Topic: Alma Jr. - "Me and Kurt...we're getting married."

[Patriot1]

I started this thread because of the note Larry and Diana put into the screenplay.

Ennis says, "So what's the occasion?"

Then the screenplay says, "Alma Jr. blows on her coffee, something on her mind. This is hard for her...."

Then:

ALMA JR.: (apprehensive) "Me and Kurt...we're getting married."

My question is, why would Alma Jr. find it so difficult to tell her father she and Kurt are getting married? Why would she be so apprehensive? Did she think Ennis would try to stop her? I could see her being apprehensive  about him telling her he can't attend, but apprehensive about telling him?

Any thoughts?

[tpe]

I had wondered whether Alma Jr. felt that her father had grown to hate the idea of marriage.  "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" of course has a hidden meaning for some of us, but perhaps she also felt that matrimony left a bad taste in Ennis's mouth.

If she thought that Ennis detested the idea of marriage, perhaps she felt that he would try his best to dissuade her.

I suspect that this may be only one of multiple reasons behind her apprehension...

[welshwitch]

I wonder if she knew her father wasn't up to date wiith her boyfriends and she knew she'd have to explain that no, this wasn't Troy, he was history and would have to go through all that stuff about whether she knew her own mind.

I'm also not sure whether she thought her father would approve of her marrying someone who worked on the rigs, with all that implikes about long separations, something Ennis knows all about. and Ennis had always stayed on the land - maybe she thought he's want her to marry a rancher.

Then there's all the family stufff - given what had gone on at Thanksgiving and the way Ennis had kept away from Monroe and Alma, she might have expected thee to be some awkwardness in getting Ennis to come to a function where he had to meet them in public, and in church, which Ennis has always avoided.

and any girl who's ever told her father she's getting married knows the sort of problems that can cause!

 

[jesseanne21]

Then there's all the family stufff - given what had gone on at Thanksgiving and the way Ennis had kept away from Monroe and Alma, she might have expected thee to be some awkwardness in getting Ennis to come to a function where he had to meet them in public, and in church, which Ennis has always avoided.

and any girl who's ever told her father she's getting married knows the sort of problems that can cause!
 

I agree with you, Welshwitch,  I always thought Junior made a special trip to see Ennis to make sure he came to her wedding even though it might be awkward for Ennis and Alma Sr.

[dalemidex]

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Patriot.  There are so many nuanced scenes and individual lines to ponder!

I agree with what others have said, and have another thought to toss out.

Alma Jr is in many ways the image of her father, and this is just one more way.  Ennis has a tough time talking about things like feelings, and it was probably similar for Alma Jr.

[Jennis]

I think her apprehension was more about wanting him there,then actually telling him.I think she was afraid he would say no,and he very nearly did.

Jennis.x

[Rosie]

I think that it's a bit of all the reasons above.

Ennis wasn't a man to talk about feelings, she was going to make him uncomfortable by making him talk about love and marriage. She didn't know how he felt about marriage in general. Maybe she herself was embarrassed to talk about her feelings to her dad.
Would Ennis want to meet Kurt first? Would he want Kurt to ask him for her hand? 
She didn't know if he would want to come, with Alma and Monroe being there. If he didn't want to come the conversation could be embarrassing and upsetting for both of them. She could be really hurt by his response. She wanted to have a perfect wedding with her dad there and for him to be happy for her. Telling him was the first step in finding out if she was going to get what she wanted. So I think the not knowing of what Ennis would say is what made her apprehensive about telling him.

[welshwitch]

Since the wedding is obviously settled before she comes to see Ennis, it looks as though Monroe/Alma have already given permission, if something do old-fashioed was still needed. This has rather cut Ennis out, which considering he supported Alma till she was eighteen seems pretty unforgivable. Perhaps she realises that telling him about what's a fait accompli will make it llook as if he has been almost excluded and is being invited as an afterthought.

[Rosie]

Good point welshwitch.
 It is a bit late to be telling Ennis isn't it. I don't think Alma Jr. would have thought inviting him was an afterthought though -  but Ennis could've felt that. Isn't it a shame that he has so much trouble with relationships.
When a girl tells her father that she's getting married, or gets her fiance to ask/tell lhim, it's like the final act of growing up. Making a major decision that doesn't include your parents. (Well, it was for me anyway.) I know that Alma Jr. didn't live with Ennis and to some extent that changes things but it's still a big thing to tell your dad.

