Topic: Riverton? How did Jack know?

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I feel the same way.  At that point, Jack would have made any excuse to re-establish contact with Ennis. 

In spite of his own hopes, I think that Jack didn't expect the intensity of his reception.  After that, the ruse really didn't seem to matter...

Yes,I agree in that too...The excuse was the least important,if this meant an approachment to Ennis.However,I also agree in that Jack didn't expect having such a passionate and warm reception on Ennis side,even if he surely had dreamt about this many times.

[tpe]

Yes,I agree in that too...The excuse was the least important,if this meant an approachment to Ennis.However,I also agree in that Jack didn't expect having such a passionate and warm reception on Ennis side,even if he surely had dreamt about this many times.

He must have expected a reasonable chance of a warm reception, given all the trouble he must have gone through locating Ennis and driving all the way from Texas. 

In fact, I really feel that Jack really didn't have any other purpose being in Wyoming but to try to hook up with Ennis.  Jack's parents up at LF would have been convenient as an excuse -- and in case Ennis's reception was not to his liking.  He could have just gone on to LF had things not worked out.  In any case, one would have expected him to bring Bobby (and perhaps Lureen) to meet his folks, if that was indeed a reason for going up to Wyoming.

[myprivatejack]

Of course,I suppose that the only purpose Jack had by travelling to Riverton is trying to obtain "something" of Ennis.He liked to take risks so,as we say here,"he already had the no,so he was going to look for the yes"...In spite of this,I keep on thinking that this reception was a surprise for him; and a revelation too,because in this way he knew for sure that the men he loved,loved him back...

[tpe]

Risks Jack certainly did take.    But no matter how calculating Jack was regarding the reunion, I also feel that Ennis's reception went way beyond his wildest calculations.  I even imagine a more careful and calculated "seduction"...  But clearly, Ennis was in no need of such a thing.  We're a "long" way off from FNIT...

[myprivatejack]

Risks Jack certainly did take.    But no matter how calculating Jack was regarding the reunion, I also feel that Ennis's reception went way beyond his wildest calculations.  I even imagine a more careful and calculated "seduction"...  But clearly, Ennis was in no need of such a thing.  We're a "long" way off from FNIT...

Yes,it's true; I also had imagined a seduction,more or less long and elaborated,by Jack's side.But in this case,it's also true the phrase"in the distance,love grows"...

[tpe]

Yes,it's true; I also had imagined a seduction,more or less long and elaborated,by Jack's side.But in this case,it's also true the phrase"in the distance,love grows"...

And time and distance makes all too clear how we all truly feel -- no matter how much we would want to suppress it.

[myprivatejack]

And time and distance makes all too clear how we all truly feel -- no matter how much we would want to suppress it.

Time and distance,as in Ennis after four years of separation.But also,unluckily,being before what has already no solution-as in Ennis after Jack's death-makes us realise how we all truly feel.With a strenght greater than when there was still a possibility more of the times;Ennis denied himself,Jack and their love so many times,to realise that "this thing" was love when there was too late to tell Jack it was time to change and face the truth... :\'(

[tpe]

Nonetheless, the new beginning in Riverton seemed so full of promise and hope -- especially to Jack, who probably didn't know what to exacpet, after the 4 years when so much had happened to the  2 of them.  Ennis's reception was like a promise -- a promise that Jack tried to coax into realization for the next 20 years or so... 

[rimasworld]

Nonetheless, the new beginning in Riverton seemed so full of promise and hope -- especially to Jack, who probably didn't know what to exacpet, after the 4 years when so much had happened to the  2 of them.  Ennis's reception was like a promise -- a promise that Jack tried to coax into realization for the next 20 years or so... 

and ennis' reception also sealed his own fate so to speak, a silent declaration of devotion that could never let jack completely go again.

[tpe]

That's true.  It's a pity that the grip of fear kept the promise in abeyance for the remainder of Jack's life.  Is it coincidence that the last words we heard from Ennis in the movie is a promise?

[myprivatejack]

A promise that,unluckily,he was never able to keep being Jack alive; and less still,to say out loud.Maybe,he was never able to realise the power of the feelings that made him express this promise.

[rimasworld]

That's true.  It's a pity that the grip of fear kept the promise in abeyance for the remainder of Jack's life.  Is it coincidence that the last words we heard from Ennis in the movie is a promise?

ennis saying that promise to the self made shrine for his jack. trying to give him something in death he was never able to in life. was that promise to always be faithful until ennis himself died? guess that's up to every one's interpretation.

