Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[tpe]

Considering the stubbornness of Ennis and the whole society Jack was fighting with, his difficult situation and not compassionate people all around him, considering the time and the backward place he was living at, and Jack's pretty high goals - he was a dreamer indeed!

I think "dreamer" is the best way to think about Jack.  And if we think about it, Ennis was part of his being this way, for better or for worse.

[vedrana]

Perhaps.  But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt. 

I also believe that the shirts were the final stroke :\'( , but there's another point that we all forget - during his phone call with Lureen, she told him that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback mountain. I think that even than Ennis has partially come to the point when he could understand Jack's feelings.

So, we can divide the last stage of Ennis' cognition, after FC-
1. after FC he was certainly thinking about Jack, his words during FC, his infidelity and the anger that Jack had shown for the first time.
2.Next stage is after the phone call with Lureen when he found out how brokeback mountain was Jack's favorite place up to a point that he wanted to be buried there - of course that Ennis knew that he's the reason for Jack's loving Brokeback so much!
3. And third stage is after finding the shirts - then everything was pretty much clear. Ennis knew that what they had was Love, and this is going to be his open wound for the rest of his lonely life!  

[vedrana]

I think "dreamer" is the best way to think about Jack.  And if we think about it, Ennis was part of his being this way, for better or for worse.

Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! 

[myprivatejack]

Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! 

I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.

[vedrana]

I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.

Sure, this makes sense! Even I think that it wasn't an escaping from the reality - it was more like changing the reality and moving on from an unfavorable situations... I think that he was "swimming" in the reality very well - he just wanted it to be different, better for two of them.

[tpe]

I also believe that the shirts were the final stroke :\'( , but there's another point that we all forget - during his phone call with Lureen, she told him that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback mountain. I think that even than Ennis has partially come to the point when he could understand Jack's feelings.

So, we can divide the last stage of Ennis' cognition, after FC-
1. after FC he was certainly thinking about Jack, his words during FC, his infidelity and the anger that Jack had shown for the first time.
2.Next stage is after the phone call with Lureen when he found out how brokeback mountain was Jack's favorite place up to a point that he wanted to be buried there - of course that Ennis knew that he's the reason for Jack's loving Brokeback so much!
3. And third stage is after finding the shirts - then everything was pretty much clear. Ennis knew that what they had was Love, and this is going to be his open wound for the rest of his lonely life! 

Yes.  We tend to forget that Ennis's change of heart can be seen starting from the last scene with Cassie and on to LF.  The scene with Lureen is especially noteworthy, as you indicate here.  It is the first true sign of Ennis's full realization of Jack's love.

[tpe]

Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! 

I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.

Exactly.  Beautifully put. 

[myprivatejack]

Exactly.  Beautifully put. 

Thomas ¡

Sure, this makes sense! Even I think that it wasn't an escaping from the reality - it was more like changing the reality and moving on from an unfavorable situations... I think that he was "swimming" in the reality very well - he just wanted it to be different, better for two of them.

When I say "escape from the reality" I mean from going to Mexico to find in other arms some relief for Ennis rejections,to living all his life wishing a "sweet life" that he knew very at the end that never would happen...Of course,he had his feet well enough on the ground as to become more bitter in his last years because he realised what his life was...

[smartestsonia]

Perhaps.  But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt. 

Well, I feel that after breaking down in the FC, Ennis wanted to be by himself but then he also saw Jack hurting in the FC..Even though late he realized it that time and even though Ennis was so hurt he wanted things to work out between them..If not living together then atleast meeting up and just spending sometime so that it can soothen the pain..However, the intensity of jack's love was realized by Ennis only after seeing the shirts...

[tpe]

Well, I feel that after breaking down in the FC, Ennis wanted to be by himself but then he also saw Jack hurting in the FC..Even though late he realized it that time and even though Ennis was so hurt he wanted things to work out between them..If not living together then atleast meeting up and just spending sometime so that it can soothen the pain..However, the intensity of jack's love was realized by Ennis only after seeing the shirts...

I certainly think that it started in FC.  Ennis was definitely taken by surprise at the bitrerness of Jack's response to his threats.  It certainly showed him how much Jack was hurting deep inside.  But connecting this with Jack's love for him took some time, IMO.