[androphile]

I think all above posters make good points here, but I still haven't encountered any reason to abandon my first interpretation: Junior finds it hard to broach the topic simply because she is nervous that her Daddy is going to grill her about Kurt. Ennis may not have stayed up to date on Junior's boyfriends, but it's still clear that the two of them share a special bond. Accordingly, he's going to want to ensure that his little girl isn't about to marry someone who won't properly take care of her needs. What takes Junior by surprise and touches her (and the film audience) is that Ennis distills the expected long grilling down to a single question: "This Kurt fella. He loves you?" Giving the scene additional emotional impact is the difficulty Ennis has concealing his own deep feelings: the way he has to avert his eyes when Junior answers and his slight stammer when he speaks again. It's a wondrous scene, displaying both Ennis's love for Junior and his love for Jack; even just replaying it in my head makes me tear up.

[Rosie]

I think all above posters make good points here, but I still haven't encountered any reason to abandon my first interpretation: Junior finds it hard to broach the topic simply because she is nervous that her Daddy is going to grill her about Kurt. Ennis may not have stayed up to date on Junior's boyfriends, but it's still clear that the two of them share a special bond. Accordingly, he's going to want to ensure that his little girl isn't about to marry someone who won't properly take care of her needs. What takes Junior by surprise and touches her (and the film audience) is that Ennis distills the expected long grilling down to a single question: "This Kurt fella. He loves you?" Giving the scene additional emotional impact is the difficulty Ennis has concealing his own deep feelings: the way he has to avert his eyes when Junior answers and his slight stammer when he speaks again. It's a wondrous scene, displaying both Ennis's love for Junior and his love for Jack; even just replaying it in my head makes me tear up.
[/quote


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  What a great post androphile....If only Jack had got to see this Ennis. :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

I think all above posters make good points here, but I still haven't encountered any reason to abandon my first interpretation: Junior finds it hard to broach the topic simply because she is nervous that her Daddy is going to grill her about Kurt. Ennis may not have stayed up to date on Junior's boyfriends, but it's still clear that the two of them share a special bond. Accordingly, he's going to want to ensure that his little girl isn't about to marry someone who won't properly take care of her needs. What takes Junior by surprise and touches her (and the film audience) is that Ennis distills the expected long grilling down to a single question: "This Kurt fella. He loves you?" Giving the scene additional emotional impact is the difficulty Ennis has concealing his own deep feelings: the way he has to avert his eyes when Junior answers and his slight stammer when he speaks again. It's a wondrous scene, displaying both Ennis's love for Junior and his love for Jack; even just replaying it in my head makes me tear up.

Might I also add that this is one scene that references the timeline of the screenplay.  Troy was Alma Jr.'s boyfriend from 2 years ago -- about the same time that Ennis found out that Jack was dead (the screenplay tells us that the visit to Lightning Flat and the last trailer scene were separated by 2 years).  It would seem to me that this implied that Ennis did not keep in touch with his daughter for 2 years -- else, they stayed in touch tenuously.  This may partially account for her nervousness -- that she had to fill in so many gaps for Ennis to grasp the current situation.

[Patriot1]

Might I also add that this is one scene that references the timeline of the screenplay.  Troy was Alma Jr.'s boyfriend from 2 years ago -- about the same time that Ennis found out that Jack was dead (the screenplay tells us that the visit to Lightning Flat and the last trailer scene were separated by 2 years).  It would seem to me that this implied that Ennis did not keep in touch with his daughter for 2 years -- else, they stayed in touch tenuously.  This may partially account for her nervousness -- that she had to fill in so many gaps for Ennis to grasp the current situation.

The scene at Ennis' trailer with both he and Alma Jr. strayed considerably from the SS.

In the SS Ennis was waiting for the real estate agent to come and get the keys to the ranch which was being sold. In the movie Ennis had already moved. He is putting new numbers on his mailbox. Alma Jr. had never been there before because she says he needs more furniture. Surely she would have said this a long time ago if she had been there before. Her remark that she hadn't seen Troy for two years also indicates she might not have seen her father for that long because he was in a "mourning fog" over Jack's death. There is one other thing that suggested to me she had not seen Ennis in some time.

Ennis asked Alma Jr. what the occasion is that brings her out there. In my household if you asked what the  occasion was for the visit, you were indicating that the person never comes to see you unless there is a special reason.

But then, if she hadn't seen him in some time, how did she know where he had moved to?

