Author Topic: Money  (Read 33346 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #60 on: Oct 16, 2006, 07:49 AM »


I wonder about health insurance.  Would Ennis have managed?  Or perhaps he would be like so many of us even today who would ignore their ailments up until the very last.

We never saw the characters sick in the movie, no?  A prolonged illness would have been quite problematic for Ennis financially.  As he ages, I am sure this would be a more serious consideration.


Offline ksxks

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Re: Money
« Reply #61 on: Oct 16, 2006, 06:44 PM »

I wonder about health insurance.  Would Ennis have managed?  Or perhaps he would be like so many of us even today who would ignore their ailments up until the very last.

We never saw the characters sick in the movie, no?  A prolonged illness would have been quite problematic for Ennis financially.  As he ages, I am sure this would be a more serious consideration.


Okay, I'm only a bit younger than Ennis and Jack, so Ennis still would not be old, right now.  But, having come from a very simple life, into our present, where life is not simple, his financial situation could be problematic.  So good thing there is Junior, and her kids presumably.  Now in their/our parents' generation, and before, even illnesses and such weren't a gigantic problem, I think.  Back in the days when a doctor would bill you, and you might die owing him, but that was that.  Now you can't do anything without insurance.  But I grew up without health insurance, my grandparents didn't have it, etc.  Life was just so much simpler then.  My point is, it's difficult to live a simple life these days even if you wanted to, when everything that supports our society is so complicated.   Then again, I suppose an old man could get by on Social Security living in a trailer outside Riverton, Wyoming, in 2006.  You think?

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #62 on: Oct 17, 2006, 07:45 AM »
Thanks kathy.  If Ennis were alive today and ailing, I am sure it would be problematic financially.  True, he would probably have to rely on his daughters...

Offline Raisa

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Re: Money
« Reply #63 on: Oct 17, 2006, 07:57 AM »
I´m trying to imagine what it would be like to live in a society without Social Insurance Institution and be afraid of becoming ill, seriously ill. Frightening!

Little bit OT, but for example:
Last spring when my old dad couldn´t cope alone in his house anymore, the town gave him a small apartment from  a block of flats designed for the elderly people. He pays the rent, but I was amazed how cheap it was. And there are always people, nurses, around to check how he is going on. Life is so unjust! Where and when you happen to born, determines you life so much.
”It is said some lives are linked across time. Connected by an ancient calling that echoes through the ages. Destiny.”

Prince of Persia
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"Jack, I swear -"  he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Money
« Reply #64 on: Oct 17, 2006, 08:39 AM »
I've tended to think of America as a rich society, though I knew it had huge areas of poverty. What I've learned through being on here is how quickly the bottom can drop out of your world in a place where there is no safety net. A lot of the provision in the UK is pretty awful but it exists. I can't imagine how someone like Ennis would cope if he grew old and unable to cope, needed expensive medical treatment, etc. I assume that the second daughter's asthma cost them money for doctor's visits and drugs - I'm asthmatic and there were drugs available for the condition by then, but like his other expenses these must have made it hard for Ennis to save.

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Money
« Reply #65 on: Oct 17, 2006, 12:07 PM »
I've tended to think of America as a rich society, though I knew it had huge areas of poverty. What I've learned through being on here is how quickly the bottom can drop out of your world in a place where there is no safety net. A lot of the provision in the UK is pretty awful but it exists. I can't imagine how someone like Ennis would cope if he grew old and unable to cope, needed expensive medical treatment, etc. I assume that the second daughter's asthma cost them money for doctor's visits and drugs - I'm asthmatic and there were drugs available for the condition by then, but like his other expenses these must have made it hard for Ennis to save.

Just an  FYI - The US has had social security and welfare programs available since 1935.  When Ennis was married to Alma (1963-1975) they could have utilized those programs  if they wanted/needed to.  A lot of people, however, considered that kind a help as a last resort - they would rather starve then go on "Welfare."

