Topic: Spittle

[ksxks]

I hadn't read the ss when I first saw the movie, so I had no idea what to expect from FNIT. When I saw Ennis spitting my eyes nearly popped out of my head! I wasn't shocked in a prudish sort of way (it would take a lot more than that to shock me!), but because I didn't expect it to be so gritty and realistic. It certainly wasn't your average Hollywood sex scene, all nice and clean and perfect, and not particularly believable ::)I imagine a lot of people were quite shocked by it, and probably found Ennis spitting on himself distasteful, but I thought it was brilliantly done in the context of the scene, you get a real sense of how raw and instinctive that first night was for both of them, all that wild passion let loose...Wow!! Of course when I read the ss, it made even more sense why it was there. They could have not included it of course, but I'm glad they did, the scene wouldn't have worked as well without it

This is exactly how I felt, CrimsonSky.  I hadn't read the story, either, so had no expectations -- it was quite a raw experience for me, the whole movie.  And the FNIT scene, I was shocked exactly as you say you were.  Not for me (unless "shocked" means like the most f**king damn hot thing I'd sure ever seen up so close and personal, in a manner of speaking...) but because they showed this reality of gay sex without cutting away.  There on the gigantic screen!  I was certain others were finding it shocking.  And I, too, was so glad Ang Lee and the others wanted to put this in.

kathy

[ksxks]

Of course. But I mean it's quirky when compared to everything else in that scene. Shirtless Jack,  Ennis exploring Jack's chest with his hands, Jack on top of Ennis, the hunger in their kisses, the tenderness of it all. Out of all that, we are talking about a little bit of spittle that some people probably don't even notice right away. Just makes it quirky to me.

   I see what you mean.  Yes, quirky that we fixate on that, when the whole scene is so incredibly sexy and beautiful.

kathy

[ksxks]

The detail about Ennis applying spittle on himself is of course in the short story.  Although I half-expected it, I must admit that I did like the way this was realized cinematically -- very matter-of-factly, I should add.

The thread of spittle is a wonderful detail that certainly makes you believe in their new-found intimacy.  It made the enite SNIT all the more beautiful.

Ah, yes.  They did do a fantastic job of it.  It could have been shown either more purposely, like drawn out, or pointed up; or it could have been glossed over, like you weren't really sure if that's what you saw.  But they did it exactly right.  (I personally think he needed a little more, like two good spitfuls.  Did I say that out loud?)

Hey -- how about a screencap of the spitting in the hand?

kathy

[carbyville]

The detail about Ennis applying spittle on himself is of course in the short story.  Although I half-expected it, I must admit that I did like the way this was realized cinematically -- very matter-of-factly, I should add.

The thread of spittle is a wonderful detail that certainly makes you believe in their new-found intimacy.  It made the enite SNIT all the more beautiful.

Ah, yes.  They did do a fantastic job of it.  It could have been shown either more purposely, like drawn out, or pointed up; or it could have been glossed over, like you weren't really sure if that's what you saw.  But they did it exactly right.  (I personally think he needed a little more, like two good spitfuls.  Did I say that out loud?)

Hey -- how about a screencap of the spitting in the hand?

kathy

I've got a few caps of this but I'm going to need a little bit of time so I can lighten the image up because it is so dark that it's almost impossible to see.

[aintfoolin]

 Yeah, he could have used a little bit more in FNIT. 

[Kazza]

Hello cornflake.  Yes, that had been noted in an old thread, although it has not been a subject of a thread -- if I recall correctly.  Perhaps we should consider this thread as a discussion of the use of spitting/spittle to highten dramatic tension in the various scenes.

Specifically, I note that in the post-divorce meeting (am I correct?) as well as in the final meeting, Ennis spits at certain critical points.  I got the impression that this was a mannerism that he uses in part to decrease tension.

I've noticed the spitting too, and to me it seems to be a to punctuate an unpleasant or distasteful encounter, and as you said to break a tense moment.