[welshwitch]

No good having a logical mind when you're dealing with the screenplay, or rather with the person who put the dates on it, since they don't make sense. The ss is better in that it doesn't specify so there are no apparent inconsistencies - I don't like th eide of the two-year gap so I ignore it. I can see why they wrote the Alma in the trailer scene but it's not in th eoriginal and in a way i like the original better. There we know that Alma Jr is married and Ennis may have to live with her if he doesn't immediately get another job - and seeing him as having no home and ending up much as he was when he was dependent on his brother and  sisterin his teens makes the ending all the more poignant.

[tpe]

The scene at Ennis' trailer with both he and Alma Jr. strayed considerably from the SS.

In the SS Ennis was waiting for the real estate agent to come and get the keys to the ranch which was being sold. In the movie Ennis had already moved. He is putting new numbers on his mailbox. Alma Jr. had never been there before because she says he needs more furniture. Surely she would have said this a long time ago if she had been there before. Her remark that she hadn't seen Troy for two years also indicates she might not have seen her father for that long because he was in a "mourning fog" over Jack's death. There is one other thing that suggested to me she had not seen Ennis in some time.

Ennis asked Alma Jr. what the occasion is that brings her out there. In my household if you asked what the  occasion was for the visit, you were indicating that the person never comes to see you unless there is a special reason.

But then, if she hadn't seen him in some time, how did she know where he had moved to?

Very good points, Patriot1. 

Ennis's abrupt seclusion must have come as a surprise to Alma Jr.  He seemed to have visited his daughters regularly, but I suppose that all stopped after Jack's death.  One might guess that she would have known that he was in mourning, since she did seem to have stayed away from him during the 2 intervening years.  She must have wondered a lot though.

One other detail is strange and telling: the screenplay said that he poured cheap white wine for himself and Alma Jr. -- wine left from his time spent with Cassie.  To have kept wine in the refrigerator for 2 years would have soured it considerably, even if kept in the refrigerator.  It would have been closer to vinegar...

[welshwitch]

This is why i think the screenplay dates are wrong - i reckon he came back from Lightning Flat and the visit of alm Jr took place not long after. this makes it all the more effective - if he's not long seen Jack's home and brought the shirts back, then just had time to get the postcard and put them together - then comes this news. Difficult for alm Jr to talk to him, but much more difficult for ennis to listen to her plans for the future when he has no real future only emptiness. And that's hy I think the first thing he asks is "Does he love you?" - he's so aware of what he's lost and perhaps that he should have been much more responsive to Jack's plans and his own feelings.

If two years had passed, and given Ennis's character, I'd have expected him to have settled into a sort of stoical misery and withdrawal from society. I don;t think his being out of touch with alma's current boyfriend is specailly significant - i doubt he was ever aware of the minutiae of her teenage crushes. What's important is that now he knows that love is what matters - that's what he's realized since Jack's death, and more particularly since he's found the shirts. Now he knows Jack never stopped loving him, despite their last meeting, despite what his father says about the rancher, and now he knowsthat real love lasts.

[Patriot1]

Very good points, Patriot1. 

Ennis's abrupt seclusion must have come as a surprise to Alma Jr.  He seemed to have visited his daughters regularly, but I suppose that all stopped after Jack's death.  One might guess that she would have known that he was in mourning, since she did seem to have stayed away from him during the 2 intervening years.  She must have wondered a lot though.

One other detail is strange and telling: the screenplay said that he poured cheap white wine for himself and Alma Jr. -- wine left from his time spent with Cassie.  To have kept wine in the refrigerator for 2 years would have soured it considerably, even if kept in the refrigerator.  It would have been closer to vinegar...

That wine sure does bother me also tpe.

The screenplay clearly says it was 1981 when Ennis and Cassie last saw each other.  It further clearly states it is 1984 when he and Alma Jr. share the wine.  You are correct, that wine would have been sour by then.

The only way I can explain it is this way. The screenplay says the white wine was a legacy of Cassie. Could that mean she got Ennis to drink white wine instead of beer when she came to visit and he acquired a taste for it and still drinks it in 1984?

[tpe]

That wine sure does bother me also tpe.

The screenplay clearly says it was 1981 when Ennis and Cassie last saw each other.  It further clearly states it is 1984 when he and Alma Jr. share the wine.  You are correct, that wine would have been sour by then.

The only way I can explain it is this way. The screenplay says the white wine was a legacy of Cassie. Could that mean she got Ennis to drink white wine instead of beer when she came to visit and he acquired a taste for it and still drinks it in 1984?

This is plausible.  It's hard to imagine it any other way. 