[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Money
« Reply #66 on: Oct 17, 2006, 01:24 PM »
I'd heard of Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps of course. Know about the American aversion to welfare too. Would Ennis and Alma have been eligible if he was working?

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Money
« Reply #67 on: Oct 17, 2006, 01:53 PM »
I'd heard of Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps of course. Know about the American aversion to welfare too. Would Ennis and Alma have been eligible if he was working?

Welfare benefits are determined by income and "need", so even though Ennis and Alma worked they might still have been eligible for some of those benefits.  A lot of Americans do have an aversion to welfare - the stereotypical person on welfare is seen as an urban, black, single mother, but the truth/reality is most of the people on welfare are (and always have been) white living in rural areas.

[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Money
« Reply #68 on: Oct 17, 2006, 02:47 PM »
I imagine Ennis wouldn;t have ben the sort to ask anyone or any system for help, though -you know, his "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" mode. I suppose he just accepted poverty - he'd never had real money and presumably doesn't expect to.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Money
« Reply #69 on: Oct 17, 2006, 04:05 PM »
I´m trying to imagine what it would be like to live in a society without Social Insurance Institution and be afraid of becoming ill, seriously ill. Frightening!

Little bit OT, but for example:
Last spring when my old dad couldn´t cope alone in his house anymore, the town gave him a small apartment from  a block of flats designed for the elderly people. He pays the rent, but I was amazed how cheap it was. And there are always people, nurses, around to check how he is going on. Life is so unjust! Where and when you happen to born, determines you life so much.

Actually, in the US, if you have nothing you get taken care of okay (by MediCare), and of course if you're all rich, you are taken care of, but it's the people in the middle who have the problem.  You might have to use all the funds you hoped to live on for the rest of your days, for a medical emergency.  My Dad, though, he was a jazz piano player, and lived on Social Security his later years, and lived fine, because he was eligible for a nice apartment that cost him only 1/4 of his SS income.  If he had owned a home or had other assets, he wouldn't have been taken care of.  I had to have him put in a Board & Care place, then a nursing home, but all of it was covered.  Whereas my friend's mother had to spend a huge amount monthly for her elder community place.

Anyway, Ennis doesn't have to worry -- we'll all take care of him!

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Money
« Reply #70 on: Oct 17, 2006, 04:08 PM »
I'd heard of Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps of course. Know about the American aversion to welfare too. Would Ennis and Alma have been eligible if he was working?

Welfare benefits are determined by income and "need", so even though Ennis and Alma worked they might still have been eligible for some of those benefits.  A lot of Americans do have an aversion to welfare - the stereotypical person on welfare is seen as an urban, black, single mother, but the truth/reality is most of the people on welfare are (and always have been) white living in rural areas.


They wouldn't have been eligible per se, if Ennis was working, but their children would have been.  Maybe they'd get food stamps or something.

Anyway, Ennis wouldn't have liked it, getting "welfare," but Social Security is different -- it's what you've paid into all your working life; it's not welfare.  I just hope he had jobs that paid into SS, not "under the table" jobs.  I wonder if Aguirre kept good books, and paid Workers Comp, Social Security, etc.

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #71 on: Oct 17, 2006, 04:44 PM »


Wonderful discussion here.  Thanks everybody.  Perhaps Ennis did avail of any available services.  At least we know that his daughters would probably make sure later in life that he would do so.


