Ennis.

And yet, I had wondered if he had remained open to women.  His ambiguous statement of having an affair with LaShawn does hint that such a possibility was on his mind.

One question that had remained in my mind was how long did his intimacy with Lureen last.  One side tells me that it could not have lasted after Lureen became entirely consumed with business.  Still, did he consciously shy away from such an intimacy, or was he just left with mo choice?

[tpe]

Yes, I believe Jack was gay (and knew it) and that Ennis was too (but was never able to accept it).
And either way, in a better world, they might have had a good life together.

Personally, this is how I feel also...

[tpe]

I've only just joined this and haven't read all of the discussion, but I just wrote an entry under "Is Ennis gay?" It could have fit in this column. Further to what I wrote there: In the '60s, Mexican males were less hung-up about being labled "queer" and it was relatively common for them to play around with other guys - with or without pay - and still feel macho and attracted to women. Americans often joked of this and that would explain Ennis' comment "I've heard... in Mexico". The concept of fixated "gayness" is relatively recent and first appears in Anglo-American society within the past century. As for Jimbo, I believe that Lary McMurtry took this brief scene from another of Annie's short stories which describes the loneliness of the itinerant bull-rider. Jack is from Wyoming (an economically poor state) in wealthy, clique-ish Texas riding bulls; an occupation of outsiders short of money. His approach to Jimbo - in my mind, and perhaps in Jack's - could be simply an attempt to find acceptance with a local who is part of a group. Jimbo rejects him as a tainted outsider and resumes his place among the calf-ropers; the Club. The barman suggests to Jack that he take up calf-roping if he wants to become socially acceptible. This scenario is expressed in Annie Proulx's other stories without necessarily any "gay" element. But Jack's return to Ennis could have been fueled by his need for the one person who truly accepted and admired him. I think that was the intention of the Jimbo scene.  Lachlan

lachlan, thank you.

Indeed the concept of gayness is fairly recent.  Then again, the term "homosexuality" is also relatively recent, having been coined in the 19th century.

Still, the concept of homoerotic sexuality is very ancient, and it is this ancient concept that pretty much underlies the two more recent concepts. 

We must note that when we refer to Jack's gayness, we refer primarily to that underlying concept, which is connected to the notion of sexual identity, and is of course a universal idea.

Wwe should recognize that labels -- like all words in any human language -- are approximations to these universal and very deep underlying concepts touching on human nature, and it is the concepts that we wish to address.

[manhattangirl]

One question that had remained in my mind was how long did his intimacy with Lureen last.  One side tells me that it could not have lasted after Lureen became entirely consumed with business.  Still, did he consciously shy away from such an intimacy, or was he just left with mo choice?

Look to the wife for answers to that question.   Lureen's appearance changed over the years,  her hair got blonder, she wore more make up and jewelry, she was holding on to what she think is womanhood.   She was emphasizing her femininity, holding on to it.   Remember she was the sexually aggressive one in the beginning,   Jack went for the ride.  But, what if she noticed how the sexual dynamics in their marriage worked, how many times she waited for him to take her, reach out to her, but didn't.  Believe me it works on the mind, and the imagine of yourself.   

[manhattangirl]

HiAltShag:

Friend,

We're sure as heck not going see eye to eye on somethings, thanks, I do enjoy talking with someone who has another train of thought, and has me thinking in other directions. It's a lot more fun that way. 

[FlwrChild]

Hi again HiAltShag.

Just to clarify, I don't mean to say that the work ethic would have any influence on their 'ability to overcome strong male sex drive and develope resistance to cheat'. I don't actually think the two are related. I was just noting some of the reasons I thought their relationship could work (if they decided to be together). Their ability to work well together being one of them.

As to the strong sex drive and temptation to cheat, again I don't actually think that's an issue. I believe that Jack only pursued it elsewhere because he couldn't have Ennis. I have no reason to think that he would have become 'easily smitten' with anyone else if he had Ennis with him (of course, that's an unknown variable in any relationship so who can predict - it's just my sense of things).

I agree with you 100% about Ennis being ashamed of his relationship with Jack. And Jack knowing it.
But I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not he respects Jack. I think that is about his attitudes about homosexuality and the way he was brought up to think it was wrong. I see no evidence to indicate he didn't respect Jack. And those occasions when he was dismissive (like in the river scene when they're talking about going to Texas) are, I think, Ennis's defensive habits at work.

As to Alma, I guess I just see this character differently than you. I don't think she was particularly sophisticated. She was a small town girl, with apparently little advanced education, who was raising two kids in a little town and didn't get out much. I think with Alma, what you see is what you get. But, as I said, that is just my impression of this character. As with all of the secondary characters, we have to kind of fill in the blanks for ourselves from where the SS and screenplay left things vague.

