Author Topic: Ennis' Fierce and Possessive Love for Jack - Spoilers (Read 77311 times)

tpe · « **Reply #90 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 07:07 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 13, 2006, 07:02 AM

It also shows that Jack has given some thought about these "unspoken things" to me .When he says "I did once" he is nodding as if he wanted to answer Ennis question { better idea? }. to let Ennis know he's had a better idea for awhile now. I think this contributes to Ennis jealousy and rage. His demeanor when He said that was daring to Ennis. IMHO.

I agree. It then becomes a mixture of possessiveness aggravated by guilt.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #91 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 07:33 AM »

Correct.You say it so well. Another scene when E nnis acts possesive is when he fixes the tent , then he fixes the herder situation for Jack. Tries to tell Jack about the "low starle point" of the horse. (for his saftey),Fixes the food situation,EVEN FIXED JACK'TRUCK! All for his little darlin.

welshwitch · « **Reply #92 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 10:23 AM »

Those I think may come from his opinion ( justified, in my view) that he's more competent than Jack, as a judge of horses/horseman, herdsmand, etc.

The last scene is full of all the repressed anger of many years; it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility that Ennis has at least sensed that Jack may not be entirely - what's the word? not monogamous, for sure - faithful to him? - before this. In the ss AP uses the word "admissions" whichs suggests that they've told one another things about their lives apart from each other that might be difficult to accept.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #93 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 04:47 PM »

Through these actions Ennis is saying how much he cares for his love. "He is mine I must take care of him" "want him to be happy, safe,content with me. Another reason he so hurt when he found out about Mexico. Ennis felt Jack belonged to him....AND ONLY HIM.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #94 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:22 PM »

Look carefully at the last argument scene...Ennis was CRYING when he had his back to Jack. You see a tear fall when he turns around, but he was crying before he turned around

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #95 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:42 PM »

Yep, I've noticed that too, he's definitely crying, and so am I usually :\'(

Something that got me about this scene the other night is that Ennis, for all his anger and hurt, is actually quite accepting of Jack's "infidelity". Whether you agree or not that Jack was wrong to sleep with other men (personally, I don't blame him, but that's just my opinion), most people in Ennis's place would've ended the relationship right there (and if, as has been suggested, Ennis was looking for a way out of it,this was the perfect excuse), but Ennis doesn't finish it, he doesn't even threaten to finish it if it happens again, he just tells Jack he never wants to know about it, so he's really giving Jack the go-ahead to carry on doing it, so long as he, Ennis, doesn't find out. Whether Jack would've carried on, and whether he would've told Ennis the truth if he asked him, is another matter, but it shows how much Jack meant to Ennis, that he could hurt him so badly, but he would rather turn a blind eye to it and forgive him, than be without him.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #96 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:45 PM »

well said, Crimsonsky.

I just love this movie and all the comments

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #97 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 12:57 PM »

keren_b · « **Reply #98 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 01:08 PM »

I'm not sure Ennis is accepting of Jack's "infidelity" - not wanting to know because it's too hard for him to handle is not the same as accepting - I think he doesn't want to know because he can't accept it. But one thing is sure - just as Jack couldn't quit Ennis, Ennis couldn't quit Jack. Even after knowing he went to Mexico and after telling him he couldn't stand it anymore, he still sent Jack the last postcard and wanted to meet him in Pine Creek. Ennis might say "let me be" but he can't go on without Jack, he knows that.

There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?

welshwitch · « **Reply #99 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 01:09 PM »

Love suffereth long...beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

christie wood · « **Reply #100 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 03:02 PM »

Quote from: keren_b on Jul 15, 2006, 01:08 PM

There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?

What a great question, Keren. I can't believe I've never really thought about what the exact reason was for Ennis' tears! I've always put it down to the whole emotional experience between them at that moment. But now you've got me thinking about it, because when Jack says to Ennis "well try this one, and I'll say it just once", Ennis is all bullish and cold towards Jack, trying to prove to Jack that whatever he had to say to him wouldnt affect him. How wrong he was! If I'm right, Ennis starts to crumble emotionally when Jack says "you measure the short lease you keep me on..." as he turns away from Jack, but obviously still listening to what he was saying. It must have been hard to hear, but Jack needed to say those things to him. I think Ennis must have finally realised what the pain of constant separation was doing to Jack, which in turn was killing him too. :\'( :\'( :\'(

gimmejack · « **Reply #101 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 04:06 PM »

Aintfoolin, I think the "better idea" Jack was talking about when he said "I did once" is the part about when he asked him to start a cow and calf operation and have a ranch together, way back when they were under the stars together and Ennis never looked so in love. Jack is going way back here on this one! I'm not sure, but from reading your last post, it seems as though you may not have gathered that that is what he meant with the "I did once" comment. If I am wrong, I apologize.

IMO, the possessiveness was always an unspoken thing. Jack did have experience with other men. He was adamant that he was not queer from the beginning. I think he felt he was forced to hide that fact from Ennis or else Ennis may have been scared off. Ennis was comfortable with Jack because that was their little private world, their lifelong "one shot deal". For Jack of course, he was not exclusively Eniss' as Ennis was his.

Finding out otherwise in their last scene together, Ennis just snapped about "all them things he doesn't know", lashing out at Jack's sexuality in that moment...Boys like you. For all Ennis knew, it was their little one shot deal and they both were not "boys like that". That's where the years of betrayal hit him...and all these things combined, Ennis decided that he just couldn't stand it no more. To me though, that was said out of frustration because IMO Ennis was coming around.

"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)

tpe · « **Reply #102 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 04:32 PM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 15, 2006, 04:06 PM

Aintfoolin, I think the "better idea" Jack was talking about when he said "I did once" is the part about when he asked him to start a cow and calf operation and have a ranch together, way back when they were under the stars together and Ennis never looked so in love. Jack is going way back here on this one! I'm not sure, but from reading your last post, it seems as though you may not have gathered that that is what he meant with the "I did once" comment. If I am wrong, I apologize.

IMO, the possessiveness was always an unspoken thing. Jack did have experience with other men. He was adamant that he was not queer from the beginning. I think he felt he was forced to hide that fact from Ennis or else Ennis may have been scared off. Ennis was comfortable with Jack because that was their little private world, their lifelong "one shot deal". For Jack of course, he was not exclusively Eniss' as Ennis was his.

Finding out otherwise in their last scene together, Ennis just snapped about "all them things he doesn't know", lashing out at Jack's sexuality in that moment...Boys like you. For all Ennis knew, it was their little one shot deal and they both were not "boys like that". That's where the years of betrayal hit him...and all these things combined, Ennis decided that he just couldn't stand it no more. To me though, that was said out of frustration because IMO Ennis was coming around.

"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)

Thanks gimmejack. I do agree that Jack was referring to the "sweet life" when he said "I did once".

Perhaps Ennis was comming around. I don't know. I wish this is indeed the case...

When it hurts, you know that you truly love.

welshwitch · « **Reply #103 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 05:30 PM »

Love and pain are intimately linked; this scene demonstrates that. Perhaps out of this pain, and Ennis's realisation of what was happening to them both, somethng constructive might have come, but never had the chance. I'm sort of uneasy about the word " possessive" - there's a sense in which you wnat to posses the one you love, merge with them, become one - the other sense smacks too much of selfishness for me.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #104 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 06:14 PM »

Quote from: keren_b on Jul 15, 2006, 01:08 PM

I'm not sure Ennis is accepting of Jack's "infidelity" - not wanting to know because it's too hard for him to handle is not the same as accepting - I think he doesn't want to know because he can't accept it. But one thing is sure - just as Jack couldn't quit Ennis, Ennis couldn't quit Jack. Even after knowing he went to Mexico and after telling him he couldn't stand it anymore, he still sent Jack the last postcard and wanted to meet him in Pine Creek. Ennis might say "let me be" but he can't go on without Jack, he knows that.

There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?

Maybe "accepting" was the wrong word to use, I'm not sure what the right word is that I'm looking for, "resigned" maybe...Ahdunno...

But what I mean is essentially what you said, that Ennis knows he can't leave Jack, so even finding out that he's been with other men isn't enough to even consider breaking up with him, so he has to find a way to deal with it, which is to just sweep it under the carpet. Most people would just walk away, or at least seriously consider it, and make it clear they wouldn't tolerate it happening again, but Ennis doesn't seem to even consider it, despite how hurt, angry and betrayed he feels.You're right to say that he doesn't want to know about it cause he can't handle it,but I think it's also because he knows it would mean the end of him and Jack,I really believe he wasn't joking, he would've literally killed Jack if he'd known all the details, or at best he would've had to walk away from him for good, and neither of those was an option. Hope you get what I mean

As for your question, I totally agree, I think Ennis realised where the whole conversation was going as soon as Jack says "I did once", that's where he turns it on to Jack by asking about Mexico, but it kind of backfires on him when Jack not only admits going to Mexico, but doesn't even show any remorse, and tells him the reasons why. I think Ennis realises that it would have never come to that if things had been different, and he's crying partly out of guilt for the pain he's Jack put through, and partly out of his own sorrow for the life they could've had,if only they'd done things differently :\'(

gimmejack · « **Reply #105 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 07:11 PM »

"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)

Quote

Thanks gimmejack. I do agree that Jack was referring to the "sweet life" when he said "I did once".

Perhaps Ennis was comming around. I don't know. I wish this is indeed the case...

When it hurts, you know that you truly love.

Yes, hurt and love...that's when we know were alive

aintfoolin · « **Reply #106 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 03:27 AM »

Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.

keren_b · « **Reply #107 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 07:20 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 16, 2006, 03:27 AM

Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.

Umm, I have to disagree with you on this one. If that was Jack's intention, why was he talking in a past tense? Ennis asks him "you got a better idea?" and Jack replys "I did once". if his better idea is to find someone else, then why is he talking in the past tense? past tense implys that he once had an idea, but given up on it by now. So, IMO, by saying "I did once" Jack refers to his idea to ranch up together with Ennis, have a little cow & calf operation and live a sweet life, only he's given up on this idea by now because he was rejected by Ennis so many times he realized it isn't going to happen.

NoReins · « **Reply #108 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 07:24 AM »

Yeah, I agree keren - "I did once" is a reference to the "sweet life" that Jack proposed way back in 1967. Ennis wouldn't have had to quit jobs or fight for time off to get together with Jack if he had taken Jack up on that and they'd had that little cow and calf operation.

Breaks my heart, that. If only.....

gimmejack · « **Reply #109 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 07:40 AM »

Like most of Jack's ideas, never come to pass.......no such sweet life :\'(

christie wood · « **Reply #110 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 05:59 AM »

Quote from: keren_b on Jul 16, 2006, 07:20 AM

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 16, 2006, 03:27 AM
Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.

Umm, I have to disagree with you on this one. If that was Jack's intention, why was he talking in a past tense? Ennis asks him "you got a better idea?" and Jack replys "I did once". if his better idea is to find someone else, then why is he talking in the past tense? past tense implys that he once had an idea, but given up on it by now. So, IMO, by saying "I did once" Jack refers to his idea to ranch up together with Ennis, have a little cow & calf operation and live a sweet life, only he's given up on this idea by now because he was rejected by Ennis so many times he realized it isn't going to happen.

I totally agree with you Keren. I always thought "I did once" was in reference to his desire for his sweet life with Ennis. And Ennis knew that too, IMO. :\'( :\'(

aintfoolin · « **Reply #111 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 03:23 PM »

I still think Jack was trying to tell Ennis he'd been thinkin about someone else to share his life with cuz Ennis immeditly launches in with the "you been to Mexico line indicating to me that Ennis is suspicious about Jack's fidelity.Ennis is threatened by this and as most of the time when Ennis this way he gets violent or in this case threatens Jack with vilolence if he ever found out for sure that Jack was Sleeping around on him.

gimmejack · « **Reply #112 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 09:22 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 19, 2006, 03:23 PM

I still think Jack was trying to tell Ennis he'd been thinkin about someone else to share his life with cuz Ennis immeditly launches in with the "you been to Mexico line indicating to me that Ennis is suspicious about Jack's fidelity.Ennis is threatened by this and as most of the time when Ennis this way he gets violent or in this case threatens Jack with vilolence if he ever found out for sure that Jack was Sleeping around on him.

Hand in hand it all goes...The pain and frustration Jack held in could no longer be restrained. Jack was reminding Ennis that he once had a sweet life all planned out for them, ("I DID ONCE") now he has lots of things that Ennis would rather not know about hanging over him, yes including other men. Ennis quickly put 2 and 2 together about Mexico.

welshwitch · « **Reply #113 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 01:41 AM »

And it's only after this that Ennis shows the sort of rage he exhibited with the bikers, or with Alma at Thanksgiving - when he goes up to Jack it's almost as if he's going to attack him as he did them. The rage, IMO, comes of knowing that Jack has gone looking for other men and that he's not the only man in Jack's life. Lureen doesn't concern him because at some deep level he knows she's no threat and could never take Jack away from him. In fact in a way Jack is safely protected by being married to her, as far as Ennis is concerned.

christie wood · « **Reply #114 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 03:05 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 01:41 AM

And it's only after this that Ennis shows the sort of rage he exhibited with the bikers, or with Alma at Thanksgiving - when he goes up to Jack it's almost as if he's going to attack him as he did them. The rage, IMO, comes of knowing that Jack has gone looking for other men and that he's not the only man in Jack's life. Lureen doesn't concern him because at some deep level he knows she's no threat and could never take Jack away from him. In fact in a way Jack is safely protected by being married to her, as far as Ennis is concerned.

Thats a really interesting point welshwitch, I'd never really thought of that aspect of Jack's marriage to Lureen, but I think you are right. As long as Jack was married to Lureen, he would always be there, always waiting and longing to see Ennis again, the only thing that would keep him going. And yes, Lureen was never a threat to Ennis because Jack had offered to leave her ever since their reunion, so Ennis knew that the marraige was just a charade, but that was reassuring to Ennis. Its ironic though isnt it, that Jack stayed married to Lureen all that time, even though he would have given that up in a second if Ennis had agreed to that "sweet life", and yet when Ennis got divorced, it made no difference to their situation. I wonder why Jack never got divorced anyway, regardless of whether Ennis wanted to commit to Jack.

welshwitch · « **Reply #115 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:33 AM »

I assumed it was out of inertia - what would be the point? He had a home, a wife ( of sorts) and a son, plus a job from which he couldn't be removed ( if LD could have got rid of him he's have done it in a heartbeat); his marriage is a sort of protective smokescreen and lets him get away to see Jack without causing comment. Going off on a fishing trip with an old buddy wouldn;t have caused the good old boys much grief. If he dovirced Lureen he's be on his own and more vulnerable, and since Enn is, even when divorced, isn;t about to commit to him permanently there was no compelling reason to do it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #116 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:50 AM »

I agree. the only thing that would compell Jack to divorce Lureen would be Ennis said " Comon let's go create that sweet life that you want right now!" Jack does use his marriage as a smokescreen, just as Ennis tried to do, I ask the question: Why did Jack"s marriage hang together and Ennis's did'nt?

welshwitch · « **Reply #117 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:07 AM »

IMO, because Lureen was independently wealthy, or at least comfortable off, and din't want or need anything other than material things, which she had. Jack is a sort of add-on, as he appears in the scene after Bobby is born, and maybe a necessary counterweight to her father's dominance, as in the Thanksgiving scene. Jack is also handsome, fits in with her social circle, backs her up over the treatment of Bobby,is a good salesman - if she divorced him she would have to go a long way to find someone else who embodied all those things. He doesn't cause any trouble and when he goes off, apart from losing things and fussing, at least goes off to do something acceptable.

Crucially too Lureen doesn't KNOW about Jack and Ennis - she may suspect but she has no evidence. Alma does. Alma also resents being badly off and having no social life with a husband who periodically goes off withput her, who is taciturn, capable of violence and even if he's a good father quite prepared to put his own interests before his family's - how else would you see his refusal to get a better more stable job?

It all comes down to economics.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #118 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:30 AM »

So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?

NoReins · « **Reply #119 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:53 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 20, 2006, 06:30 AM

So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?

I don't think that's what Welshwitch was saying. I think she was saying that Jack stays married because it's a smokescreen - and Lureen has no reason to divorce him because she doesn't know about him and Ennis and she has no need to divorce him on any other grounds.

I agree with whoever said that the only reason for Jack to ask for a divorce would be if Ennis finally came round - you bet he'd ask pretty damn quick if that had happened.