Author Topic: The 101 Kisses of BBM  (Read 50863 times)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #60 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:29 PM »
Yeah, but even in the love scenes between Ennis and Alma, I did'nt see  or feel the the passion  between them. Not like between him and Jack. He was just going through the motions with her.It was only a pretense for his real feelings.This is what I got.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #61 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:49 PM »
Agreed.  But it's not passion that we see in the kiss he gives Alma before going off with Jack: it has more of a tender, caring quality.  Or was he sorry for Alma?  I think it shows more of genuine tenderness than sorrow.  I think that he did genuinely care for her then -- even as he goes of with the one person he truly loves.


Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #62 on: Jan 17, 2007, 06:46 PM »
It ocurred to me the other night that Ennis says "come here" to both Jack and Alma, just before the reunion kiss, and then when he kisses Alma goodbye the next morning. I'm not saying there's any significance in that, it's a normal thing to say, but the fact that he says the same words before each kiss just emphasises how differently he says it, and how different the kisses were.
I think thre's genuine affection there when Ennis kisses Alma, as well as guilt that he's betraying her, but there's no passion whatsoever (I agree with aintfoolin, I don't see any passion in any of their scenes together) unlike when he kisses Jack. Ennis knows that Alma can never come close to making him feel the way Jack does, but he knows that "ain't her fault", and I think he feels the need, as jacks_key says, to reassure her that he still loves her in his own way, and to reassure himself too, that he's still a regular straight guy with a wife and kids, even as he can't wait to get away with Jack.   
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #63 on: Jan 17, 2007, 07:03 PM »
You reminded me of the "ain't her fault" part of the conversation with Jack.  Perhaps then -- in the light of this thought expressed by Ennis -- there is an element of GUILT in that kiss Ennis gives Alma right before he leaves with Jack for the fishing trip.  Tenderness and affection can come about because of guilt, no?  Still, I suspect that even without the sense of guilt, Ennis did have genuine affection for Alma, and it would have showed in his kisses, at least before their marriage deteriorated.


Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #64 on: Jan 17, 2007, 07:21 PM »
You reminded me of the "ain't her fault" part of the conversation with Jack.  Perhaps then -- in the light of this thought expressed by Ennis -- there is an element of GUILT in that kiss Ennis gives Alma right before he leaves with Jack for the fishing trip.  Tenderness and affection can come about because of guilt, no?   Still, I suspect that even without the sense of guilt, Ennis did have genuine affection for Alma, and it would have showed in his kisses, at least before their marriage deteriorated.



I totally agree, in fact I think it's precisely because Ennis does care for Alma that he feels guilty about betraying her, if he didn't feel genuine love (albeit in a different way to the love he has for Jack) for her, he wouldn't care that he was betraying her.  *o) This is in contrast to Jack's attitude to Lureen, he would leave her without a second thought to go off with Ennis, which suggests that whatever feelings he might have had for Lureen had pretty much disappeared by the time he gets back in touch with Ennis.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline chameau

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #65 on: Jan 17, 2007, 07:29 PM »
The kiss Ennis gave to Alma right before he goes off with Jack during the reunion has always fascinated me.  What did it exactly mean?  I don't think he kissed Alma insincerely.  It was tender and full of genuine feeling.  And yet, Ennis knew (and Alma knew) that it was a kiss of betrayal.  Was it supposed to reassure Alma?  Was Ennis still battling with his feelings.  Although Ennis loved Jack, I think that in a way, he did love Alma...

He was sincere but was feeling guilty, he cheated on Alma the night before which he never did before his marriage.  For me it's obvious he was sure feeling guilty but he didn't knew Alma saw him and Jack kissing.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #66 on: Jan 18, 2007, 05:41 AM »
And his plight of guilt was'nt helped at all with little Alma running up to him talking about " bring big fish home" and he quickly hands her to Alma. At this point it's clear he was in one world with Jack and Alma was in another. I think he loved  and cared for Alma too, but he was'nt "in love" with her. This little "peck" was out of guilt, and  Jack was waiting downstairs. He knew he could'nt stay and after what she'd seen, she knew he WOULD'NT stay. She never really had him anyway. My take.
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #67 on: Jan 18, 2007, 08:00 AM »
Are you saying it's some sort of Judas kiss?

It seems to me a mixture, partly conventional - when you're going off somewhere you kiss your wife goodbye, ad Ennis is nothing if not (outwardly) conventional - and partly the result of guilt. He knows they're going to go on as they did the night before and thus in conventioanl terms he is betraying Alma ( though in some moods I think the whole thing with Alma is one long betrayal of Jack).