It's harder for me to pin down my sense of your impression of Ennis. I think we agree on a lot of elements of his character. But I don't know that I think he had much concern about where he fit in with mankind in general. As you said, he wanted to have a ranch of his own somewhere. My guess is the more isolated the better. He wasn't, by his own admission, very social: "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year." But even if he had attained that goal while married to Alma, I don't think he would have necessarily been happy with her. He couldn't get Jack out of his mind (or his heart). And if he could've had a ranch with Jack without having to worry about the scorn or the tire irons, I think he would have. Because it was Jack he wanted to be with. Whether he could bring himself to admit it under the circumstances in the story or not.

[welshwitch]

We seem to have wandered on to Ennis here!

But I agree that Jack was aware of his own sexual impulses in a way Ennis wasn't, and acted on them. However, part of the problem here is that we're dealing with characters ( not just Jack) who are not intellectual, analytical, introverted, though Jack is more self-aware than Ennis. But I don;t think Jack has come to thionk of him,slef as gay or indeed as anything in particular. I think he just knows what he wants and goes after it, without mentally categorizing it.

[manhattangirl]

We seem to have wandered on to Ennis here!

But I agree that Jack was aware of his own sexual impulses in a way Ennis wasn't, and acted on them. However, part of the problem here is that we're dealing with characters ( not just Jack) who are not intellectual, analytical, introverted, though Jack is more self-aware than Ennis. But I don;t think Jack has come to thionk of him,slef as gay or indeed as anything in particular. I think he just knows what he wants and goes after it, without mentally categorizing it.

.   

I couldn't agree more.  Jack did not spend time obsessing about his sexuality or gave it much thought if any.  I also agree he wouldn't labelled himself one way or the other.

But don't you know what is interesting?   That  Alma, Ennis, Aguirre, all came up with terms and phrase when it came to Jack.  "Jack Nasty" and "boys like you"  "stemming the rose", (I think was the term).   

Alma saw Jack as a direct cause for the destruction of her marriage to Ennis,  Ennis saw Jack as a direct threat in, in spite of his whelming love and need for him, obtaining his idea of a conventional life.   Aguirre just represents society and how it felt about homosexuality.     And Jack unknowingly became the centerpiece of  these three people's fears, anger, and misunderstanding. 

Jack was the only one without issues, he wanted Ennis, it's was as simple as that to him.

[FlwrChild]

welshwitch and manhattangirl, I think you summed that up very well.

[tpe]

Look to the wife for answers to that question.   Lureen's appearance changed over the years,  her hair got blonder, she wore more make up and jewelry, she was holding on to what she think is womanhood.   She was emphasizing her femininity, holding on to it.   Remember she was the sexually aggressive one in the beginning,   Jack went for the ride.  But, what if she noticed how the sexual dynamics in their marriage worked, how many times she waited for him to take her, reach out to her, but didn't.  Believe me it works on the mind, and the imagine of yourself.   

Interesting! Yes, by her transformation, you could read the estrangement and Jack's loss of interest in her.

[tpe]

.   

I couldn't agree more.  Jack did not spend time obsessing about his sexuality or gave it much thought if any.  I also agree he wouldn't labelled himself one way or the other.

But don't you know what is interesting?   That  Alma, Ennis, Aguirre, all came up with terms and phrase when it came to Jack.  "Jack Nasty" and "boys like you"  "stemming the rose", (I think was the term).   

Alma saw Jack as a direct cause for the destruction of her marriage to Ennis,  Ennis saw Jack as a direct threat in, in spite of his whelming love and need for him, obtaining his idea of a conventional life.   Aguirre just represents society and how it felt about homosexuality.     And Jack unknowingly became the centerpiece of  these three people's fears, anger, and misunderstanding. 

Jack was the only one without issues, he wanted Ennis, it's was as simple as that to him.

So many interesting points here.

I do agree that Jack was more comfortable about his sexuality.  I think he was at peace with how he felt and who he loved.  That is what sustains him.

[jacks_key]

^^I totally agree, Thomas.  Jack was not conflicted emotionally; he felt what he felt, and that's all.  That's one of the (many) things I love about the character.

[tpe]

^^I totally agree, Thomas.  Jack was not conflicted emotionally; he felt what he felt, and that's all.  That's one of the (many) things I love about the character.

jacks_key, yes, I do agree that Jack was more of a feeler than a thinker.  If he were more of the latter, he probably would not have allowed himself to have fallen in love and follow his desires.  Even if we remove for the moment the question of his sexuality and the nature of his desires, one cannot help but love him for putting his heart first.