Two years is such a long time.  I guess Alma Jr. was busy with Troy and Kurt during that time, but it is hard to imagine that she would have stayed away completely for that long.  But this seems to be the case. 

[Patriot1]

That wine sure does bother me also tpe.

The screenplay clearly says it was 1981 when Ennis and Cassie last saw each other.  It further clearly states it is 1984 when he and Alma Jr. share the wine.  You are correct, that wine would have been sour by then.

The only way I can explain it is this way. The screenplay says the white wine was a legacy of Cassie. Could that mean she got Ennis to drink white wine instead of beer when she came to visit and he acquired a taste for it and still drinks it in 1984?

This is plausible.  It's hard to imagine it any other way. 

Two years is such a long time.  I guess Alma Jr. was busy with Troy and Kurt during that time, but it is hard to imagine that she would have stayed away completely for that long.  But this seems to be the case. 

Well, we know Alma Jr. hadn't seen Ennis in at least a year. It was obvious she was telling Ennis about Kurt for the first time in 1984 and she had been seeing him for about a year.

Alma Jr. tells Ennis she was going with Troy 2 years ago. We do not know if this was the beginning, middle or end of their relationship. What we do know is that this is the last thing Ennis remembered.

Two years ago would have been 1982, the year Jack died and the year Ennis was at the Twist Ranch. If Alma Jr. had been to see Ennis after that it would have to have been in 1983 and clearly Ennis doesn't remember it. His memory of his daughter's life was stuck in 1982 before Jack died.

I agree with you tpe, it is difficult to imagine but Ennis seems to have not seen his daughter for two years. This is very odd considering they were close.

[Patriot1]

There is something else I found odd about this scene. There is no mention of Ennis walking his daughter down the isle. She simply says, "Was hoping you'd be there Daddy." Was Monroe going to walk her down the isle?  Why couldn't the writers have said, 'Was hoping you could be there to walk me down the isle Daddy.'?

[welshwitch]

It seems as though the wedding has been all arranged already and Ennis's presence is just an afterthought from alma Jr - I wonder if her mother an dMonro even considerd asking him. And after all he paid for his two daughters after the divorce and it wasn't really his fault he lost touch with them for a time, since they were in Alma's custody and after the Thanksgiving fight thee was no way he was going to have any more to do with her. It seems psychologically consistent that they would have edited Ennis out - perhaps saying that he wouldn't care and wouldn't come - after all while they were married Ennis had always made excuses to avoid social engagements. I think this visit may have been Alma Jr's own initiative.

[tpe]

There is something else I found odd about this scene. There is no mention of Ennis walking his daughter down the isle. She simply says, "Was hoping you'd be there Daddy." Was Monroe going to walk her down the isle?  Why couldn't the writers have said, 'Was hoping you could be there to walk me down the isle Daddy.'?

Good question.  He is her father, but I guess that really does not tell us much.  You are probably right here again: "Was hoping you'd be there..." may indicate that Ennis would not take an active part in the ceremonies.  Besides, he had probably quit going to Church a long time ago, which would make it awkward for him to give his daughter away in front of the congregation.

[Patriot1]

There is something else I found odd about this scene. There is no mention of Ennis walking his daughter down the isle. She simply says, "Was hoping you'd be there Daddy." Was Monroe going to walk her down the isle?  Why couldn't the writers have said, 'Was hoping you could be there to walk me down the isle Daddy.'?

Good question.  He is her father, but I guess that really does not tell us much.  You are probably right here again: "Was hoping you'd be there..." may indicate that Ennis would not take an active part in the ceremonies.  Besides, he had probably quit going to Church a long time ago, which would make it awkward for him to give his daughter away in front of the congregation.

Nah, I don't think that was it at all. I am a non-believer but If asked to take part in a wedding or funeral I would participate. My beliefs, or lack thereof don't have to affect the happiness of others.  Besides, Ennis did what was expected of him by society and giving his daughter away is what is expected of a father.

[welshwitch]

I'm a non-believer too, and if I can go into a church/chapel/synagogue/mosque i guess Ennis could too. The question is whether he'd want to be there in any capacity that put him, as it were, on public display, specially among people he evidently disliked - "That fire-and-brimstone crowd."

[Patriot1]

I'm a non-believer too, and if I can go into a church/chapel/synagogue/mosque i guess Ennis could too. The question is whether he'd want to be there in any capacity that put him, as it were, on public display, specially among people he evidently disliked - "That fire-and-brimstone crowd."

