Author Topic: The 101 Kisses of BBM (Read 50851 times)

tpe · « **on:** Dec 15, 2006, 09:39 AM »

No, I didn't count the number of kisses to be 101! What I want to suggest by the title is that kisses and kissing feature so prominently in many of the scenes: from the cold distant kiss exchanged between Jack and Lureen to the dizzying hights of the Reunion Kiss.

And I should also include in this thread a discusssion of the most prominent scenes where kissing did NOT actually occur: as in the near-kiss of the FNIT and the Dozy Embrace, whose power matches any kiss.

I got this idea from greenfrog's post about kisses being one of the symbols we shall forever associate with BBM. Let us open this thread to a discussion of kisses in BBM, as well as of their absence in many of the important scenes.

tpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 09:46 AM »

To start, I find it rather odd that in all the scenes between Ennis and Cassie (at least all those retained in the final version of the movie), we never see them kiss, am I right? If I am correct in this observation, then I would say that such an omission is very telling. What does it tell us of the relationship between the two of them? I would assume that as (reluctant?) lovers, they must have exchanged kisses at one time or another. And yet, no such kiss was shown in the movie...

welshwitch · « **Reply #2 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 09:56 AM »

There must be a reason - for me it's that there is no real depth of affection or commitment to Cassie on Ennis's side. If you look at the various kisses he gives Alma, right from the reluctant, prompted one at the wedding through the honeymoon and their life together, they vary but never appear to convey overwhelming passion. There's only one person he kisses that way.....

tpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 10:05 AM »

I would assume it is a mark of alienation between the sexes. I was re-reading Yasunari Kawabata's "The Old Capital" on my way back from London, and it also dwells heavily on the same sense of alienation (none of the lovers kiss, of course; the only kiss was the one exchanged between the elder father and the young geisha.)

Yes, it may very well mean that both were simply in love with the idea of being in love -- and not with one another. And yet the tears shed by Cassie in the end seem real enough. Perhaps the illusion is too great. But the absence of true intimacy is underlined by the absence of any kiss shared between the two of them...

lamusica · « **Reply #4 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 02:36 PM »

When Ennis refers to his affair with Cassie he calls it "putting the blocks to" -- not loving, or even f---ing. He shows no feeling towards her and what they are doing together. Cassie, on the other hand, says she loved Ennis. Again, another woman loving Ennis and getting nowhere because Ennis' head just isn't with them. He's fixated on Jack and that's all she wrote.
I think the kiss while sledding shows Ennis is fond of Alma -- probably loves her as much as a lot of men love their wives. There's just no passion there as there is with Jack -- thus the hot kisses with Jack. Those kisses aren't for show. They are necessary and wonderful -- life-giving to the love between the two men.

aimi15 · « **Reply #5 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 05:38 PM »

This is an interesting thread. I couldn't help but be reminded of the old myth/legend/idea that prostitutes/escorts will do everything except kiss, it's like kissing reaches a level of intimacy that plain sex can't. that reminds me very much of the relationship between Ennis/Alma/Cassie, Jack/Lureen. I know some kisses are shown but there is a passion lacking that i only see between Jack and Ennis. Any other relationship seems to be just a means to an end. Jack/Ennis kisses are pure, animal, open mouthed, saliva exchanging, soul kisses - the others seem to pale in comparison.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #6 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 07:57 PM »

Your so right about this. The kisses between Jack and Ennis are very passionate and so powerfuuly urgent that you almost taste them yourself. Especially the reunion kisses! But my fav kiss remains in SNIT. It was their first kiss. You can just tell that Jack has been wanting and waiting to do this for a long long time. That "I just want to taste this right now, this moment" kiss was so soft , so tender as if something majical was drawing him to it. And Ennis, he wanted Jack to lead him , telling Jack shyly with his eyes that he was ready to "go there". Bashfully inviting him. Trying to say what he could not speak out loud with his eyes. Wanting what he had denied Jack the FNIT. Jack wanted to kiss him then I beleive too , but that was too much ,too soon then. But in SNIT he was ready, after coming to an understanding with himself concerning his feelings enough to allow Jack to lead him right where he wanted to go, beginning with that sweet hot, wet, kiss. Yum.