[lauren]

If Jack hadn't brought up the fact that he had wanted to quit Ennis, Ennis would have no trouble continuing things the way it is. He was probably feeling as much pain and anger as Jack except that he love to keep all his emotions bottled up inside him. So he was just venting his frustrations on Jack to show him that he was hurting as much as he is. All this while when he was alone, he was probably thinking how to quit Jack himself. If Jack hadn't taken the initiative to kiss Ennis on the first tent scene, their love affair probably wouldn't have started in the first place and by their love affair beginning, so did all the pain and misery. So, Ennis could have meant that seeing that 'you can't lose what you never had', it's probably less painful if Jack had never kissed him or had never came back into his life after their time on Brokeback Mountain. He would never have hopes for their future together and his love for Jack wouldn't grow with each passing day, he wouldn't be missing him every second of every day and he wouldn't have to count the days until they can meet again. All these can be overwhelming for him, Ennis asking Jack to quit him could be a sign of his helplessness towards his feelings for Jack...

[tpe]

If Jack hadn't brought up the fact that he had wanted to quit Ennis, Ennis would have no trouble continuing things the way it is. He was probably feeling as much pain and anger as Jack except that he love to keep all his emotions bottled up inside him. So he was just venting his frustrations on Jack to show him that he was hurting as much as he is. All this while when he was alone, he was probably thinking how to quit Jack himself. If Jack hadn't taken the initiative to kiss Ennis on the first tent scene, their love affair probably wouldn't have started in the first place and by their love affair beginning, so did all the pain and misery. So, Ennis could have meant that seeing that 'you can't lose what you never had', it's probably less painful if Jack had never kissed him or had never came back into his life after their time on Brokeback Mountain. He would never have hopes for their future together and his love for Jack wouldn't grow with each passing day, he wouldn't be missing him every second of every day and he wouldn't have to count the days until they can meet again. All these can be overwhelming for him, Ennis asking Jack to quit him could be a sign of his helplessness towards his feelings for Jack...

I agree.  Ennis would have probably been content with the status quo, even if he was feeling as much pain as Jack.  He prided himself for being the stoic, not realizing that he was denying Jack and himself that happiness that was within their grasp.

[lauren]

I agree.  Ennis would have probably been content with the status quo, even if he was feeling as much pain as Jack.  He prided himself for being the stoic, not realizing that he was denying Jack and himself that happiness that was within their grasp.


[/quote]

If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.

[vedrana]

If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.

That is one of the things which make our anxiety even worse -knowing that in November things could have been better, and maybe Ennis would have give in. But the worst thing happened - Jack's death!

I was thinking - once one Brokie said (can't remember who) that he feels so bad about the words: it's because of you that I'm like this..." cos a man who was after him for a long time told him the same words. That happened after few months and this guy got married, but decided to look for that Brokie and suddenly it was his fault that this guy could not get over with their relationship.
What I want to know is - is it possible that one gay random/innocent relationship changes person to become gay for good?

In my mind Ennis would never have any physical or emotional relationship with any man if Jack "didn't happen". Maybe it would be the same for Jack... anyway less probably. But, can one profound relationship with the person of the same gender make someone become gay, in search for the same feeling they had with that particular person? (I don't know if this is off topic, but there were so many threads, and I usually miss to find it   )

[Lobsel-Vith]

That is one of the things which make our anxiety even worse -knowing that in November things could have been better, and maybe Ennis would have give in.But the worst thing happened - Jack's death!

I was thinking - once one Brokie said (can't remember who) that he feels so bad about the words: it's because of you that I'm like this..." cos a man who was after him for a long time told him the same words. That happened after few months and this guy got married, but decided to look for that Brokie and suddenly it was his fault that this guy could not get over with their relationship.
What I want to know is - is it possible that one gay random/innocent relationship changes person to become gay for good?

Oh the line that I had to emphasize was really beyond moving and now I have something else to wonder about... What if...? If Jack hadn't died, maybe Ennis would have given in and finally said 'let's just do it.." I can't help but feel sorrow now... Gosh, my case of PBS is just getting even more intense now. I doubt it will ever get to the level of the first two weeks after I saw BBM, but gosh... After re-watching it the other day, I saw Jack's eyes from when Ennis told him that it was his fault for how he was... The pain and sadness that came across Jack's face were powerful, and sad...

The second line, that I emphasized, I think that it could be possible. I mean, Jack and Ennis, especially Ennis, came up there just to work, not to fall in love, nor to have a relationship with another man. If Ennis hadn't gone to Brokeback, then he probably wouldn't have found his otherside, his emotional state that he got from being with Jack... Perhaps Jack wouldn't have either, maybe they would have lived their lives with that feeling of 'something' missing but never really knowing what that was.