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #68 on: Jan 18, 2007, 08:22 AM »
I totally agree, in fact I think it's precisely because Ennis does care for Alma that he feels guilty about betraying her, if he didn't feel genuine love (albeit in a different way to the love he has for Jack) for her, he wouldn't care that he was betraying her.  *o) This is in contrast to Jack's attitude to Lureen, he would leave her without a second thought to go off with Ennis, which suggests that whatever feelings he might have had for Lureen had pretty much disappeared by the time he gets back in touch with Ennis.

I would agree.  The kiss that Jack gave Lureen at the end of the "blue parka" scene is described in the screenplay as distant, and barely touching.  This is in effect what was enacted.

Jack's kisses to Lureen as shown in the film are either like this or simply exhibit by lust or desire.  And yet I have no doubt that Jack did feel genuine affection for Lureen in the beginning -- it was not Jack's way to NOT be affectionate, I think.  But his affection cooled when Lureen cooled.  This can be seen in the "blue parka" kiss.

I think in the final years, they were not kissing at all -- else, any kiss they would have exchanged would have been simply an automatic act -- devoid of any true meaning or emotion.

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #69 on: Jan 18, 2007, 08:23 AM »
He was sincere but was feeling guilty, he cheated on Alma the night before which he never did before his marriage.  For me it's obvious he was sure feeling guilty but he didn't knew Alma saw him and Jack kissing.

Yes, it was a good thing he didn't know.  I don't think he would have been able to kiss her at all if he knew that she knew.


Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #70 on: Jan 18, 2007, 08:26 AM »
And his plight of guilt was'nt helped at all with little Alma running up to him talking about " bring big fish home" and he quickly hands her to Alma. At this point it's clear he was in one world with Jack and Alma was in another. I think he loved  and cared for Alma too, but he was'nt "in love" with her. This little "peck" was out of guilt, and  Jack was waiting downstairs. He knew he could'nt stay and after what she'd seen, she knew he WOULD'NT stay. She never really had him anyway. My take.

It is interesting that in the end, you only saw them kissing while attempting to make love -- again, in a context purely driven by desire.

It is telling that at the end of the "power company" scene, you expected Ennis to kiss Alma when she said "forgot something?"  Of course, they never kissed.  I think they had drifted too far apart at this point.




Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #71 on: Jan 18, 2007, 08:31 AM »
Are you saying it's some sort of Judas kiss?

It seems to me a mixture, partly conventional - when you're going off somewhere you kiss your wife goodbye, ad Ennis is nothing if not (outwardly) conventional - and partly the result of guilt. He knows they're going to go on as they did the night before and thus in conventioanl terms he is betraying Alma ( though in some moods I think the whole thing with Alma is one long betrayal of Jack).

It's not exactly a Judas kiss as there was some remorse and true affection at that point on Ennis's part (Judas only showed remorse much later).  The original Greek of the Gospel uses a word that denotes an unclean kiss to describe Judas's kiss -- a kiss similar to that given by a prostitute to a client, or a kiss that was sexually charged.  I don't think this was the context and mood of Ennis's kiss.

 

Offline donnaread

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #72 on: Jan 25, 2007, 04:31 PM »
To start, I find it rather odd that in all the scenes between Ennis and Cassie (at least all those retained in the final version of the movie), we never see them kiss, am I right?  If I am correct in this observation, then I would say that such an omission is very telling.  What does it tell us of the relationship between the two of them?  I would assume that as (reluctant?) lovers, they must have exchanged kisses at one time or another.  And yet, no such kiss was shown in the movie...


No, Ennis and Cassie are never shown kissing.  In fact I don't think Ennis would have ever dated Cassie, OR made a move on another women.  She came on to him so strongly, its possible that Ennis just went with the flow.  He was worried about people thinking he was queer...as is evidenced in the conversation with Jack beside the stream "they look at you like they all know".  So I think he used her to make people believe he was straight.  I think Ennis thought she would make him appear "normal."  But the relationship doesn't seem to have lasted very long.  He soon begins avoiding her.  He probably found another bar to drink in, so if she came by his house he wouldn't be there.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #73 on: Jan 25, 2007, 04:40 PM »
No, Ennis and Cassie are never shown kissing.  In fact I don't think Ennis would have ever dated Cassie, OR made a move on another women.  She came on to him so strongly, its possible that Ennis just went with the flow.  He was worried about people thinking he was queer...as is evidenced in the conversation with Jack beside the stream "they look at you like they all know".  So I think he used her to make people believe he was straight.  I think Ennis thought she would make him appear "normal."  But the relationship doesn't seem to have lasted very long.  He soon begins avoiding her.  He probably found another bar to drink in, so if she came by his house he wouldn't be there.

The short story perhaps seems to indicate that Cassie had been to Ennis's home, because the cheap white wine that he uses to toast Jr's wedding is supposedly a left-over from his time with Cassie.

It could be possible that they dated (wasn't the scene with Cassie and Jr a kind of double-date?), but I do agree that Ennis was tepid about all the entire affair and seemed to have dealt with Cassie without much passion...

They certainly were not shown kissing.  That detail is telling...



Offline donnaread

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #74 on: Jan 25, 2007, 04:54 PM »
When Ennis refers to his affair with Cassie he calls it "putting the blocks to" -- not loving, or even f---ing.  He shows no feeling towards her and what they are doing together.  Cassie, on the other hand, says she loved Ennis.  Again, another woman loving Ennis and getting nowhere because Ennis' head just isn't with them.  He's fixated on Jack and that's all she wrote.
I think the kiss while sledding shows Ennis is fond of Alma -- probably loves her as much as a lot of men love their wives.  There's just no passion there as there is with Jack -- thus the hot kisses with Jack.  Those kisses aren't for show.  They are necessary and wonderful -- life-giving to the love between the two men.
Yes even the first time they show Ennis and Alma making love, the girls are still really small, so they haven't been married that long.  They kiss, but it doesn't seem to be with much passion.  He lays her down on her back and turns out the light.  She's saying, "Come here," trying to make him kiss her.  He kisses her almost dutifully, but next thing you know he's turning her over and "does quickly what she hates" as the story says.  I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did.  I felt so sorry for her.  Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.
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Offline stephan

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #75 on: Jan 25, 2007, 05:05 PM »
(...)  I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did.  I felt so sorry for her.  Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.

Alma's predicament did hurt her, and she could only remain "dutifully" married to Ennis for a few years. I found the second bedroom scene between Ennis and Alma even sadder. Alma was upset about missing the evening at the church, and she revenged herself on Ennis by mentioning his incapacity to earn a better salary  :-\\

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #76 on: Jan 27, 2007, 02:14 PM »
 Oh, yes I agree with  so many of you.

Both these woman, Alma and Cassie, were looking for some sort of validation that they even existed to Ennis.  Alma's provoking Ennis at Thanksgiving,  She wanted him to feel the pain she felt all those years ago,  even though she's married, having a baby, and living in a real house provided by the Supermarket guy. She still couldn't it let go, she wanted to see some kind reaction from Ennis, and she got it.   Cassie, by asking Alma, Jr.  her father would marry again, was sad,  apparently she had no idea of where she stood with Ennis, or how deep their relationship went.   If she have to go his daughter for answers, the question she should have asked herself was "How deep is he into me?"

Offline lamusica

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #77 on: Jan 28, 2007, 01:31 PM »
Along with what you just said, Manhattangirl, the kisses Ennis shares with Alma are sexless indeed.  They're tender ( while sledding and at the wedding), but without passion.  With Jack, though, there's no restraints.  He doesn't need to be tender with Jack. He can let out the real force of his feelings and need - thus the bone-crushing kisses.  I think the second kiss at the reunion scene is the hottest I have ever seen on screen.  Jack kisses Ennis in response to Ennis's kiss a few seconds earlier, but Jack puts everything into that kiss.  He is brutal.  They were so physically close at that time, they were almost climbing into each other.  This is the definitive definition of a passionate kiss, in MO.  My favorite in the movie, for sure.
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Offline jacks_key

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #78 on: Jan 28, 2007, 01:38 PM »
^^I completely agree.  The reunion kiss is probably the hottest kiss I have ever seen in a movie.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #79 on: Jan 29, 2007, 09:44 AM »
Yes even the first time they show Ennis and Alma making love, the girls are still really small, so they haven't been married that long.  They kiss, but it doesn't seem to be with much passion.  He lays her down on her back and turns out the light.  She's saying, "Come here," trying to make him kiss her.  He kisses her almost dutifully, but next thing you know he's turning her over and "does quickly what she hates" as the story says.  I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did.  I felt so sorry for her.  Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.

Those kisses he gave Alma during that scene -- they were clearly meant for another, as is hinted at by the "flip" scene...

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #80 on: Jan 29, 2007, 09:47 AM »
Alma's predicament did hurt her, and she could only remain "dutifully" married to Ennis for a few years. I found the second bedroom scene between Ennis and Alma even sadder. Alma was upset about missing the evening at the church, and she revenged herself on Ennis by mentioning his incapacity to earn a better salary  :-\\

Yes, the kisses in those scene are certainly sad kisses, no?  There was no real fire in them.  They were just fulfilling a need in that scene.  It seemed to be devoid of ddper feelings for each other.



Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #81 on: Jan 29, 2007, 09:51 AM »
Oh, yes I agree with  so many of you.

Both these woman, Alma and Cassie, were looking for some sort of validation that they even existed to Ennis.  Alma's provoking Ennis at Thanksgiving,  She wanted him to feel the pain she felt all those years ago,  even though she's married, having a baby, and living in a real house provided by the Supermarket guy. She still couldn't it let go, she wanted to see some kind reaction from Ennis, and she got it.   Cassie, by asking Alma, Jr.  her father would marry again, was sad,  apparently she had no idea of where she stood with Ennis, or how deep their relationship went.   If she have to go his daughter for answers, the question she should have asked herself was "How deep is he into me?"

Beautifully said, manhattangirl.  Thank you.

It was a validation of some sort.  They wanted to validate that they mattered in his life.  What is telling in the case of Cassie is that we never see them kiss -- it is symptomatic of the lack of true intmacy between them.  That was why Cassie needed some 3rd party to validate this for her.






Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #82 on: Jan 29, 2007, 09:53 AM »
Along with what you just said, Manhattangirl, the kisses Ennis shares with Alma are sexless indeed.  They're tender ( while sledding and at the wedding), but without passion.  With Jack, though, there's no restraints.  He doesn't need to be tender with Jack. He can let out the real force of his feelings and need - thus the bone-crushing kisses.  I think the second kiss at the reunion scene is the hottest I have ever seen on screen.  Jack kisses Ennis in response to Ennis's kiss a few seconds earlier, but Jack puts everything into that kiss.  He is brutal.  They were so physically close at that time, they were almost climbing into each other.  This is the definitive definition of a passionate kiss, in MO.  My favorite in the movie, for sure.

The kisses shared between Jack and Ennis -- every other kiss in the movie pales in comparison....

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #83 on: Jan 29, 2007, 09:55 AM »
How about the kiss of death?

In some perverse way, I had envisioned Jack's murder as a sylized form of the act itself.  It is as if one envisions the tire iron administering brutal kisses.

Sorry for sounding so morbid.  I can't help it...

 

Offline lamusica

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #84 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:38 AM »
Rather than morbid, I think the kiss of death idea is just sad.   My mind doesn't want to go there with the tire iron.  I want to block that tiny snippet of a scene.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #85 on: Jan 30, 2007, 11:41 AM »
Thanks lamusica.  I do find it heartbreaking.  But I just call to mind a certain screencap that shows the tire iron touching Jack's bloody face on the lips.  It is as if he kisses the instrument of martyrdom in death.


Offline JT

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #86 on: Jan 30, 2007, 01:01 PM »
That was indeed one ugly brutal scene.  That tire iron layed across his face breaking his nose.  Too painful to watch.

Offline tpe

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #87 on: Jan 30, 2007, 01:07 PM »
That was indeed one ugly brutal scene.  That tire iron layed across his face breaking his nose.  Too painful to watch.

But there is lyricism in that scene also, because we hear nothing.  Do you know what I mean?  It is like the tire iron administering the kiss of death.  The reality must be infinitely brutal, with the "kiss" spattering blood and flesh everywhere...


Offline JT

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #88 on: Jan 30, 2007, 01:34 PM »
The songs of death and hate drowning the songs of love and life (Jack) and that leathal blow or kiss ends it all.  Yes, thats how I see that ugly scene.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The 101 Kisses of BBM
« Reply #89 on: Jan 30, 2007, 04:33 PM »
Yes After all this time I cannot watch the "death scene" without covering my eyes or sqinting. It's so powerfully brutal and sad.
I just happenesd to watch the reunion scene last night and I must say this award winning kiss is the stuff dreams are made of. Ennis had waited all friggin day to do this. The look in his eyes when he laid eyes on Jack again after four years (sigh). Wild horses coud'nt have stopped him from running down those steps to feel Jack in his arms again. I don't know how much planning Ennis did or if it was a spur of the moment thing, but when he laid that SWEET kiss on Jack I thought about the contrasting passion element with those he gave Alma. FORGETABOUTIT!. This was pure raw desire at it's finest. I was so happy for Jack ,( the suprised look on his face ) was priceless. He totally did not expect this Ennis though he had high hopes. His statement "Oh God" before he himself gave as well as he got is very telling.Alma? Who's Alma?....Damn!
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