[tpe]

ennis saying that promise to the self made shrine for his jack. trying to give him something in death he was never able to in life. was that promise to always be faithful until ennis himself died? guess that's up to every one's interpretation.

Wonderfully put, rimasworld.  And yes, the final promise is indeed open to interpretation.  I think it was meant to be so.

[athena0204]

I'm sure that if Jack could have found Ennis sooner he would have. He never give up till he found him again. And Ennis had clearly been hoping that somehow Jack would find him, his reaction to being reuinted with Jack again says it all.

[tpe]

The interesting thing about Ennis is that he seemed to have sent mixed signals.  This is understandable withing the greater context of his won individual/internal conflicts.  Jack tried, I think, to put the past behind him -- the way he understood Ennis half-wanted them to do. 

But Jack was perceptive enough to realize when something just didn't work  -- and rather than stand it, he just felt that he had to fix it.  In spite of the 4-year lag, his deciding to re-establish contact with Ennis was -- in a perverse way -- "timely".  When he resolved to find Ennis, it was with a firm realization that nothing else would work.

[athena0204]

I believe they were always thinking about each other during the four years they were apart. I don't think Jack would ever be able to not try and find Ennis. Maybe Jack was worried that Ennis, now having married Alma and settled down into the life that was expected pf him, would be too afraid to see him again and thus refuse to meet him again, but Jack was willing to take that chance. Jack wouldn't let anything get in the way of finding Ennis again, he was resolved to do so. As for Ennis, of course his fear wouldn't allow him to actively go looking for Jack during that time, but at their reunion it's clear to see that Ennis had been waiting for Jack all that time. He left it up to Jack to find him, almost like he knew Jack would eventually find him, knowing Jack's personality, knowing his determination, he knew it would only be a matter of time.

[tpe]

Well, we should note that Jack did go back to Aguirre the following summer in the hope that Ennis would have changed his mind.  Ennis's absence probably convinced Jack that he had lost him for good -- and perhaps the move to Texas was an attempt to forget Ennis and start afresh.

I agree that both of them throught about each other during the 4 years.  It is clear from some of the scenwes that this was indeed the case.  But I also think that both made a concerted effort to try to forget -- and Jack certainly realized that he just COULDN'T. 

[athena0204]

Well, we should note that Jack did go back to Aguirre the following summer in the hope that Ennis would have changed his mind.  Ennis's absence probably convinced Jack that he had lost him for good -- and perhaps the move to Texas was an attempt to forget Ennis and start afresh.

I agree that both of them throught about each other during the 4 years.  It is clear from some of the scenwes that this was indeed the case.  But I also think that both made a concerted effort to try to forget -- and Jack certainly realized that he just COULDN'T. 

I believe during the four years the years they were apart, they were just lying themselves if they thought they would forget. It's clear without a doubt that they had been thinking of each other constantly during that time. They tried to concentrate and absorb themselves in other things, but of course it was to no avail, they were fooling themselves if they thought they could actually forget. It was merely them distracting themselves with other things in their lives, Jack going to Texas, and Ennis marrying Alma and such, they tried to live the lives that were expected of them, but of course their souls and minds were always with each other. Ennis's reply to Jack's first postcard "You bet" and the way he goes to the post office to send it, anyone can clearly see this is the first time Ennis has been happy in those four years. Later it's evidenced again when Jack pulls up in his truck and Ennis had been sitting there waiting for him all day, like an eager child, then he suddenly breaks out into smile and skips down the stairs. That's definitely the most excited he'd been in four years, and Alma saw that. I bet it was the first time she'd seen him so excited about something in his life, and it took her by surprise that something could actually make Ennis feel that way. Anyway, the point is, that each one must have felt it was only a matter of time before they were reunited. Jack had probably been looking for a way to find Ennis the whole time. And from Ennis looking up at the sky and being thankful, it's clear to see that Ennis had been hoping for this the whole time too.

[tpe]

Ironically, I think that the 4 years of separation was "necessary" for them to realize how much they really needed to be with each other -- even for a few days in a year.  But I think that psychologically, knowing that they were "in touch" with each other mattered a great deal.  It was think knowledge that probably kept them going for the next 20 years, when they rarely saw each other, but knew that the other was potentially "within reach".

[athena0204]

Ironically, I think that the 4 years of separation was "necessary" for them to realize how much they really needed to be with each other -- even for a few days in a year.  But I think that psychologically, knowing that they were "in touch" with each other mattered a great deal.  It was think knowledge that probably kept them going for the next 20 years, when they rarely saw each other, but knew that the other was potentially "within reach".

Well said. Yes, it was knowing that they would see each other again and looking forward to it, thinking about each other, and the last time they had been together and eagerly waiting for when they would be together again that kept them going, it gave them something to live for and made their lives apart much more bearable.

[tpe]

Well said. Yes, it was knowing that they would see each other again and looking forward to it, thinking about each other, and the last time they had been together and eagerly waiting for when they would be together again that kept them going, it gave them something to live for and made their lives apart much more bearable.

Would be too much to say that the long stretches when they didn't see each other perhaps also "helped" their love to be more resilient?  It must have taught them the value of patience, if nothing else!

[jedibarrister]

Anyway, the point is, that each one must have felt it was only a matter of time before they were reunited. Jack had probably been looking for a way to find Ennis the whole time. And from Ennis looking up at the sky and being thankful, it's clear to see that Ennis had been hoping for this the whole time too.

Which explains Ennis' handy lie about Jack being a "fishing buddy".  Wouldn't Alma know all of Ennis' friends by now?  She asked if he was a former co-worker...someone she wouldn't be expected to know.  But if Alma and Ennis were engaged at 19, and Jack pops up at 23, when would Ennis have met Jack and gone fishing and Alma not know?  When Ennis was 16 or 17?  And where was Jack all these years?  He clearly had a story cooked up in case Jack showed up one day...a reason that would give them time alone and away from civilization.

[tpe]

Which explains Ennis' handy lie about Jack being a "fishing buddy".  Wouldn't Alma know all of Ennis' friends by now?  She asked if he was a former co-worker...someone she wouldn't be expected to know.  But if Alma and Ennis were engaged at 19, and Jack pops up at 23, when would Ennis have met Jack and gone fishing and Alma not know?  When Ennis was 16 or 17?  And where was Jack all these years?  He clearly had a story cooked up in case Jack showed up one day...a reason that would give them time alone and away from civilization.

Interesting point, jedibarrister. 

I think that Ennis would have probably told Alma that Jack moved to Texas much earlier than he did.  Also, Ennis wasn't originally from Riverton, correct?  The whole period prior to Riverton must have been unknown to Alma.  I am assuming of course that Ennis's association with Alma only started when he moved to Riverton.

[athena0204]

Which explains Ennis' handy lie about Jack being a "fishing buddy".  Wouldn't Alma know all of Ennis' friends by now?  She asked if he was a former co-worker...someone she wouldn't be expected to know.  But if Alma and Ennis were engaged at 19, and Jack pops up at 23, when would Ennis have met Jack and gone fishing and Alma not know?  When Ennis was 16 or 17?  And where was Jack all these years?  He clearly had a story cooked up in case Jack showed up one day...a reason that would give them time alone and away from civilization.

True, Alma and Ennis had known each other at a young age, and Alma probably already knew that Ennis had lived with his brother and sister in Sage, before coming to Riverton after they were married. That wouldn't really leave a time space for this "fishing buddy" Jack. When would he have met him? I'm sure Alma would know any of Ennis's aquaintances or co-workers at that point. And Ennis being his introverted self, Alma probably knew he didn't have many friends either. When Ennis says the fishing buddy line, there is not even hesitation, as if he's thinking of what's to say to cover up who Jack really is. It seems like Ennis has already anticipated the day he would have to come up with this story and he's already rehearsed this line in his head for when the day finally came. It clearly shows how much he he'd been waiting for Jack to show up in his life again and for them to pick up where they left off. He had been hoping for and anticipating that day for the past four years, and when it finally arrived, he was ready.

[tpe]

True, Alma and Ennis had known each other at a young age, and Alma probably already knew that Ennis had lived with his brother and sister in Sage, before coming to Riverton after they were married. That wouldn't really leave a time space for this "fishing buddy" Jack. When would he have met him? I'm sure Alma would know any of Ennis's aquaintances or co-workers at that point. And Ennis being his introverted self, Alma probably knew he didn't have many friends either. When Ennis says the fishing buddy line, there is not even hesitation, as if he's thinking of what's to say to cover up who Jack really is. It seems like Ennis has already anticipated the day he would have to come up with this story and he's already rehearsed this line in his head for when the day finally came. It clearly shows how much he he'd been waiting for Jack to show up in his life again and for them to pick up where they left off. He had been hoping for and anticipating that day for the past four years, and when it finally arrived, he was ready.

