Topic: Money

[Patriot1]

Ennis worked. Alma worked. They had a simple home, nothing extravagant. They wore simple, maybe even thrift store clothes. They had gas, gasoline, electric and telephone to pay. They never went anywhere. Ennis owned a beat-up old truck not a new one or even recent one.

Why were they so far behind on the bills!?

[chameau]

They both smoked, Ennis drank a lot (example: the waiting scene for the reunion, endless amount of empty bottles of beer) and the jobs they had were poorly paid.  It couldn't improve after the reunion since Ennis kept ranch hand jobs poorly paid he could quit at any time to be with Jack, about this he refused to discuss a job opportunity at the power plan with Alma.  Also, Jenny had asthma and they had to pay for the doctor and the medications... The list could be long.

[welshwitch]

I guess they also had to pay medial bills for the births of the two children, one in the first year after they were married. They had no money to start married life, as far as we know; all Ennis had what what he's earned on Brokeback and he's evidently disappointed that that's a month's less than he expected. And they're paying rent. Even now it's difficult to start out, specially if you have no savings, and get a home together and have children early on in the marriage - i can't see that they're any more badly off than you'd expect, given that neither earned much and once Ennis started going off two or three times a year and giving up each job to do so they must have had periods when there was nothing at all coming in, except what Alma made working part-time in the supermarket.

[tpe]

Ennis worked. Alma worked. They had a simple home, nothing extravagant. They wore simple, maybe even thrift store clothes. They had gas, gasoline, electric and telephone to pay. They never went anywhere. Ennis owned a beat-up old truck not a new one or even recent one.

Why were they so far behind on the bills!?

Could it be that it had more to do with the fact that Ennis's cashflow was not steady, since he was not always needed at the ranch and was essentially "on-call"?

The bills were almost certainly regular expenses like rent and groceries, since I suspect that they kept a running account with the grocer and would have settled what was outstanding at regular intevals.

[welshwitch]

They also had to buy clothes and though Alma looks like a bag lady, the kids have to be dressed and have shoes and winter coats and all the rest. I can imagine that there are people now in low-paid jobs in the US - there certainly are here - who can't cope and find every unexpected expense a problem, as, for example, Ennis's brother and sister did. When the transmission went on the pickup, they couldn't afford to get it fixed, which is why Ennis's educarion came to an abrupt end, although he wanted to continue it.

[jesseanne21]

Even though the place wasn't much, the rent on their little apartment was probably really high considering what they earned.  In small towns, decent housing is always a problem.
When Alma asked if they could move to town, Ennis said "rents in town are too expensive."  I was under the impression that as long as Ennis was working on that "lonesome ranch" the rent was free.

One more thing, Ennis had two horses...and keeping horses is expensive.  In the ss, Ennis worked part-time at the Rafter B to pay for boarding his horses.  So although he was working two jobs, he only got income from one.  And, Alma was probably only working part-time and a lot of what she earned probably went for babysitters (absolutely no day-care in the 1960's). 

No matter how hard they worked they would never seem to get ahead (still true for a lot of people in 2006).

[welshwitch]

Doubly true of those working as employees on other people's land - their wages have always been low and still are. And given all the stuff about Walmart, I guess supermarket part-timers got a raw deal in the past as they do now.

[Patriot1]

Doubly true of those working as employees on other people's land - their wages have always been low and still are. And given all the stuff about Walmart, I guess supermarket part-timers got a raw deal in the past as they do now.

MY neighbor works as a cashier at an Albertdon's Market and makes $19 an hour. That is some raw deal I'd say.

[edgar]

As someone who grew up very poor in rural America in the 60s-70-s, I can say a few things. My dad worked construction, and made decent money, but it wasn't consistent. Remember at the end of the movie Ennis struggles with the decision whether to go on the roundup or go to his daughter's wedding.That sort of thing is common among people who work on an "as needed" basis.

Also, rural economic standards always lag behind more populated areas. I remember working as a dishwasher when I was sixteen for $1.50 an hour. (The minimum wage at the time was 3 or 3.15). Many many people held jobs working below minimum, and no one cared anything about it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Alma's job paid below minimum. Likewise, my dad was paid less than he would have been paid in the city or the suburbs, though above the minimum.

When you work outside in a rural area, your work time is often curtailed by weather. Let's say they were going to castrate a bunch of calves and a huge rainstorm came up. Rather than try to round up the calves in the mud, they might wait a day or two... and the workers not get paid. I remember (as an adult) when I had a job working for the city government and they sent us home one day because of a snowstorm. When I told my dad about it, he asked, "You still get paid?" Of course I did, but he had to ask to be sure.

Also, people who haven't grown up with money and without parents who are good at managing money (or no parents at all, like Ennis) haven't learned how to manage their own finances. They might be careless with paying bills and end up with late fees, etc. They might not instinctively know how to make the best choices. And, as pointed out upthread, cigarettes and beer--always more popular among the poor--certainly eat up the funds quickly.

There were and are millions of people in America living in rural poverty. Ennis and Alma are, as I see it, a realistic example.

[greenfrog]

Thank you for that insight Edgar 

[tpe]

Even though the place wasn't much, the rent on their little apartment was probably really high considering what they earned.  In small towns, decent housing is always a problem.
When Alma asked if they could move to town, Ennis said "rents in town are too expensive."  I was under the impression that as long as Ennis was working on that "lonesome ranch" the rent was free.

One more thing, Ennis had two horses...and keeping horses is expensive.  In the ss, Ennis worked part-time at the Rafter B to pay for boarding his horses.  So although he was working two jobs, he only got income from one.  And, Alma was probably only working part-time and a lot of what she earned probably went for babysitters (absolutely no day-care in the 1960's). 

No matter how hard they worked they would never seem to get ahead (still true for a lot of people in 2006).

Good points, jesseanne21.

[tpe]

Doubly true of those working as employees on other people's land - their wages have always been low and still are. And given all the stuff about Walmart, I guess supermarket part-timers got a raw deal in the past as they do now.

MY neighbor works as a cashier at an Albertdon's Market and makes $19 an hour. That is some raw deal I'd say.

This mention of walmart brought to mind something we may want to consider regarding Ennis and his family: health insurance of some sort.  Did they have any?  What was standard practice at that time and that place?

[tpe]

As someone who grew up very poor in rural America in the 60s-70-s, I can say a few things. My dad worked construction, and made decent money, but it wasn't consistent. Remember at the end of the movie Ennis struggles with the decision whether to go on the roundup or go to his daughter's wedding.That sort of thing is common among people who work on an "as needed" basis.

Also, rural economic standards always lag behind more populated areas. I remember working as a dishwasher when I was sixteen for $1.50 an hour. (The minimum wage at the time was 3 or 3.15). Many many people held jobs working below minimum, and no one cared anything about it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Alma's job paid below minimum. Likewise, my dad was paid less than he would have been paid in the city or the suburbs, though above the minimum.

When you work outside in a rural area, your work time is often curtailed by weather. Let's say they were going to castrate a bunch of calves and a huge rainstorm came up. Rather than try to round up the calves in the mud, they might wait a day or two... and the workers not get paid. I remember (as an adult) when I had a job working for the city government and they sent us home one day because of a snowstorm. When I told my dad about it, he asked, "You still get paid?" Of course I did, but he had to ask to be sure.

Also, people who haven't grown up with money and without parents who are good at managing money (or no parents at all, like Ennis) haven't learned how to manage their own finances. They might be careless with paying bills and end up with late fees, etc. They might not instinctively know how to make the best choices. And, as pointed out upthread, cigarettes and beer--always more popular among the poor--certainly eat up the funds quickly.

There were and are millions of people in America living in rural poverty. Ennis and Alma are, as I see it, a realistic example.

Very good points, edgar.  Although Ennis was spartan when it came to his way of life, I do think that he was not good at managing money or planning for the future.

As greenfrog said, thanks for the insight.

[welshwitch]

Planning for the future is pretty hard when you're on a low income. When my mother and father were first married and my father was trying to get qualifications by working at night after he'd finished the day-job - married women didn't work then so my mother had to be at home, though she'd worked and enjoyed it before they married - my mother managed the money - put aside enough for the bills in spearate places each week. Thenmy father was taken ill - he had first a duodenal then a gastric ulcer and nearly died. The owner of the company paid for his to go to the coast to convalesce but of course didn't pay for my mother, who had to go as my father was too weak to travel alone. When they came back they were totally penniless and had no food in the house. My mother went hunting around and found a ten-shilling note ( 50p, about 90c) and was conviced its appearance was a miracle. Of course they didn't pay him till he'd worked the b=next week - that's how close financial disaster could come. And there were no credit cards then...
This struck me the other day when some financial stuff appeared from a card I no longer use - to get me interested in using it again they were offering us a card each with £15,500 limit on each. We have no idea how different things were even in the sixties.

So I don't think Ennis and Alma had any way of saving - like a lot of people they just kept their heads above water if they were lucky and had no disasters.

[tpe]

Planning for the future is pretty hard when you're on a low income. When my mother and father were first married and my father was trying to get qualifications by working at night after he'd finished the day-job - married women didn't work then so my mother had to be at home, though she'd worked and enjoyed it before they married - my mother managed the money - put aside enough for the bills in spearate places each week. Thenmy father was taken ill - he had first a duadenal then a gastric ulcer and nearly dies. The owner of the company paid for his to go to the coast to convalesce but of course didn't pay for my mother, who had to go as my father was too weak to travel alone. When they came back they were totally penniless and had no food in the house. My mother went hunting around and found a ten-shilling note ( 50p, about 90c) and was conviced its appearance was a miracle. Of course they didn't pay him till he'd worked the b=next week - that's how close financial disaster could come. And there were no credit cards then...
This struck me the other day when some financial stuff appeared from a csard I no longer use - to get me interested in using it again they were offering us a card each with £15,500 limit on each. We have no idea how differnt things were even in the sixties.

So I don't think Ennis and Alma had any way of saving - like a lot of people they just kept their heads above water if they were lucky and had no disasters.

I suspect that in the later years of their marriage, it was Alma that kept things afloat.  But I also suspect that after the divorce, Ennis was able to live on whatever small amount of money he managed to earn.   Other than the pleasures of smoking and drinking, he probably had very few non-basic expenses, no?  He was poor, but I don't think he was living beyond his means (a contrast to so many people today who deal with the temptations and consequences of extended credit -- as WW has referenced in her above post.)

[welshwitch]

I also thought the amount of child support set - $250 a mionth - was a lot in 1975. Ennis clearly kept paying it so he can't have had a lot left over once he'd paid for rent, food and other essentials.

[tpe]

I also thought the amount of child support set - $250 a mionth - was a lot in 1975. Ennis clearly kept paying it so he can't have had a lot left over once he'd paid for rent, food and other essentials.

Perhaps I am not in tune with the value of money in 1975.  He did complain about the expense to Jack in the last meeting.  Although he was frugal, you can only stretch a small wage so far, I guess.

[jesseanne21]

I also thought the amount of child support set - $250 a mionth - was a lot in 1975. Ennis clearly kept paying it so he can't have had a lot left over once he'd paid for rent, food and other essentials.

Perhaps I am not in tune with the value of money in 1975.  He did complain about the expense to Jack in the last meeting.  Although he was frugal, you can only stretch a small wage so far, I guess.

Having been a child of divorced parents, chiild support payments were often not based on how much money the parents had/made, but who had the better lawyer (that's probably why there are SO MANY deadbeat dads out there).  There was no mention in the movie or short story of alimony to Alma, so Ennis may have actually gotten off kind of easy. 

[tpe]

Having been a child of divorced parents, chiild support payments were often not based on how much money the parents had/made, but who had the better lawyer (that's probably why there are SO MANY deadbeat dads out there).  There was no mention in the movie or short story of alimony to Alma, so Ennis may have actually gotten off kind of easy. 

Interesting.  If he did not have to pay alimony, then would that mean that he was "poorer" than Alma?  I doubt that Ennis would have found a better lawyer than Alma...

[jesseanne21]

Having been a child of divorced parents, chiild support payments were often not based on how much money the parents had/made, but who had the better lawyer (that's probably why there are SO MANY deadbeat dads out there).  There was no mention in the movie or short story of alimony to Alma, so Ennis may have actually gotten off kind of easy. 

Interesting.  If he did not have to pay alimony, then would that mean that he was "poorer" than Alma?  I doubt that Ennis would have found a better lawyer than Alma...

Ooops, I forgot, in the short story, it states that Alma 'divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer'  so she may not have sought alimony because she was planning to remarry soon.  I always assumed she married Monroe right after the divorce became final.  In the movie, Ennis' and Alma's divorce was granted on November 6, 1975. Then later you see Ennis at Thanksgiving dinner (late November) and Alma is obviously pregnant.  I don't think Alma would have gotten pregnant with Monroe until they were married, so I assume that the Thanksgiving dinner takes place a year or two after the divorce.

[welshwitch]

According to the dates in the ( inaccurate) screenplay, the Thanksgiving dinners take place in November 1977, which would have allowed a decent interval to elapse afte the divorce, then for Alma to marry Monroe, then get pregnant after another decent interval - all very proper. Ennis would have been paying child support for two years by this Thanksgiving but maybe if Alma knew she was going to marry Monroe as soon as was acceptable, she wouldn't have asked for alimony which Ennis would pay only for a few months.

I still think, however, that he was paying a large amount in child support - no wonder he was so impoversished after the divorce as well as before.

[edgar]

Planning for the future is pretty hard when you're on a low income. When my mother and father were first married and my father was trying to get qualifications by working at night after he'd finished the day-job - married women didn't work then so my mother had to be at home, though she'd worked and enjoyed it before they married - my mother managed the money - put aside enough for the bills in spearate places each week. Thenmy father was taken ill - he had first a duodenal then a gastric ulcer and nearly died. The owner of the company paid for his to go to the coast to convalesce but of course didn't pay for my mother, who had to go as my father was too weak to travel alone. When they came back they were totally penniless and had no food in the house. My mother went hunting around and found a ten-shilling note ( 50p, about 90c) and was conviced its appearance was a miracle. Of course they didn't pay him till he'd worked the b=next week - that's how close financial disaster could come. And there were no credit cards then...
This struck me the other day when some financial stuff appeared from a card I no longer use - to get me interested in using it again they were offering us a card each with £15,500 limit on each. We have no idea how different things were even in the sixties.

So I don't think Ennis and Alma had any way of saving - like a lot of people they just kept their heads above water if they were lucky and had no disasters.

ww: I can really relate to what you wrote. I don't know how many times when I was growing up that we had either no meat or no bread--on bad days, neither. We lived in a rural area and we did have two cows, so we usually had plenty of milk. We eventually sold the cows when some debts pressed us. Like you said, just keeping our heads above water was pretty good for us.

The story about the ten-shilling note brings back a memory as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. My mom took me and my two young siblings to the store in the little town nearby--smaller than the store Alma worked in. As we were walking down the sidewalk, I saw something blowing in the breeze. It was a ten dollar bill, folded up into a small square. I picked it up and stared at it--I had never held that much money in my hands. My mother matter-of-factly reached down and took it from me and put it in her purse. We went in the store and she bought more groceries than originally planned.

Several days (weeks?) later, I brought up the fact that I had found the money and it should be mine. My mom said, still matter-of-factly, "You ate just as much of it as the anyone else did." And that was that.

And *tpe*, about the health insurance question: No, they did not have any. Once again, this was something of a rural/urban divide at the time. Most people in rural areas, excepting those who worked for the government, had no health insurance. We had none all the time I was growing up, until my parents separated and my mom signed up for state benefits. I remember thinking it very odd that she took us kids to the doctor even though we weren't sick--just for a checkup.

[tpe]

Very interesting story, edgar -- about the 10 dollar bill.  It is strangely moving, for some reason.   I am perhaps naive, as I had never been in such a situation in my life.

"The poor you will have always." It doesn't mean that one truly understands them.   In the case of Ennis, I can imagine it being much worse -- spending a great deal of his younger days without the love of parents and having to work to survive.

[welshwitch]

Being so closely involved with the need to make money, not in a general sense but to keep his head above water and live from day to day must have a very strong effect on him. Part of Ennis's unwillingness to abandon the familiar and take the risk of setting up with Jack may stem from the precariousness of his finanacial position - money has always been in short supply and he doesn't dare jeopardize his chances of keeping on making it.

For many of us the idea of literally having no money is something we've never experienced. We are lucky. When we say "I can't afford x" what we mean often is that we choose not to buy it, and what we're talking about is a luxury anyway. When Ennis has no money, he has no money, as after the weeks on Brokeback.

[jesseanne21]

Being so closely involved with the need to make money, not in a general sense but to keep his head above water and live from day to day must have a very strong effect on him. Part of Ennis's unwillingness to abandon the familiar and take the risk of setting up with Jack may stem from the precariousness of his financial position - money has always been in short supply and he doesn't dare jeopardize his chances of keeping on making it.

For many of us the idea of literally having no money is something we've never experienced. We are lucky. When we say "I can't afford x" what we mean often is that we choose not to buy it, and what we're talking about is a luxury anyway. When Ennis has no money, he has no money, as after the weeks on Brokeback.

Something else about HAVING NO MONEY...when you are really broke (and I have been there) it literally (physically, mentally and emotionally) HURTS to NEED something/anything.  It is even more exhausting and painful to even think about just WANTING things when you really cannot believe that you will ever get them.  The way out of that, paradoxically, is to keep the thoughts of what you want in mind, but sometimes that is just too painful.

As far as Ennis is concerned, if a person is living in a basic SURVIVAL mode, where just getting through the day is a struggle, it is hard for them to envision something better or to let themselves want for more.  Ennis' comment to his daughter "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing." is very telling about his view of the world.

[welshwitch]

It's all part of the same way of thinking that leads him to say, "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it". Essentially Ennis is a stoic - he thinks he has to accept what fate sends and live with it, so he has no vision of what he might achieve. He is in this way in direct opposition to Jack.

[tpe]

Something else about HAVING NO MONEY...when you are really broke (and I have been there) it literally (physically, mentally and emotionally) HURTS to NEED something/anything.  It is even more exhausting and painful to even think about just WANTING things when you really cannot believe that you will ever get them.  The way out of that, paradoxically, is to keep the thoughts of what you want in mind, but sometimes that is just too painful.

As far as Ennis is concerned, if a person is living in a basic SURVIVAL mode, where just getting through the day is a struggle, it is hard for them to envision something better or to let themselves want for more.  Ennis' comment to his daughter "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing." is very telling about his view of the world.

I do feel that Ennis was stoic more by necessity, and not by choice.  I think he felt that he really had no choice and that his state was preordained by the tragedies during his childhood.

[jesseanne21]

Something else about HAVING NO MONEY...when you are really broke (and I have been there) it literally (physically, mentally and emotionally) HURTS to NEED something/anything.  It is even more exhausting and painful to even think about just WANTING things when you really cannot believe that you will ever get them.  The way out of that, paradoxically, is to keep the thoughts of what you want in mind, but sometimes that is just too painful.

As far as Ennis is concerned, if a person is living in a basic SURVIVAL mode, where just getting through the day is a struggle, it is hard for them to envision something better or to let themselves want for more.  Ennis' comment to his daughter "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing." is very telling about his view of the world.

I do feel that Ennis was stoic more by necessity, and not by choice.  I think he felt that he really had no choice and that his state was preordained by the tragedies during his childhood.

TPE - I think you're right...Ennis felt he had no choice and his state was preordained.  But, I think it was more than just the tragedies of his childhood that caused him to think that way. 

Over the weekend I saw a advanced showing of the documentary 21-Up America (a follow-up of 7-Up America and 14-Up America, which was based on the brilliant British series 7-UP, 14, 21, 28, 35 and 42-UP) by Michael Apted.  The British series opened with the comment "Give me a boy at the age of 7 and I will show you the man."

A frightening comment (TO ME) made in the American version is that according to psychologists 80% of a persons personality and beliefs about themselves and life are set by the age of 7 and most people do not change (question) those beliefs. That is why most people basically live the same types of lives that their parents lived.

I do not think that Ennis felt he had no choice, I just think that Ennis, unlike Jack, never questioned his beliefs or where they came from...he simply accepted things the way they were and believed they could not change.

[welshwitch]

This is why the Jesuits say, or used to, "Give me a child till he is seven and he is ours for ever".

[tpe]

TPE - I think you're right...Ennis felt he had no choice and his state was preordained.  But, I think it was more than just the tragedies of his childhood that caused him to think that way. 

Over the weekend I saw a advanced showing of the documentary 21-Up America (a follow-up of 7-Up America and 14-Up America, which was based on the brilliant British series 7-UP, 14, 21, 28, 35 and 42-UP) by Michael Apted.  The British series opened with the comment "Give me a boy at the age of 7 and I will show you the man."

A frightening comment (TO ME) made in the American version is that according to psychologists 80% of a persons personality and beliefs about themselves and life are set by the age of 7 and most people do not change (question) those beliefs. That is why most people basically live the same types of lives that their parents lived.

I do not think that Ennis felt he had no choice, I just think that Ennis, unlike Jack, never questioned his beliefs or where they came from...he simply accepted things the way they were and believed they could not change.

How interesting.  One can almost argue that the brain is indeed like a neural network that hardens after a period of conditioning and cannot unlearn what has been learned on the onset.  Quite provocative.

Whether this is entirely true or not, I do think there is a grain of truth to it.  Certain societal beliefs do seem to solidify as we get older.  The case of Ennis should not really surprise us, even if we may consider his case to be extreme...

Sorry, this is getting to be a bit OOT.  Back to the question of money...