Jack spits when they leave Aguirre's trailer the first time.
He does it again as they are leaving the mountain, after their fight.
Ennis does it after his pre-divorce argument with Alma (when she's going to work).
Ennis spits as Jack is leaving in the post-divorce scene.
Ennis does it again during his and Jack's final argument (just after the 'all them things I don't know" speech).

Can't think of any more off hand. Can't believe that I remembered all those instances. I must have seen this film too many times - nah!!

Karen

[tpe]

Thank you, karen, for the wonderful list.  For some reason, the one I find most beautiful is when Jack spits when they are going down the mountain.  I guess this is because both of them are silent and we hear only the bleating of the sheep.  Jack's act of spitting is the only really active action that punctuates this scene.  This and Ennis's face -- showing a mixture of guilt, sadness, and confusion -- make this scene so memorable -- even though not a single word is uttered.

[tpe]

Hey -- how about a screencap of the spitting in the hand?

kathy

I think we need at least 2: ennis spitting into his hand, and Ennis applying the spittle to his member.  Yes, it would be nice if anyone here can supply 2 screencaps. 


I do think the single delicate thread was just right.  It was not overdone -- and you would miss it if you were not looking carefully enough.  It was quiet, delicate, delicious.

[Kazza]

I do think the single delicate thread was just right.  It was not overdone -- and you would miss it if you were not looking carefully enough.  It was quiet, delicate, delicious.

Here's a question, do you think that this spittle thread was genuinely captured on film or was it added as an effect afterwards to add to the scene?

Karen

[tpe]

I think it was real, but I must admit that I can't prove it.  Good point, karen.  But I don't know if they would go to all the trouble simulating it...

[FlwrChild]

I think it just is what it is and happened naturally. Which I like because they so completely brought these characters to life on the screen and it feels like part of the magic that was captured throughout the whole filming process. Makes the whole thing seem so real.

[aintfoolin]

I have to admit I was shocked but not offended the first time I watched this FNIT.  I thought :  They're really going to........OMG!! It looked so real, so deliberate, and I credit direction and two fine actors for this.  This act of Ennis spitting into  his hand for lube was  raw and urgent, yet,  so  simple and  natural at the same time .It symbolized  part of who Ennis is IMO  Nothing fancy, just sensible. Jack was lucky a man, some may say he made his own luck, with  his suspicions that Ennis wanted it too  being right , and him refusing to take no for an answer. I adored him.   My 2 cents

[tpe]

Interesting that spit plays into the FNIT and SNIT -- but in very different guises.   Yes, the first instance is natural and urgent.  The second is tender and lyrical.   

[ksxks]

Hey -- how about a screencap of the spitting in the hand?

kathy

I think we need at least 2: ennis spitting into his hand, and Ennis applying the spittle to his member.  Yes, it would be nice if anyone here can supply 2 screencaps. 


I do think the single delicate thread was just right.  It was not overdone -- and you would miss it if you were not looking carefully enough.  It was quiet, delicate, delicious.

Okay, if you say, so, my friend -- two caps it is.

And that "quiet, delicate, delicious" wet kiss...I'm quietly drooling here...

kathy

[ksxks]

I have to admit I was shocked but not offended the first time I watched this FNIT.  I thought :  They're really going to........OMG!! It looked so real, so deliberate, and I credit direction and two fine actors for this.  This act of Ennis spitting into  his hand for lube was  raw and urgent, yet,  so  simple and  natural at the same time .It symbolized  part of who Ennis is IMO  Nothing fancy, just sensible. Jack was lucky a man, some may say he made his own luck, with  his suspicions that Ennis wanted it too  being right , and him refusing to take no for an answer. I adored him.   My 2 cents

Great two cents, aintfoolin.  This is a lovely encapsulation of those moments in the tent, and how they were presented to us, and how they represented the characters for us to know them.

