Topic: was ennis gay ?

[tpe]

If he was or not gay he enjoy the Jack love

This is certainly beyond dispute. 

welshwitch  raisies an interesting point: whether anything outwardly distinguished Ennis from Jack -- whether something marked him as clearly "different".  I guess this is related to proulxfan's observation.  It reveals more of Ennis's internal state of mind -- more than any external action.



 

[welshwitch]

It must have been apparently easier for Jack to look " normal"; he had a wife and child, whereas Ennis lived alone, was divorced and after the Thanksgiving scene didn't get on with his ex-wife, and must have been more liable to suspicious glances, apart from the simple fact that he didn't conform to the stereotype of married man, steady job, wife, father of two, etc.

[monicita]

Interesting, tpe and WW. I do wonder though... If, as most on this thread (and others) have said, Jack is more obviously gay, then why would Ennis be the one to feel so insecure? I would say: Because Jack feels more secure, more at one with himself, even though he wouldn't come out and say he is gay. It is all about how you feel about yourself. And BBM sometimes gave me the impression that Ennis really hates himself, maybe least when he is with Jack. So, in a way, when he says in that heartbreaking last scene of theirs that it is Jack's fault, that he is like this - there is maybe truth in that somewhere, but I would say that it is only thanks to Jack that Ennis is a true human being, thinking, feeling, not taking everything for granted - he feels the horrible pain that life sometimes brings, but that is in no way Jack's fault.  I just had a brainwave: What if is "Jack, I swear" meant that he realised this somehow; that all that was important in his life, all that was truly inner life, love, human development, had to do with Jack. That without him, he would have truly been "nothing".

I think, that when we see Ennis suffering it grows to be less important to know if he was gay or not. He was certainly suffering because he himself couldn't face that question (which he does verbalize in the short story in the motel scene), but the most important thing about him is his terrrible need to be loved and his incapacity to give himself fully, something that most of us have been confronted with at some point, gay or not.

monicita

[tpe]

Interesting, tpe and WW. I do wonder though... If, as most on this thread (and others) have said, Jack is more obviously gay, then why would Ennis be the one to feel so insecure? I would say: Because Jack feels more secure, more at one with himself, even though he wouldn't come out and say he is gay. It is all about how you feel about yourself. And BBM sometimes gave me the impression that Ennis really hates himself, maybe least when he is with Jack. So, in a way, when he says in that heartbreaking last scene of theirs that it is Jack's fault, that he is like this - there is maybe truth in that somewhere, but I would say that it is only thanks to Jack that Ennis is a true human being, thinking, feeling, not taking everything for granted - he feels the horrible pain that life sometimes brings, but that is in no way Jack's fault.  I just had a brainwave: What if is "Jack, I swear" meant that he realised this somehow; that all that was important in his life, all that was truly inner life, love, human development, had to do with Jack. That without him, he would have truly been "nothing".

I think, that when we see Ennis suffering it grows to be less important to know if he was gay or not. He was certainly suffering because he himself couldn't face that question (which he does verbalize in the short story in the motel scene), but the most important thing about him is his terrrible need to be loved and his incapacity to give himself fully, something that most of us have been confronted with at some point, gay or not.

monicita

I do think the character of Jack humanizes Ennis more.  Ennis is softer, more open to his desires, in the arms of Jack.

I think, that when we see Ennis suffering it grows to be less important to know if he was gay or not. He was certainly suffering because he himself couldn't face that question (which he does verbalize in the short story in the motel scene), but the most important thing about him is his terrrible need to be loved and his incapacity to give himself fully, something that most of us have been confronted with at some point, gay or not.

This is true.  Suffering, like love, is truly universal.  Sexual orientation recedes into the background.  We all need to be loved, and we all suffer sometimes because of it.

[welshwitch]

That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.

[tpe]

That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.

This is perhaps the greatest "irony" in the story. 

[ksxks]

That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.

This is perhaps the greatest "irony" in the story. 