[vedrana]

Oh the line that I had to emphasize was really beyond moving and now I have something else to wonder about... What if...? If Jack hadn't died, maybe Ennis would have given in and finally said 'let's just do it.." I can't help but feel sorrow now... Gosh, my case of PBS is just getting even more intense now. I doubt it will ever get to the level of the first two weeks after I saw BBM, but gosh... After re-watching it the other day, I saw Jack's eyes from when Ennis told him that it was his fault for how he was... The pain and sadness that came across Jack's face were powerful, and sad...

LV I know how you feel, cos I've been there ( all of us have!)
I was also devastated each time I found a little thing that showed me how close they were to have a sweet life. That hurts! A lot! :\'(

[tpe]

If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.

I tend to agree.  I think Ennis was on the cusp of conversion.  It was true that Jack had a great influence on who he was and who he was capable of being.  For one, Jack certainly sowed the seeds that made Ennis a more loving person.

[Lobsel-Vith]

I tend to agree.  I think Ennis was on the cusp of conversion.  It was true that Jack had a great influence on who he was and who he was capable of being.  For one, Jack certainly sowed the seeds that made Ennis a more loving person.

This can be seen in the parts where they are on Brokeback... "Friend, that's the most word that you've spoken in the last month..." or something similar to that quote. I also think that because of Jack, Ennis smiled more, and after their big fight, he felt really bad about it and one can see this in the bus depot when he's sitting there, deep in thought and sorrow while eating that piece of pie... 

 If it weren't for Jack, then Ennis wouldn't have probably been a more loving person.

[tpe]

This can be seen in the parts where they are on Brokeback... "Friend, that's the most word that you've spoken in the last month..." or something similar to that quote. I also think that because of Jack, Ennis smiled more, and after their big fight, he felt really bad about it and one can see this in the bus depot when he's sitting there, deep in thought and sorrow while eating that piece of pie... 

 If it weren't for Jack, then Ennis wouldn't have probably been a more loving person.

Yes, that scene is a perfect example of the other side of "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... ".  In the Last Confrontation, Ennis probably didn't remember the other side of this influence...

[vedrana]

Yes, that scene is a perfect example of the other side of "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... ".  In the Last Confrontation, Ennis probably didn't remember the other side of this influence...

That is all the same side, I believe. The side of Jack's love which made Ennis a loving person. Losing control in that love occasionally was his worst nightmare, but it was love -everywhere!

[tpe]

That is all the same side, I believe. The side of Jack's love which made Ennis a loving person. Losing control in that love occasionally was his worst nightmare, but it was love -everywhere!

Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?

[myprivatejack]

Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?

I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".

[vedrana]

Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?

I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".

Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real!  :\'(

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real!  :\'(

Yes,and I agree with you,Loreen ¡ Even a "no Brokie"person as my Alma,had to admit that this phrase is a way of telling Jack how much he loves and needs him.IMO this means a lot,no?.

[vedrana]

Yes,and I agree with you,Loreen ¡ Even a "no Brokie"person as my Alma,had to admit that this phrase is a way of telling Jack how much he loves and needs him.IMO this means a lot,no?.

Poor Ennis, just when he was attacked and so broken, he managed to say that Jack had changed him. Only that. But for Ennis that is a huge step. So sad!

I always think of the time between FC and the note that Jack was dead. That is a big mystery cos so many things went out during FC. Did they both tried to resolve that in themselves? Did their experiencing of the relationship thoroughly changed? 

[tpe]

I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".

Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real!  :\'(

I love the way MPJ puts is:  that it is a declaration of love, "Ennis Style".  This is a springboard to so much about Ennis and the way he loves...

[myprivatejack]

I love the way MPJ puts is:  that it is a declaration of love, "Ennis Style".  This is a springboard to so much about Ennis and the way he loves...

Thank you,Thomas ¡  In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.

[tpe]

Thank you,Thomas ¡  In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.

That is an interesting "translation", indeed!  Hmmm, I am trying to decide whether it says more than was originally intended.  But perhaps it is an accuate transliteration, if not a literal translation....

[myprivatejack]

That is an interesting "translation", indeed!  Hmmm, I am trying to decide whether it says more than was originally intended.  But perhaps it is an accuate transliteration, if not a literal translation....

Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.

[vedrana]

Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.

Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere.