Topic: Spittle

[tpe]

Hello bella muerte.  I thought he was spitting something out his mouth, and yet I did feel that there was more than a hint of contempt in that tiny action.  Is it me?  You seem to confirm my feelings...

[aintfoolin]

John Sr's spittling was rude and digusting! It looks to me that he's a tobacco chewer( Barf!) The things poor Mrs. Twist had to endure. GAWD!

[LuvJackNasty]

I see it the same way (re: Papa Twist) I see it as almost spitting on Jack's dreams. 

[Asali]

I see it the same way (re: Papa Twist) I see it as almost spitting on Jack's dreams. 

Same here.

I hadn't seen this thread before, very interesting. Must go review snit again.

[welshwitch]

Of course it's done with contempt and to make it clear, I think, what he thinks of Ennis, who is as bad as Jack, like him in fact, in John Twist's eyes. English has all sorts of expressions of contempt to do with spit - spitting in someone's eye or on their grave, and who was that Vice Presdient who said the job wasn@t worth a pitcher of warm spit? It's an insult and meant to be.

[ragtimecowboy]

I'd take a warm wet kiss from either of them any time, practice makes perfect

[tpe]

I'd take a warm wet kiss from either of them any time, practice makes perfect

I call to mind Patriot1's defense of John Twist.  This is why I take care NOT to assume that my feelings about the matter are infallible, even if many of you here share the same opinions with me.

I do try to look at things in a different light, but must admit that I fail at a re-evaluation of John Twist's feelings and actions.   It is indeed my opinion that his spitting in that scene indicated contempt.  I cannot prove this to be a truth, but I can acknowledge that his is indeed that way I feel about him.

[LuvJackNasty]

I feel the same Thomas- He refuses to honor his dead son's (his only child for that matter) last wish. I know as a mother if something happened to one of my girls (God forbid) I don't think I could live. He says "Thought he was too damn special to be buried in the family plot" so I can't see it as anything other than contempt for Jack.

[welshwitch]

If Jack expressed a wish to be buried somewhere other than in the family plot, that was in effect a rejection of his family. but since his father thought so little of him and was so contemptuous and uncaring, it's hard to blame Jack for wanting to rest elsewhere, somewhere where he'd been happy.

[Asali]

It is indeed my opinion that his spitting in that scene indicated contempt.  I cannot prove this to be a truth, but I can acknowledge that his is indeed that way I feel about him.

I feel exactly the same, contempt without a doubt.

If Jack expressed a wish to be buried somewhere other than in the family plot, that was in effect a rejection of his family. but since his father thought so little of him and was so contemptuous and uncaring, it's hard to blame Jack for wanting to rest elsewhere, somewhere where he'd been happy.

I doubt that Jack would have thought that his request would be seen as rejecting his family or even considered such a thing, all he wanted was to be at rest in a place that was so very special to him.

[aintfoolin]

I'm sorry,but I see no redeeming qualities to the old man. According to the SS he did unspeakable things to Jack as a child and tried to beat Jack down every chance he got. probably ran Jack off too.   You'd think by nearing his own end that he would at least try to be civil with another human being. but no, he still continues to be an asshole. I agree with the earlier post asking why in the world would Jack want to be buried someplace where the old coot could spit on his grave?
His humiliation of Ennis (bringing up Randall)  IMO was a rude (bordering on vulgar) and yes very contemptable display of disrespect for his only son and the man he loved.

[tpe]

I feel the same Thomas- He refuses to honor his dead son's (his only child for that matter) last wish. I know as a mother if something happened to one of my girls (God forbid) I don't think I could live. He says "Thought he was too damn special to be buried in the family plot" so I can't see it as anything other than contempt for Jack.

I could understand their chagrin at Jack's wish to be buried elsewhere, but that quote from John Twist rings too contemptuous, most especially since it refers to a recently deceased son.

I would also think that action also showed contempt for Ennis.  I do think that John Twist knew about the two of them, although this is never explicitly acknowleged in that scene.  The spitting seems to hint at this, given the words that were said right before he spat into the cup.

[tpe]

If Jack expressed a wish to be buried somewhere other than in the family plot, that was in effect a rejection of his family. but since his father thought so little of him and was so contemptuous and uncaring, it's hard to blame Jack for wanting to rest elsewhere, somewhere where he'd been happy.

Yes, as I said in the previous post, I do think the father must have interpreted the request as a rejection.

Personally, I don't think Jack ever intended it to be a rejection, although that is another topic...

[tpe]

I doubt that Jack would have thought that his request would be seen as rejecting his family or even considered such a thing, all he wanted was to be at rest in a place that was so very special to him.

I find it interesting that I  said exactly the same thing in the previous post.  WE seem to be tracing a trail of agreement here...

[tpe]

I'm sorry,but I see no redeeming qualities to the old man. According to the SS he did unspeakable things to Jack as a child and tried to beat Jack down every chance he got. probably ran Jack off too.   You'd think by nearing his own end that he would at least try to be civil with another human being. but no, he still continues to be an asshole. I agree with the earlier post asking why in the world would Jack want to be buried someplace where the old coot could spit on his grave?
His humiliation of Ennis (bringing up Randall)  IMO was a rude (bordering on vulgar) and yes very contemptable display of disrespect for his only son and the man he loved.

There are two things about John Twist that make me think that he was being contemptuous.  The first is the glaring look in his eyes, and the second is, as I had said, the simple act of spitting into the cup.

Spittle and spitting appear in so many guises in this movie.  But I must admit that some instances, particularly John Twist's action, can be interpreted in more than one way.  If we are correct to say that his action here signifies contempt for Jack and Ennis, then it acts somewhat similarly to other scenes where a character spits in order to relieve tension or pent-up emotions.  One could imagine John Twist boiling inside.  I would have almost imagined him spitting on Ennis rather than into the cup -- but that is just my feeling.  There is still enough ambiguity in this action to merit more than one interpretation.

[ragtimecowboy]

I feel the same Thomas- He refuses to honor his dead son's (his only child for that matter) last wish. I know as a mother if something happened to one of my girls (God forbid) I don't think I could live. He says "Thought he was too damn special to be buried in the family plot" so I can't see it as anything other than contempt for Jack.

It was nothing but pure contempt for Ennis's offer and Jack's last request. The glint in his eye and facial expression convey this pretty clearly. how despicable!

[Asali]

One could imagine John Twist boiling inside.  I would have almost imagined him spitting on Ennis rather than into the cup -- but that is just my feeling. 

Oh yeah, I am sure he would love to have done that and probably would have if the wife wasn't about.

[tpe]

Oh yeah, I am sure he would love to have done that and probably would have if the wife wasn't about.

I do think others may think we are being too harsh on John Twist.  I just feel this way -- they way the scene was enacted made me feel this way.  Does it say something about myself?  Do our reactions say something about ourselves?  Most likely...

[aintfoolin]

I just thinkthe resentment towards John Sr. is valid due to his lack of respect for Jack , even in death. He sowed these seeds himself,  refusing to honor Jack's wishes to have his ashes spread upon BBM. Never saw Jack;s direct interaction with his father, but we heard enough about him through Jack to come to the conclusion that he was ashamed of his son. Jack alluded to the neglect and coldness with which he was treated by him. His frequent trips to visit Lightning Flat, were probably more out of concern for his mother, than the old man.I feel this critisism comes from a strong desire to see Jack and Ennis receive some respect for the battle they fought to be together. To have a heart.  By this time they'd suffered enough. His son is dead and he's still making judgements. Despicable indeed.

[tpe]

Jack and Ennis have indeed suffered enough.  Whatever the cause of John Twist's ambivalence, Ennis and Jack deserved better,  Jack, most especially.  His last wish should have been honored, most especially by a father.

The symbolism of the spittle may be disputed.  The fact that Jack's wishes were not honored is beyond dispute.

[welshwitch]

Just for a nanosecond ( and devil's advocate isn't a part I normally play) I can see the horror of John Twist's position. He drove away his son, who felt so little a part of the family and so much attachment elsewhere that he didn't want to be buried among his relations. His son has been murdered, and surely whatever the lies Lureen tells the Twists must have some idea of the truth. Now he's old, with no family other than his wife, from whom jhe also appears to be distant, seeing her sympathy for the man Jack loved and unable to share it - and just as much as Jack buried on the grieving plain, but in his case buried alive.

[tpe]

I see anger in John Twist's face -- I would have expected sadness.  Still, this is my own reading.  I can also understand his refusal to agree to Jack's request -- it was like a slap, although I doubt that Jack intended it to be this way.

Getting back to the subject of the spittle, though: I think it hinted at spite, when I would have expected compassion.

[aintfoolin]

It was NOT Sr's decision to make. Jack had already made his final wishes known to Lureen. I don't know how he got his hands on the ashes at all. Lureen must have made some arrangement, but if only she'd kept them all a little while longer,Ennis would have been able to carry out Jack's  last wishes without his interference IMO. Lureen did'nt know if BB mountain really exsisted  (so she says) until she talked to Ennis and it was she who requested that Ennis visit Jack's folks to retreive them right? I agree WW. Sr had to live with the fact that he denied his own son happiness, and in this sense he was "buried alive", This would work for me if I thought the man had a concience but if not at this Important milestone in his life, (the murder of his son for Christ sake), when, oh when did he plan on reedeming himself in the eyes of his long suffering wife?, his  other close loved one and to his son's memory? He had the chance when Ennis came to him, but what did he do? well......we know.
Maybe, and thats a BIG maybe his insistence on having Jack's ashes there with him was his way of keeping a part of his son alive with him, I doubt this but it maybe a way to redeem himself in some form after all. The thought did cross my mind. Fleeting though it may be. My two cents.

[tpe]

Maybe, and thats a BIG maybe his insistence on having Jack's ashes there with him was his way of keeping a part of his son alive with him, I doubt this but it maybe a way to redeem himself in some form after all. The thought did cross my mind. Fleeting though it may be. My two cents.

This resonates with me.  Is there a father who is so hard of heart that cannot long for a long lost son come back home?  After all, John Twist will also be burried in the same plot. 

I recall the account of the blind man seeing after the Logos applies spittle and mud on his eyes.  Symbolically,  the use of spittle in the many scenes of BBM may just be that: invitations for us to look and see.  In the case of John Twist, perhaps we can also admit to see a father yearning deep down for a son who was lost to him in life.

[aintfoolin]

Deep, deep down inside..... Maybe. If he could have brought himself to the point of aknowledging who Ennis really was and what he meant to Jack , that would have been a big hurdle for him to overcome. Accepting Ennis would force him to accept Jack. Accepting Jack would have forced him to accept Ennis AND Jack .....together. I have my doubts, but anything is possible I suppose. IMHO always.

[tpe]

But why did he spit precisely at that moment when he was talking about Jack coming home and bringing someone with him?  I really sensed that he did not accept his sone for who he really was.  That is why I think he could never accept Ennis and what he stood for -- as someone who had rightful claim to fulfill Jack's wishes.

[aintfoolin]

Probably saw Ennis as part of the problem. An extention of what he hated about his own son. His only redeeming quality is that he was married to a woman who loved her son unconditionally. She akknowledged Ennis for who he was and led him to the shirts up stairs. Twist Sr, should have learned alot from her instead of spitting disrespectfully into a cup at the kitchen table with Ennis there to see. Jack's "half-baked notion"  in reality, was more than he'll ever know.

[tpe]

Probably saw Ennis as part of the problem. An extention of what he hated about his own son.

I can agree with this, most certainly.  I would even venture to say that I feel he hated anything/anyone that his son treasured, although I cannot prove this as fact.

His only redeeming quality is that he was married to a woman who loved her son unconditionally. She akknowledged Ennis for who he was and led him to the shirts up stairs. Twist Sr, should have learned alot from her instead of spitting disrespectfully into a cup at the kitchen table with Ennis there to see. Jack's "half-baked notion"  in reality, was more than he'll ever know.

And I do think that Mrs. Twist treasured anything/anyone that was a part of her son's life.  I think she sensed/knew that Ennis was the one.

[welshwitch]

Because she loves her son unconditionally, for himslef - John Twist would love him only if he became what he wanted him to be. Spitting is the expression of his contempt for what Jack did become, and perhaps from Ennis too, who was a part of that.

[tpe]

A number of us here do agree that the act of spitting in this scene signified contempt.

How about other scenes.  I am haunted by the scene that shows Jack spitting and Ennis looking on as they bring the flock down the Mountain...

This may not be a simple of anything, but I can't help being haunted by this action done in the midst of human silence.  For me, it was as if there was a bad taste in Jack's mouth at that moment.  Ennis had such a strange, almost guilty look. 

I guess the spitting in that scene could be best interprested as part of the uneasy silence that bore heavily on them.  I'm sure both wanted to speak, but were overcome with so much emotion.