This may be an aside, but I had a sense that Ennis's comment about Jack as a fishing buddy sounded spontaneous to me.  I had wondered if Ennis was really in the habit of fishing.  Wouldn't it strike Alma as strange if Ennis never really fished the whole time they were married?  Then again, people have been known to give up a hobby or an activity, only to do it again after years of inactivity...

[athena0204]

This may be an aside, but I had a sense that Ennis's comment about Jack as a fishing buddy sounded spontaneous to me.  I had wondered if Ennis was really in the habit of fishing.  Wouldn't it strike Alma as strange if Ennis never really fished the whole time they were married?  Then again, people have been known to give up a hobby or an activity, only to do it again after years of inactivity...

I also found it kind of odd that the fishing comment came out of nowhere. I have a feeling that it wasn't well thought out, because for some reason Ennis wasn't very careful with Alma. He kisses Jack right in front of a window she could easily look out of, he forgets his fishing gear, and he never catches any fish. So he never really did a good job of covering up his relationship with Jack from her. Even from the beginning with the fishing comment we can tell it's not very thought out. I don't think he'd ever fished, and I think Alma knew this, so it seemed strange to her from the beginning. I think Ennis's love for Jack was so much on Ennis's mind that he was never very careful about hiding it, despite how paranoid and afraid he was at people finding out.

[tpe]

I also found it kind of odd that the fishing comment came out of nowhere. I have a feeling that it wasn't well thought out, because for some reason Ennis wasn't very careful with Alma. He kisses Jack right in front of a window she could easily look out of, he forgets his fishing gear, and he never catches any fish. So he never really did a good job of covering up his relationship with Jack from her. Even from the beginning with the fishing comment we can tell it's not very thought out. I don't think he'd ever fished, and I think Alma knew this, so it seemed strange to her from the beginning. I think Ennis's love for Jack was so much on Ennis's mind that he was never very careful about hiding it, despite how paranoid and afraid he was at people finding out.

Although an aside, I think you say it much much better here.  Thanks, athena0204!

[myprivatejack]

I also found it kind of odd that the fishing comment came out of nowhere. I have a feeling that it wasn't well thought out, because for some reason Ennis wasn't very careful with Alma. He kisses Jack right in front of a window she could easily look out of, he forgets his fishing gear, and he never catches any fish. So he never really did a good job of covering up his relationship with Jack from her. Even from the beginning with the fishing comment we can tell it's not very thought out. I don't think he'd ever fished, and I think Alma knew this, so it seemed strange to her from the beginning. I think Ennis's love for Jack was so much on Ennis's mind that he was never very careful about hiding it, despite how paranoid and afraid he was at people finding out.

Beautifully put,Athena¡ But letting aside the fact that love and the happinness of seeing and being with Jack,could perfectly make Ennis a little careless;could it this lack of care be a kind of auto punishment for his "sin",against this homosexual feeling he felt so uncomfortable with?...

[vedrana]

Beautifully put,Athena¡ But letting aside the fact that love and the happinness of seeing and being with Jack,could perfectly make Ennis a little careless;could it this lack of care be a kind of auto punishment for his "sin",against this homosexual feeling he felt so uncomfortable with?...

I have a feeling that Ennis just lost it during the reunion kiss! When he saw his love after 4 years, he wasn't thinking (clear) at all. Alma? Who's Alma? At that moment there was no world around him! He just wanted to taste the sweetest lips no matter what and who! The whole world could've collapsed as far as he was concern.

[myprivatejack]

I have a feeling that Ennis just lost it during the reunion kiss! When he saw his love after 4 years, he wasn't thinking (clear) at all. Alma? Who's Alma? At that moment there was no world around him! He just wanted to taste the sweetest lips no matter what and who! The whole world could've collapsed as far as he was concern.

Yes you're right,and I have already said that Ennis felt overwhelmed by emotion by seeing Jack again; so in these moments,is easy to be catched guard down.But I was referring also to former moments;as Athena remarked,he often forgot his fishing gear,he never catched any fish and even,he never was careful enough as not awake Alma's suspicions with their so close friendship.Is in these cases when I wonder if something in his innest self wished to be punished for this forbidden love that,for him,don't forget that was like a damnation; Ennis never felt at ease with his feelings,which sometimes even denied,and I bet that sometimes he arrived to hate him for having them and Jack for make him having them...