Author Topic: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler  (Read 7691 times)

romeshvr

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Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:02 AM »
......“Jack used to mention you,” she said. “You’re the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know,” she said, “but I wasn’t sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing. He was only thirty-nine years old.”

Was Laureen lying when she says she was not sure about Ennis’s name and address?  I didn’t buy it in the movie.  This part bothers me a lot.  Do we know if Jack’s address was a PO Box Number or was it being sent as general delivery?  If it were general delivery would it not be delivered to Jack’s home?  If so, surely Laureen would have seen it, no? Annie writes ....it was months before Ennis found out about the accident and only because his card came back with deceased stamp.  Someone has to have told the post office that Jack passed away and if so they would have come across Enni’s note.  The only explanation is that someone other than Laureen took care of the post and they did not know who Ennis was???  I’m trying to figure out if Laureen knew about Jack’s relationship with Ennis and if so was she lying/pretending not to know.  Any comments.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 12:40 PM by tpe »

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail
« Reply #1 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:15 AM »
......“Jack used to mention you,” she said. “You’re the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know,” she said, “but I wasn’t sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing. He was only thirty-nine years old.”

Was Laureen lying when she says she was not sure about Ennis’s name and address?  I didn’t buy it in the movie.  This part bothers me a lot.  Do we know if Jack’s address was a PO Box Number or was it being sent as general delivery?  If it were general delivery would it not be delivered to Jack’s home?  If so, surely Laureen would have seen it, no? Annie writes ....it was months before Ennis found out about the accident and only because his card came back with deceased stamp.  Someone has to have told the post office that Jack passed away and if so they would have come across Enni’s note.  The only explanation is that someone other than Laureen took care of the post and they did not know who Ennis was???  I’m trying to figure out if Laureen knew about Jack’s relationship with Ennis and if so was she lying/pretending not to know.  Any comments.


Not completely sure, but I had the impression that Ennis addressed his postcards to Jack via a PO Box number.  Jack's first postcard to Ennis was by 'GENRAL' delivery (to use Jack's stunted spelling -- love this detail!!!!!)

In my opinion, she could not have known, since she was too busy running the business to care that much anyway.  The story is really open-ended as to whether Lureen was lying or not.  There certainly is a STRONG possibility that she was indeed not being entirely candid.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 11:17 AM by tpe »

Offline Aela

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail
« Reply #2 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:16 AM »
Maybe she just didn't read Jack's mail (unlike Alma.) 
"I was probably no fun anyways, was I?"
--Ennis

sharve

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #3 on: Jan 24, 2006, 05:36 PM »
... she said, “but I wasn’t sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing...

It seems to me that Jack could not take the risk of  Lureen finding out about his circle of "friends" (come on, you must have figured out by now that Jack was not just riding bulls) so, no traces of them could or should be found in the house. It could be very likely that he had a P O Box and that when the postmaster learned that he had died, he simply cancelled it and subsequentle returned all mail addressed to Jack with a DECEASED stamped on it. If that is true, Lureen would have had no way of communicating with Ennis regarding his death.

Just a thought...

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2006, 05:42 PM »
... she said, “but I wasn’t sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing...

It seems to me that Jack could not take the risk of  Lureen finding out about his circle of "friends" (come on, you must have figured out by now that Jack was not just riding bulls) so, no traces of them could or should be found in the house. It could be very likely that he had a P O Box and that when the postmaster learned that he had died, he simply cancelled it and subsequentle returned all mail addressed to Jack with a DECEASED stamped on it. If that is true, Lureen would have had no way of communicating with Ennis regarding his death.

Just a thought...

sharve, I like your explanation.  It solves one difficulty for me: if the address Ennis used was Jack's house, surely it would not have been sent back with 'DECEASED' stamped on it, as Lureen would have received it.  Your explanation gets rid of this difficulty.

romeshvr

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #5 on: Feb 02, 2006, 10:42 PM »
fyi...i did some digging and found out part of jack's address was RFD 2...this means rural free delivery...so it had to go to a house...if lureen saw the card or not is open to discussion...also if she returned it on purpose...who knows...something interesting to think about....

Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #6 on: Feb 02, 2006, 11:30 PM »
Interesting topic for discussion.

When I saw the movie the first time, I had a "hmmm wait a minute" reaction to Ennis receiving that card back stamped  like that.