I don't see why not. He wasn't going to be there for anyone but his daughter who he loved very much. He ended up going anyway and he would certainly stand out as here father. I am sure it wasn't a 500 person wedding where he could get lost.

[tpe]

There is something else I found odd about this scene. There is no mention of Ennis walking his daughter down the isle. She simply says, "Was hoping you'd be there Daddy." Was Monroe going to walk her down the isle?  Why couldn't the writers have said, 'Was hoping you could be there to walk me down the isle Daddy.'?

Good question.  He is her father, but I guess that really does not tell us much.  You are probably right here again: "Was hoping you'd be there..." may indicate that Ennis would not take an active part in the ceremonies.  Besides, he had probably quit going to Church a long time ago, which would make it awkward for him to give his daughter away in front of the congregation.

Nah, I don't think that was it at all. I am a non-believer but If asked to take part in a wedding or funeral I would participate. My beliefs, or lack thereof don't have to affect the happiness of others.  Besides, Ennis did what was expected of him by society and giving his daughter away is what is expected of a father.

I certainly am not familiar with thwe norms of the Methodist Church is the 1960s, but in the Catholic church back then (even up to the years immediately following Vatican II) it would have been difficult (if not strictly impossible) for a person not in communion to participate in a church wedding.  But that's the Catholic church then.  I am perhaps translating my own experiences here...

[Patriot1]

There is something else I found odd about this scene. There is no mention of Ennis walking his daughter down the isle. She simply says, "Was hoping you'd be there Daddy." Was Monroe going to walk her down the isle?  Why couldn't the writers have said, 'Was hoping you could be there to walk me down the isle Daddy.'?

Good question.  He is her father, but I guess that really does not tell us much.  You are probably right here again: "Was hoping you'd be there..." may indicate that Ennis would not take an active part in the ceremonies.  Besides, he had probably quit going to Church a long time ago, which would make it awkward for him to give his daughter away in front of the congregation.

Nah, I don't think that was it at all. I am a non-believer but If asked to take part in a wedding or funeral I would participate. My beliefs, or lack thereof don't have to affect the happiness of others.  Besides, Ennis did what was expected of him by society and giving his daughter away is what is expected of a father.

I certainly am not familiar with thwe norms of the Methodist Church is the 1960s, but in the Catholic church back then (even up to the years immediately following Vatican II) it would have been difficult (if not strictly impossible) for a person not in communion to participate in a church wedding.  But that's the Catholic church then.  I am perhaps translating my own experiences here...

I was going to mention the Roman Catholic Church but then remembered that when I was a little boy I was the ring bearer in a Roman Catholic wedding and later in life I also participated in a Roman catholic wedding in which my cousin was marrying a Roman Catholic and he had been divorced. So I assumed it all depended on the individual church and the priest in that church.

[tpe]

I was going to mention the Roman Catholic Church but then remembered that when I was a little boy I was the ring bearer in a Roman Catholic wedding and later in life I also participated in a Roman catholic wedding in which my cousin was marrying a Roman Catholic and he had been divorced. So I assumed it all depended on the individual church and the priest in that church.

Yes, it all depends, this is true in practice.  It would amaze many Catholics to hear about your cousin, because strictly speaking, divorce is never recognized by the Catholic church -- even to this day.  But the Catholic Church in the US has a great deal of power and autonomy, perhaps because of its wealth and relative importance to the Curia...

[welshwitch]

I'm also not so sure that Methodists, if that what Alma Jr and her mother were (we're only assuming this because Ennis says his folks were - past tense) would have been concerned about the divorce Protestant churches have a problem with it because the Anglican Church is founded on the acts of a king who wanted an annulment, not a divorce, and consoidered himself Catholic till the day he died. However, he subsequently divorced another queen (Anne of Cleves), leaving Anglicans with the problem of how to regard divorce - one they're never quite solved, though they've tried to get round it in all sorts of ways - allowing the "innocent" but not the "guilty" part to marry again in church, eg. (One of those times where at least you know what the Cathjolic church stands for since they don't accept divorce and that's that - ish.)

 Methodists and the other Protestant groups also have ambivalent attitudes, the problems associated with which which they try to fudge. I imagine as long as Ennis was there merely as Alma Jr's father there would have been no major problem, though divorce was less common in the 60s and being divorced might have made Ennis appear "different". 

[Patriot1]

Would Alma Jr. be so crewl as to invite her father to her wedding and then have Monroe walk her down the isle?