I can't swear to this -- may be a faulty memory -- but I'm pretty sure my "OMG" in that scene (shocked but not offended, as you said) consisted of putting my hand over my mouth, or however you describe that.  You know, the indrawn breath and the hand over the mouth or else I might have said OMG and other stuff out loud, like JCAlmighty oh boy god help me, etc. 

kathy

[carbyville]

I have to admit I was shocked but not offended the first time I watched this FNIT.  I thought :  They're really going to........OMG!! It looked so real, so deliberate, and I credit direction and two fine actors for this.  This act of Ennis spitting into  his hand for lube was  raw and urgent, yet,  so  simple and  natural at the same time .It symbolized  part of who Ennis is IMO  Nothing fancy, just sensible. Jack was lucky a man, some may say he made his own luck, with  his suspicions that Ennis wanted it too  being right , and him refusing to take no for an answer. I adored him.   My 2 cents

Great two cents, aintfoolin.  This is a lovely encapsulation of those moments in the tent, and how they were presented to us, and how they represented the characters for us to know them.

I can't swear to this -- may be a faulty memory -- but I'm pretty sure my "OMG" in that scene (shocked but not offended, as you said) consisted of putting my hand over my mouth, or however you describe that.  You know, the indrawn breath and the hand over the mouth or else I might have said OMG and other stuff out loud, like JCAlmighty oh boy god help me, etc. 

kathy

Being 100% honest, when Ennis spit on his hand and lubed himself up I smiled. My OMG moment was Jack pounding the ground with his fist.

Oh and here's one of two pictures..



Best I could do.

[greenfrog]

Being 100% honest, when Ennis spit on his hand and lubed himself up I smiled. My OMG moment was Jack pounding the ground with his fist.

Oh and here's one of two pictures..



Best I could do.

Carby, you've made my day     

[ksxks]

Me, too.  Thanks!

kathy

[aintfoolin]

Yes, yes thank you so much for the picture!

[tpe]

Being 100% honest, when Ennis spit on his hand and lubed himself up I smiled. My OMG moment was Jack pounding the ground with his fist.

Oh and here's one of two pictures..



Best I could do.

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.  I think the fist pounding was suggestive as well as effective as an alternative to auto-erotocism.

[carbyville]

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.  I think the fist pounding was suggestive as well as effective as an alternative to auto-erotocism.

Hmm.. never thought of it that way. They definitely wouldn't have been able to show Jack stimulating himself. The thing I noticed about Jack in the beginning of that scene is when he takes Ennis's hand and puts it on himself, the way he puts his face into the pillow and exhales really heavily. He was already good and horny at that point and Ennis's hand on him even through the jeans had him breathing heavily.

Hmm, maybe we should change this from the spittle thread to the FNIT discussion 

[ksxks]

I had wondered if the fist pounding also suggested the action of masturbation -- something that was implied in the short story.  To have shown Jack stimulating himself would have been too much for some people.  I think the fist pounding was suggestive as well as effective as an alternative to auto-erotocism.

Fascinating, tpe.  I hadn't thought of that, or, haven't really compared that scene from the movie with the story.  Yes, I imagine that would have been a little much, to show Jack masturbating -- it was quite a lot to show on the big screen in such gorgeous raw close-up as it was.  It certainly would seem that's what Jack would have done (but what do I know?)  Be that as it may, I love the fist-pounding.  A very expressive touch nonetheless.

kathy

[tpe]

To be frank, I was quite surprised to observe that throughout the scene, Jack did not seem to practice any form of auto-stimulation.  A viable alternative would have been to assume that Ennis himself assisted Jack in this regard (I think the same hand that Ennis used to apply the spittle was the very same hand that was "unseen" throughout the act).  The scene was dark enough that one could imagine this to be so.  In any case, one cannot imagine Jack ejaculating without some tactile stimulation -- unless he were like some people who can attain climax solely through pure mental stimulation/suggestion.

[welshwitch]

I assumed the pounding on the ground was simply an expression of intense arousal and encouragement but also a parallel with Ennis's pounding on the wall in the scene after he left Jack.

[tpe]

Spittle can be equated to desire/appetite, no?  After all, its production is stimulated by hunger of some kind...

[carbyville]

To be frank, I was quite surprised to observe that throughout the scene, Jack did not seem to practice any form of auto-stimulation.  A viable alternative would have been to assume that Ennis himself assisted Jack in this regard (I think the same hand that Ennis used to apply the spittle was the very same hand that was "unseen" throughout the act).  The scene was dark enough that one could imagine this to be so.  In any case, one cannot imagine Jack ejaculating without some tactile stimulation -- unless he were like some people who can attain climax solely through pure mental stimulation/suggestion.

It's possible. His other hand remains in the scene, holding onto Jack's shirt, while the other one remains "off screen" for most of FNIT. It's not until the very end, right before Ennis's climax do we see that hand again. Many don't even notice it unless it's pointed out. I just re-watched FNIT to make sure.

After Ennis applies the spit to himself and enters Jack, his hand stays down in that general area for a little bit. If you look, Ennis's position resembles the classic "reach around" posture, as if to suggest that he is helping Jack along. A little ways into the scene Jack does move his hand down that way and grabs Ennis's hand and holds it. I can't possibly think of anything else Ennis could have been doing down there with his hand, so I think you may be right, tpe. It's been said that all of the love scenes were choreographed, I am sure this was put into thought when they were "choreographing" FNIT. They wouldn't just let Ennis's hand sitting there idle. There's a reason it stayed down there.

[tpe]

Thanks carbyville for looking into this.  I know that the FNIT is a bit more lighted in the dvd than in the movie, so we can make more careful observations about this scene.

As you said, it is all wonderful choreography, no?  Even unto the spittle and it's implied application.  Ennis's hand moements are closely tied to this detail, and I thank you for looking into it closer.

The fluid motion starting from the application of spittle to the rapid insertion of the member is wonderfully done -- everything is implied, but by the movements, one can almost "see" the rapid progress of the attack.  As I had said in the last post, a thread can be drawn between the use of spittle and moment of sexual hunger.  It cross-refernences the senses in a strange but not all unexpected way.

[ksxks]

Thanks carbyville for looking into this.  I know that the FNIT is a bit more lighted in the dvd than in the movie, so we can make more careful observations about this scene.

As you said, it is all wonderful choreography, no?  Even unto the spittle and it's implied application.  Ennis's hand moements are closely tied to this detail, and I thank you for looking into it closer.

The fluid motion starting from the application of spittle to the rapid insertion of the member is wonderfully done -- everything is implied, but by the movements, one can almost "see" the rapid progress of the attack.  As I had said in the last post, a thread can be drawn between the use of spittle and moment of sexual hunger.  It cross-refernences the senses in a strange but not all unexpected way.

This is lovely.  Beautiful words and surmises about this most beautiful and raw act.  With all the symbology and meaningfulness (and implied, as you said, tpe, leaving it to viewer to interpret) in the entire movie, this scene was certainly done no less deliberately, by Ang, while I'm sure letting Heath and Jake work out how best to express Ennis and Jack.

And yes, I love the analogy of the spittle and sexual hunger.

kathy

[tpe]

Spittle is used in so many ways in this movie.  It's role as a lubricant in the FNIT matches the raw and abrupt power of that scene.  Contrast this with the thread of saliva that graces the SNIT.  Surely there can be no greater contrast so worthy of our admiration.
 

[aimi15]

Spittle is used in so many ways in this movie.  It's role as a lubricant in the FNIT matches the raw and abrupt power of that scene.  Contrast this with the thread of saliva that graces the SNIT.  Surely there can be no greater contrast so worthy of our admiration.
 

Hmm, in a way i find it a slap in the face the way this subject comes up at the end of the film when Jack's father spits so horribly into his mug. I really wanted to pick the obnoxious little man up and shake him. It was such a mean gesture.