For one thing we'll have to put it down to the local custom, but I don't believe the PO ever would stamp any mail with the word Deceased. They either deliver it or return to sender marked as undeliverable. Although as said I'm willing to allow for localized customs being different.

Second, if the mail was returned by the PO, then that means that it was NOT delivered to the house. Whether anyone dies or not, the family still lived at that house and the PO would not do something like that with the family still living in the same place. They would naturally keep delivering the mail and leave it to the family to make notifications, etc. Again small town customs might allow for different behavior, but the PO is not supposed to act on "common knowledge" with the sanctity of the US Mails! They need specific directives, and forms filled out.

So to try to analyze this logically, it means that either the mail was going someplace other than the home, and so the PO did stamp it and return it, or the mail was going to the house and Lureen (or someone in the household) had to have stamped it, or refused it. Now IF the card got back to the sender (Ennis) and it did, then it HAD to have had a return address on it, thus either Lureen was lying, or someone else refused it, or the mail was not delivered to the home.

I've already said my piece about whether the mail was delivered to the home...PO would not stop mail or stamp any with family still there. So did Jack have a private PO Box? and if he did, and it was private, how did anyone find out that he was dead and close the box? Small town postmaster knowledge? Maybe, but they wouldn't be able to close the box until the lease ran out, without some legal papers presented by the survivors.....the lease would have had to have expired...i.e., the rent came due and no one paid it. But is there enough time for that to have happened? Could be, could have been at the end of a cycle (I have a PO box and it's paid either by the year, or the half-year...again I will allow for different customs in different locations)

So after turning this all inside out, for me the only satisfactory explanation is that Jack DID have a private PO box, and the rent DID come due and wasn't paid so the PO then returned to sender any mail that later come through, although as i said....I don't believe they would stamp it Deceased, but simply stamp it Undeliverable, but I'll overlook that bit of this scenario. ( I think the whole fact of a post card stamped Deceased was a fictional narrative device that was necessary.) Small town customs could create flexibility but the PO could NOT give the mail to anyone else, and also could not forward it without a directive to do that from the person (without getting into legal survivor status which would put us back into Lureen knowing). They have to deliver as addressed, or return to sender as undeliverable, or if that's not possible, sent to Dead Letter Office, where if it's an actual envelope some official will open it and try to determine if there is any way to get it back to sender.

If instead of the card coming back to Ennis, he just had no response, he would still have telephoned Jack I think to see IF something had happened to explain why Jack was not responding to him. So from that point, the Ennis Lureen interaction would still be the same (only Lureen would have had to preface her comments with the first fact that Jack was dead but otherwise it would/could have been the same.)


A lot of talk for a seemingly small point!
But very interesting to dissect and think over.


Jack in Maine
MY PHILOSOPHY DISCLAIMER: All my comments concern the MOVIE and the content and inferences obtained there. All interpretations, projections, speculations, and opinions about plot and characters are based SOLELY on the content of the movie. They can not be argued or debated by quoting the printed short story. A comparison of the two media is an interesting discussion but must be a separate discussion.

Offline cybernaut

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #7 on: Feb 03, 2006, 01:12 AM »
Jack: What I don't understand is how was the postcard stamped deceased returned to Ennis when he didn't have the return address on the card?

(What I thought was unless the postmaster knew the frequent postcards between Ennis and Jack, and returned to Ennis via General Delivery in Riverton.)

The stamp deceased was a little strange, unless again if the postmaster knew Jack personally. I hope he or she wasn't the one talking about Jack behind everybody's back especially when all those cards from "male fishing buddies" come flooding into his PO Box. Sets tongues waggin, don't you think? Besides big tractor business in a small town is quite a big deal, everybody would know you. Its a matter of time some nosey little parker would string all these up. Who knows, Lureen might have even hired a private investigator to find out about her husband's cheatin ways....  :(
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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #8 on: Feb 03, 2006, 12:47 PM »
Jack: What I don't understand is how was the postcard stamped deceased returned to Ennis when he didn't have the return address on the card?

(What I thought was unless the postmaster knew the frequent postcards between Ennis and Jack, and returned to Ennis via General Delivery in Riverton.)

The stamp deceased was a little strange, unless again if the postmaster knew Jack personally. I hope he or she wasn't the one talking about Jack behind everybody's back especially when all those cards from "male fishing buddies" come flooding into his PO Box. Sets tongues waggin, don't you think? Besides big tractor business in a small town is quite a big deal, everybody would know you. Its a matter of time some nosey little parker would string all these up. Who knows, Lureen might have even hired a private investigator to find out about her husband's cheatin ways....  :(


Hi Cybernaut,
Why do you say the postcard didn't have the return address on it? I can't say at the moment I have total recall, but if I do recall correctly the DECEASED stamp was across the message body and not the address. (is that right?...if it is...that in itself is not realistic) And I DO recall that on at least one postcard Ennis sent, I think it was his first reply, he did put his return address on it, so it's reasonable to assume he always did and thus it was on this last card too.

As for Lureen hiring a Private Investigator......well we all are entitled to our imaginative speculations and flights of fancy but mine wouldn't go that far! I honestly don't think that Lureen "suspected"  until Jack's odd death and that explanation story, and then the full realization dawned on her during her Ennis phone conversation. So I don't think there was any "plotting" of any kind toward Jack by her.

And I don't think it is so, but I would be more inclined to suspect her father than her. But in the end I think Jack was just a little too open and incautious for the time and place, and he may have approached the wrong person, or done something else which proved his sexuality. Even a bigot (and there were 3) hell bent on murder must BELIEVE that his victim was what they thought. I know that there are deranged people, but I think there had to be more than just dislike toward Jack. Someone had to have had some sort of experience, or know of someone who had some experience, with Jack.

Jack in Maine

MY PHILOSOPHY DISCLAIMER: All my comments concern the MOVIE and the content and inferences obtained there. All interpretations, projections, speculations, and opinions about plot and characters are based SOLELY on the content of the movie. They can not be argued or debated by quoting the printed short story. A comparison of the two media is an interesting discussion but must be a separate discussion.

Offline cybernaut

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Re: Ennis's call, Laureen and returned mail - Spoiler
« Reply #9 on: Feb 03, 2006, 01:45 PM »

Hi Cybernaut,
Why do you say the postcard didn't have the return address on it? I can't say at the moment I have total recall, but if I do recall correctly the DECEASED stamp was across the message body and not the address. (is that right?...if it is...that in itself is not realistic) And I DO recall that on at least one postcard Ennis sent, I think it was his first reply, he did put his return address on it, so it's reasonable to assume he always did and thus it was on this last card too.

As for Lureen hiring a Private Investigator......well we all are entitled to our imaginative speculations and flights of fancy but mine wouldn't go that far! I honestly don't think that Lureen "suspected"  until Jack's odd death and that explanation story, and then the full realization dawned on her during her Ennis phone conversation. So I don't think there was any "plotting" of any kind toward Jack by her.

And I don't think it is so, but I would be more inclined to suspect her father than her. But in the end I think Jack was just a little too open and incautious for the time and place, and he may have approached the wrong person, or done something else which proved his sexuality. Even a bigot (and there were 3) hell bent on murder must BELIEVE that his victim was what they thought. I know that there are deranged people, but I think there had to be more than just dislike toward Jack. Someone had to have had some sort of experience, or know of someone who had some experience, with Jack.

Jack in Maine

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Hi Jack!

Well, maybe I am more cynical...  :-\

Yes, I made the assumption that Ennis didn't provide a return address like Jack did. I was wrong, Ennis did write a return address in one scene.

"You bet."

"Ennis Del Mar,
Riverton Wy

Jack Twist
RFD2
Childress Texas"

Somehow the handwriting on "You Bet" doesn't match the excellent calligraphy on the address, hmmm...  :-\
I guess the Riverton post office provides very personalized service!

BTW, What's RFD2??  ???

As for Lureen, I was drawing the parallels of the stereotypical power women who would blaze through everything that stands in their path. I am not sure if Lureen is a woman like that but I thought she would not tolerate infidelity and Jack sleeping with men. Besides Jack's old man said something about a ranch neighbour, so I drew the conclusion that Lureen and probably that ranch neighbour's wife had suspicion, checked the story out and finally decides to finish him off by hiring low-lives scums.

I know it seems far-fetched but power and insecurity is a deadly combination. Lureen's response to Ennis was just stone cold. Dead cold. She had that loathing and sarcastic tone about Jack that frightens me as if she didn't want to deal with it much further. She probably knew that Jack was queer before that phone call, its a matter of time those guys Jack was sleeping with would like to find out how Jack died. And as such, that probably answers your question about the stamp "deceased" as if it was so business-like. Lureen probably stamped it herself!

Lots of maybes and probables so that's my humble interpretation.
I'm saying a prayer of thanks... that you didn't bring your harmonica!