I love all of this movie but this scene and this kiss made a beleiver out of me. Thanks

lamusica · « **Reply #7 on:** Dec 16, 2006, 09:55 PM »

That's my favorite kiss in the movie, also. I think it's because it is so tentative. Jack wasn't sure how Ennis would react. Would he kiss him back? Would he rebuff him? Would he just kiss him perfunctorily? When Ennis first allowed the kiss, the viewer wonders, too. It is clear that Jack is the aggressor, but how will Ennis respond. When he finally kisses Jack back, we all breathe a sigh of relief because now we know where this is heading. There's something here a lot deeper than just sex. A kiss isn't just a kiss; it's a commitment of participation and complicity. I love all the kisses, but this one beats them all in my book.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #8 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 05:13 AM »

Exactly right. Jack was definitly the "leader during this, but it's what Ennis wanted. He wanted to be led. Could'nt quite express it but Just the fact that he was there, in the tent to Jack's surpise, expressed alot to Jack and Ennis as well. I can't even imagine how Jack must have felt when he saw Ennis at the door of the tent. He must have wanted to yell YESSSSS!, and do a happy dance. ( I know I did) This symbolized so much too. Their bonding was sealed with this kiss The tentativeness of it adds to the eroctic flavor (that's just me).

tpe · « **Reply #9 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 11:21 AM »

Friends, what do you think about the struggle between Ennis and Jack during the FNIT? Do you think it was an aborted kiss that was shown?

It seemed to me that they were struggling with the thought of kissing each other at that moment. They were fighting against their feelings, because, as was said, kissing would signify a higher meaning -- something they dare not acknowledge during the FNIT. I think that this struggle only found resolution in the kiss of the SNIT. In this sense, we can think of the FNIT and the SNIT as connected scenes -- the latter the culmination/fruition of what was begun and left uncompleted in the former.

NoReins · « **Reply #10 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 01:49 PM »

I think Jack wanted to kiss Ennis in the FNIT Thomas....he tries several times to bring Ennis' mouth to his but I think he sees in Ennis' eyes that he's not ready for that. Ennis clearly feels that flipping Jack over and taking him is less intimate than kissing, which certainly suggests a connection on an emotional level rather than a purely physical one.

The discussion above about the SNIT kisses is superb. Although there is something beautiful about their first kiss, for me, the most perfect moment of all is once Jack is lying on top of Ennis, when Ennis raises his head off the bedroll and kisses Jack back. That's the moment he really gives in to everything he's feeling and falls in love, I think.

welshwitch · « **Reply #11 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 02:49 PM »

They could, if they didn't show any affection, pass the thing off next day as a product of drink and frustration ( I mean in the sense of having no women around) and laugh it off as just one of those things you do when you aren't sober. Could even present it as some sort of sign of the strength of their sexual desires in the way that some men makle a big thing about telling you how they can't go a day without sex.But kissing someone or even making any sort of affectionate gesture is a whole different thing. Then you're admitting that affection is involved and that you know what you are doing to show it - you're admitting to feelings, not just physical urges.

I wonder if at the beginning of the FNIT sequence Jack thought he might kiss Ennis as a sign that he wantd more than just a quick f**k, then Ennis ressited and Jack let him do whatever he wanted rather than scare him away by asking for what he wasn't prepared to give.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #12 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 03:53 PM »

Jack tried several times to kiss Ennis in FNIT, but Ennis resisted, turning away , putting his head down etc. I agree with you WW. Jack quickly got it that Ennis was'nt ready yet for this ultimate ,very intimate gesture and settled for the foreheads touching instead. I beleive Jack with his eyes closed and nuzzling against Ennis's face was trying to show Ennis the extent of his feelings for him. Saying to Ennis that he had fallen for him and desired intimacy with him. So urgent and determined to do so . Ennis, at first appeared to be unbeleivably shocked at what Jack was doing. But it turned him on to a great degree. I don't think he expected to feel this way either, but eventually gave in to the seduction that Jack so blatenly laid on him. When Jack unbuckled his pants, there was no doubt in Ennis's mind where Jack was taking this, and decided he'd better take the lead not knowing what Jack, being in control was going to require of him to do. At this point though Jack was willing to go along with wherever direction Ennis wanted to go. He wanted itimacy with him, anyway he could get it kisses or no kisses. He wanted to be Ennis's first lover and the opportunity to better gauge where Ennis's feeling llie about him. His suspicions were confirmed, he'd guessed right. In SNIT when he did get the chance to control the intimacy, he smothered Ennis with kisses.Sweet.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #13 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 10:23 PM »

Not too much to add because the prior posts say it all so well but yes, Thomas, Jack was trying to kiss Ennis during FNIT. That makes SNIT so much more romantic to me- Ennis had done his thinking, they had their little talk and then Ennis takes this huge step by going into the tent, hat in hand and surrending himself to Jack.

tpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 09:21 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Dec 18, 2006, 01:49 PM

I think Jack wanted to kiss Ennis in the FNIT Thomas....he tries several times to bring Ennis' mouth to his but I think he sees in Ennis' eyes that he's not ready for that. Ennis clearly feels that flipping Jack over and taking him is less intimate than kissing, which certainly suggests a connection on an emotional level rather than a purely physical one.

The discussion above about the SNIT kisses is superb. Although there is something beautiful about their first kiss, for me, the most perfect moment of all is once Jack is lying on top of Ennis, when Ennis raises his head off the bedroll and kisses Jack back. That's the moment he really gives in to everything he's feeling and falls in love, I think.

Wonderfully said, Lindsay! Yes, the act of flipping Jack over seemed less an intimacy to Ennis. For one, they don't have to see each other's faces during the act. Which is why your comment about Jack lying on top of Ennis makes absolutely perfect sense. Ennis seemed to have difficulty keeping his eyes open -- he was still struggling at looking at their love in the face. And yet he allows Jack to lead him on and he inevitable responds. That is the way he finally acknowledges the feeling between them: by the act of returning Jack's kiss with a kiss.

tpe · « **Reply #15 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 09:26 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Dec 18, 2006, 02:49 PM

I wonder if at the beginning of the FNIT sequence Jack thought he might kiss Ennis as a sign that he wantd more than just a quick f**k, then Ennis ressited and Jack let him do whatever he wanted rather than scare him away by asking for what he wasn't prepared to give.

This too. I think Jack wanted Ennis, and he was not prepared to quibble in the way that Ennis would have him at that very moment.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #16 on:** Dec 30, 2006, 04:04 AM »

No Jack was'nt looking for any formal ceremonies or fancy words and Ennis was'nt scrambling for any instruction manuals either. We're talkin raw, urgent desire in these two. The build up to this moment, a slow train coming so to speak, was a spectacle of longing, desire,and trust. I think the atraction was there from the start, especially on Jack's part. More open with his than Ennis, But Ennis had to see something in Jack to agree to spend long hours alone on a mountain all summer with him. When these two came together I was shocked I must admit at the raw urgency of this scene. But I was also rivited to the screen as this unfolded. Jack's determination to put a face to these feelings they BOTH felt by this time bringing Ennis along to see it ...and see himself too. He got a better look in SNIT. 2 cents

roconner · « **Reply #17 on:** Dec 30, 2006, 06:31 PM »

In my heart I believe this was love at first sight for both of them. It slowly blossomed from their first tentative glances outside Aguirre's trailer and inside also. In the trailer, Ennis was the first to glance Jack's way.

Jack was gentle with Ennis getting him to slowly open up and come out of his shell.
Making a fool of himself, just to amuse him.

I think that when Ennis remarked that he had not yet had the opprotunity to be a sinner,
it was a subtle hint thrown Jack's way. He was open to more than just ordinary friendship.

Getting drunk together was the perfect excuse to explore their mutual interest in each other,
which is often the case with 2 unsophisticated men.

Ennis held back on the first night, still constrained by the doubts and fears of his childhood.

But after a day full of self-examination, he let his heart rule over his mind. Returning Jack's kiss
that night was his full-blown declaration of love.

Of course this is just my take on it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #18 on:** Dec 31, 2006, 02:35 AM »

I wonder what Jack meant by " fellas like you and me" march off to hell? Was he insinuating something? or was he fishing for information about Ennis's sexual experiences? Ennis says " you may be a sinner"...."But I've yet to have the opportunity"
I think FNIT happened as a result of the mutual feelings they had for each other. In case there was any hesitation to put some real meaning behind these feelings and commummate them, the alcohol removed it. This is another reason I have to beleive that Jack orchestrated this FNIT in a major way, ( though Ennis definitly or quickly became a willing partner, just needed a little nudge) because of what he knew and charming insight into Ennis himself. At first he tried to coax Ennis into the tent . Then later he laid awake and appeared to be a little frustrated when he finally demanded Ennis "get in here"

I have to beleive this was more than about Ennis being "cold". Was Ennis's "hammering" really that loud? He was clear across the way from the tent. Jack had to be awake thinking about this IMO. I think Ennis's "stalling" was starting to get to him. He knew that he felt the same things he did but did'nt know how to express it. Once he decided to confirm his suspicions things took on a natural flow, the slow build up resulting in this raw,urgent, and very erotic lovemaking session known as the FNIT.

welshwitch · « **Reply #19 on:** Dec 31, 2006, 02:26 PM »

I think the "fellas like you and me" comment is simply a hang-over from his upbringing - children were often taught that if you didn't go to church regularly, say your prayers, avoid all sorts of "sinful" things, you'd go to hell.And getting involved with another man, far less kissing him or having sex with him, would certainly qualify.

tpe · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 10:13 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 30, 2006, 04:04 AM

No Jack was'nt looking for any formal ceremonies or fancy words and Ennis was'nt scrambling for any instruction manuals either. We're talkin raw, urgent desire in these two. The build up to this moment, a slow train coming so to speak, was a spectacle of longing, desire,and trust. I think the atraction was there from the start, especially on Jack's part. More open with his than Ennis, But Ennis had to see something in Jack to agree to spend long hours alone on a mountain all summer with him. When these two came together I was shocked I must admit at the raw urgency of this scene. But I was also rivited to the screen as this unfolded. Jack's determination to put a face to these feelings they BOTH felt by this time bringing Ennis along to see it ...and see himself too. He got a better look in SNIT. 2 cents

Yes, there was indeed rasw urgency to this. The only other kiss that reflects a similar raw urgency was the Reunion kiss.

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 10:15 AM »

Quote from: roco on Dec 30, 2006, 06:31 PM

In my heart I believe this was love at first sight for both of them. It slowly blossomed from their first tentative glances outside Aguirre's trailer and inside also. In the trailer, Ennis was the first to glance Jack's way.

Jack was gentle with Ennis getting him to slowly open up and come out of his shell.
Making a fool of himself, just to amuse him.

I think that when Ennis remarked that he had not yet had the opprotunity to be a sinner,
it was a subtle hint thrown Jack's way. He was open to more than just ordinary friendship.

Getting drunk together was the perfect excuse to explore their mutual interest in each other,
which is often the case with 2 unsophisticated men.

Ennis held back on the first night, still constrained by the doubts and fears of his childhood.

But after a day full of self-examination, he let his heart rule over his mind. Returning Jack's kiss
that night was his full-blown declaration of love.

Of course this is just my take on it.

This is my take on this, also. IN a way, it was still a reluctant kiss (with the eyes trying not to see), but it was an affirmation kiss, nonetheless.

It was their first true kiss.

lamusica · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 04, 2007, 04:40 PM »

When Ennis first allowed Jack to kiss him, he responded very tentatively, as you said above. However, when they lay down, Ennis raises his head to be kissed. I consider this to be Ennis first 100% willing, willful kiss. He wanted Jack and was willing at that moment to let Jack know he was into this thing for the duration. It's just that little movement of raising his head that says it all to me. Had he just lain there and let Jack kiss him, the meaning would be quite different. (JMHP)

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 04, 2007, 04:54 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 04, 2007, 04:40 PM

When Ennis first allowed Jack to kiss him, he responded very tentatively, as you said above. However, when they lay down, Ennis raises his head to be kissed. I consider this to be Ennis first 100% willing, willful kiss. He wanted Jack and was willing at that moment to let Jack know he was into this thing for the duration. It's just that little movement of raising his head that says it all to me. Had he just lain there and let Jack kiss him, the meaning would be quite different. (JMHP)

This is quite true. And such a wonderful detail that speaks volumes. Thanks lamusica. It is indeed the sign that Ennis does this willfully, willingly.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 06, 2007, 05:20 AM »

Compared to the kisses ( I say pecks) they gave their wives in the film their own kisses were two freight trains coliding. The head raising to meet Jack's kisses were from a very willing Ennis indeed , and he kicked it up a notch when he pulled Jack over on top. And Jack willingly obliged. OMG I totally lost it when I first saw this. Still do.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 08, 2007, 11:45 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 06, 2007, 05:20 AM

Compared to the kisses ( I say pecks) they gave their wives in the film their own kisses were two freight trains coliding. The head raising to meet Jack's kisses were from a very willing Ennis indeed , and he kicked it up a notch when he pulled Jack over on top. And Jack willingly obliged. OMG I totally lost it when I first saw this. Still do.

The only other kisses exchanged with much hunger was the love scene between Lureen and Jack inside the car. These kisses do project lstrong ust and passion. At that moment, I don't think that there was that much deep love between the two of them.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:13 PM »

In terms of the urgency, yes Lureen was definitly way ahead of Jack. But he liked the direction she took it. LOL! That look in his eyes makes me smile. Apparently he had'nt been "taken" this way by a woman before. I think he liked the aggression. Besides she had to be in before midnight.

tpe · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:31 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 09, 2007, 02:13 PM

In terms of the urgency, yes Lureen was definitly way ahead of Jack. But he liked the direction she took it. LOL! That look in his eyes makes me smile. Apparently he had'nt been "taken" this way by a woman before. I think he liked the aggression. Besides she had to be in before midnight.

It's interesting to note that Jack was relatively passive with Lureen. Of course, he was active in the sense that he was the penetrator and she the penetrated, but he was definitely passive in that he allowed Lureen to do her will with him (was she on top all the time, I wonder?)

More to the topic, he mostly received her kisses. This is quite interesting psychologically speaking. It was as if Jack was certain about his charms and attractiveness to the female sex and acted in a blatantly confident manner -- waiting to be serviced, so to speak. This leads me to suspect that he must have had prior experiences with women -- although given that he waited for Lureen to make the first move, I would hazard that the women came to him, and not he to them.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:50 PM »

Being aware of his true leanings, it's probably necessary for the woman to make the first move on him. Though he accepted their kisses, being a sexually confident man ,it probably was'nt as enjoyable as if it was another male though, especially if he had feelings for the guy. SNIT proved this where was he was definitly the agressor. When you compare the kisses between Jack/Lureen and the ones with Jack/Ennis it's like night and day.

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:55 PM »

I do think he was more flattered than anything else being attractive to a sex that was probably not his first preference. This is consistent with the way he received the kisses.

But did he experience pleasure with the young Lureen? Probably. There was a humger in his kisses that was not fake. The hunger was almost brutal -- as if he needed the release, not having what he truly wanted.

Author Topic: The 101 Kisses of BBM (Read 50851 times)

aimi15

roconner