Offline lamusica

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Re: Money
« Reply #72 on: Oct 17, 2006, 05:41 PM »
While the US has some programs for poorer people, they leave a lot to be desired.  I know people who have worked at rather low-level jobs ( like Ennis') all their lives.  These folks have very little money paid into Social Security Administration program.  Therefore, their monthy SS allotment is small -- maybe only $600 dollars or so.  That doesn't go far when you have to pay rent, food, clothing, medicine and some doctor's bills.  Medicare doesn't kick in until age 65,so, up til then, there is very little medical assistance available.  There is some for children, but the rules are getting more and more stringent all the time and fewer poor kids are being covered by state medical insurance.  Things are bleak if you have to rely upon what the government gives you.  People who become disabled have a rough way to go.  Often, two or three years will go by after they first apply for SS disability.  During that time, they get NOTHING to live on but their own resources ( savings).  Consequently, a lot of disabled people give up and stop the qualifying process and go back to some sort of menial work and rely upon charity and extended family to get them through.  Things are not perfect with the welfare program or the SS program.  Of course, it's more than a lot of countries have, but does not provide an easy life for anyone who hasn't saved.  This is hard to get young people to understand.  The government will NOT take care of you automatically when you are old.  You have to make some provisions for yourself now while you are young and able.

     In Ennis' case, I'm sure he would have no savings.  I doubt, too, if all his jobs paid SS into the SSAd.  When he becomes an old man and can no longer work, he will have a mighty tough time of it.  Too bad Jack won't be around to help him out a little.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #73 on: Oct 18, 2006, 07:42 AM »


Good point, lamusica.  The system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and I am quite certain that such services will not spell an end to Ennis's difficulties as he grows older.

Do all of us agree that Ennis didn't seem to value money above other things in life?  True, he didn't have much of it to begin with, but I wonder if he even had the will to make more, given the opportunity.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Money
« Reply #74 on: Oct 18, 2006, 10:41 AM »
It's Jack who has and appears to enjoy the things money can buy -   a comfortable home, new pickups, clothes, new camping gear in the later years - but Ennis seems not to want or need any of these. He has such limited horizons, never sees the possibilities around him, never hopes for or expects anything other than a marginalized impoversihed life.He doesn't apparently see himself as part of the community and in my view having seen the girls once a month if that for years is not very involved with them. Alm Jr comes to seek him out, at which point it's clear he has little idea of what's going on in her life. The ss makes it clear that going to live with her will be his only and last resort if he doesn't get another job, but whether she will welcome him is another matter. Ennis is a loner and as such in his later years is going to have major problems, financial and otherwise. A more money-orientated individual might have taken advantage of Jack's offer to get money from LD, or later seen Jack as a source od financial stability, but Ennis does neither. He's not interested in money and seems to have little idea of planning for the future.

In fact other than staying alive and supporting himself, Ennis seems to have very few strong desires of any sort.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Money
« Reply #75 on: Oct 18, 2006, 05:58 PM »
It's Jack who has and appears to enjoy the things money can buy -   a comfortable home, new pickups, clothes, new camping gear in the later years - but Ennis seems not to want or need any of these. He has such limited horizons, never sees the possibilities around him, never hopes for or expects anything other than a marginalized impoversihed life.He doesn't apparently see himself as part of the community and in my view having seen the girls once a month if that for years is not very involved with them. Alm Jr comes to seek him out, at which point it's clear he has little idea of what's going on in her life. The ss makes it clear that going to live with her will be his only and last resort if he doesn't get another job, but whether she will welcome him is another matter. Ennis is a loner and as such in his later years is going to have major problems, financial and otherwise. A more money-orientated individual might have taken advantage of Jack's offer to get money from LD, or later seen Jack as a source od financial stability, but Ennis does neither. He's not interested in money and seems to have little idea of planning for the future.

In fact other than staying alive and supporting himself, Ennis seems to have very few strong desires of any sort.

Except a few high altitude f**ks a year...  And all that costs is gas for his truck, feed for the horses, the price of some whiskey...and his heart...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline Raisa

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Re: Money
« Reply #76 on: Oct 19, 2006, 03:39 AM »

Anyway, Ennis doesn't have to worry -- we'll all take care of him!

kathy


In fact other than staying alive and supporting himself, Ennis seems to have very few strong desires of any sort.

Except a few high altitude f**ks a year...  And all that costs is gas for his truck, feed for the horses, the price of some whiskey...and his heart...

kathy

Ditto!
”It is said some lives are linked across time. Connected by an ancient calling that echoes through the ages. Destiny.”

Prince of Persia
---------------------
"Jack, I swear -"  he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.

Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #77 on: Oct 19, 2006, 07:22 AM »
It's Jack who has and appears to enjoy the things money can buy -   a comfortable home, new pickups, clothes, new camping gear in the later years - but Ennis seems not to want or need any of these. He has such limited horizons, never sees the possibilities around him, never hopes for or expects anything other than a marginalized impoversihed life.He doesn't apparently see himself as part of the community and in my view having seen the girls once a month if that for years is not very involved with them. Alm Jr comes to seek him out, at which point it's clear he has little idea of what's going on in her life. The ss makes it clear that going to live with her will be his only and last resort if he doesn't get another job, but whether she will welcome him is another matter. Ennis is a loner and as such in his later years is going to have major problems, financial and otherwise. A more money-orientated individual might have taken advantage of Jack's offer to get money from LD, or later seen Jack as a source od financial stability, but Ennis does neither. He's not interested in money and seems to have little idea of planning for the future.

In fact other than staying alive and supporting himself, Ennis seems to have very few strong desires of any sort.

Except a few high altitude f**ks a year...  And all that costs is gas for his truck, feed for the horses, the price of some whiskey...and his heart...

kathy

Good points, ww and kathy.  Ennis didn't seem to run after more money and a more comfortable life.  Perhaps he though this was closed to him.

 

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Money
« Reply #78 on: Oct 19, 2006, 05:13 PM »
It's Jack who has and appears to enjoy the things money can buy -   a comfortable home, new pickups, clothes, new camping gear in the later years - but Ennis seems not to want or need any of these. He has such limited horizons, never sees the possibilities around him, never hopes for or expects anything other than a marginalized impoversihed life.He doesn't apparently see himself as part of the community and in my view having seen the girls once a month if that for years is not very involved with them. Alm Jr comes to seek him out, at which point it's clear he has little idea of what's going on in her life. The ss makes it clear that going to live with her will be his only and last resort if he doesn't get another job, but whether she will welcome him is another matter. Ennis is a loner and as such in his later years is going to have major problems, financial and otherwise. A more money-orientated individual might have taken advantage of Jack's offer to get money from LD, or later seen Jack as a source od financial stability, but Ennis does neither. He's not interested in money and seems to have little idea of planning for the future.

In fact other than staying alive and supporting himself, Ennis seems to have very few strong desires of any sort.

Except a few high altitude f**ks a year...  And all that costs is gas for his truck, feed for the horses, the price of some whiskey...and his heart...

kathy

Good points, ww and kathy.  Ennis didn't seem to run after more money and a more comfortable life.  Perhaps he though this was closed to him.

 

Ennis remained as AP wrote him and Jack in the short story  " [they were] both high school dropout country boys WITH NO PROSPECTS, BROUGHT UP TO HARD WORK AND PRIVATION, both rough-mannered, rough spoken, INURED TO THE STOIC LIFE."

 *o) sorry, but that is my favorite line in short story (I don't know why - it's just so poetic)
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2006, 05:49 PM by jesseanne21 »
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline tpe

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Re: Money
« Reply #79 on: Oct 20, 2006, 08:40 AM »
jesseanne21, why do you say that this was off-topic?  It sheds light on Ennis as far as this topic is concerned.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Money
« Reply #80 on: Oct 20, 2006, 11:27 AM »
Ennis of course accepts privation and never thinks of or expects anything else; Jack is ready in this as in everything else to try to change things, hope for a better life, not to accept that he cn never move on from where he started. Isn't this the American dream? Jack's a dreamer; Ennis isn't. He'll always be poor and always accept the fact.
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2006, 11:59 PM by welshwitch »

Offline lamusica

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Re: Money
« Reply #81 on: Oct 20, 2006, 05:36 PM »
Jessieanne21, your favorite line from the SS is beautiful.  It is this poetry within prose that makes Annie's work so grand.  Love it.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"