Excellent.  What you said, WW, is beautiful and so sad.  That Ennis wouldn't have suffered so if he had felt that loving a man was okay.  But Jack was "the wrong source of love."  But still, he could have felt this "gayness" inside and still have been so conflicted, just because of society and his role in it, as he understands it.  I can see, though, that as he got older, and Alma was married, and the kids were grown, if he had been "gay," he would have let himself love Jack by that point -- the conflicts would have leveled out by then.

Yes, tpe, the greatest irony indeed.  The desperate need to be loved, and then not allowing the one who loves him to love him.

kathy

[tpe]

The desperate need to be loved, and then not allowing the one who loves him to love him.

kathy

And he loved him in spite of himself. 

Ennis is not black and white.  He comes in shades of gray.  He is the greatest ambiguity in this story.

 :\'(

[erica loves jack]

That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.

This is perhaps the greatest "irony" in the story. 

The desperate need to be loved, and then not allowing the one who loves him to love him.

kathy

And he loved him in spite of himself. 

Ennis is not black and white.  He comes in shades of gray.  He is the greatest ambiguity in this story.

 :\'(

I agree with both of the above. My take on it is that both Ennis and Jack were gay. Jack was the one who accepted it and understood it while Ennis didn't accept it and definitely didn't understand it too well. I certainly agree that Ennis came in shades of gray. There wasn't a yes or no answer to his questioning if he was gay.... he had no idea what was going on really. All he knew was that he cared about Jack and was attracted to him and loved being with him... both emotionally and physically/sexually.

But then on the other end of things, I can see Ennis knowing and semi-understanding his homosexuality, just not accepting it. After all, he learned from an early age how hateful people could be towards men who loved other men, how 'wrong' it was. I'm sure in that moment, after seeing Earl's body in the ditch, he thought to himself 'I'm not going to be gay.' and what do ya know.... he fell in love with a man later. I think his father had a great deal to do with Ennis' inner struggle to find himself and accept himself.

[tpe]

erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.

I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath.  The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength.  Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.

 

[erica loves jack]

erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.

I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath.  The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength.  Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.

 

so so true. i agree.

[tpe]

erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.

I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath.  The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength.  Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.

 

so so true. i agree.

And in light of what we have shared and discussed, it is poigniant to realize that Jack was Ennis's great and tragic flaw.  More pointedly, it was through Jack that Ennis came to know (and to struggle with) what was deep inside of himself.

 

[erica loves jack]

erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.

I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath.  The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength.  Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.

 

so so true. i agree.

And in light of what we have shared and discussed, it is poigniant to realize that Jack was Ennis's great and tragic flaw.  More pointedly, it was through Jack that Ennis came to know (and to struggle with) what was deep inside of himself.

 

That's so true and powerful. It really makes me think.

Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??

[welshwitch]

Jack was Ennis's Achilles heel. without him Ennis would have married Alma and led the sort oflife she expected - he'd have had no reason not to take a regular job and might never have met anyone else, male or female, who attracted him. If Alma had eventually divorced him and married Monroe, Ennis might have met and married Cassie. All the feelings Jack aroused in him would have remained latent and Ennis would have remianed, outwardly at least, straight. I don't think he'd have been happy, exactly - his father had set him up for problems long before - but neithr do I think he'd have been as miserable as he ends up.

[Patriot1]

Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??

It is my opinion that without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life believing he was a happily married man. He would never have known true love.

[tpe]

Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??

It is my opinion that without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life believing he was a happily married man. He would never have known true love.

I do feel the same way.  Is finding love worth the tragedy?  For some of us, yes.  But so sad to contemplate...

[erica loves jack]

Jack was Ennis's Achilles heel. without him Ennis would have married Alma and led the sort oflife she expected - he'd have had no reason not to take a regular job and might never have met anyone else, male or female, who attracted him. If Alma had eventually divorced him and married Monroe, Ennis might have met and married Cassie. All the feelings Jack aroused in him would have remained latent and Ennis would have remianed, outwardly at least, straight. I don't think he'd have been happy, exactly - his father had set him up for problems long before - but neithr do I think he'd have been as miserable as he ends up.

True.... he may be miserable because of his love for Jack, but at least he loved someone and they loved him in return. “I'd rather have loved and lost than to have never loved at all” or however that saying goes. Despite how miserable he is as a result of the trials and tribulations of his and Jack's relationship, he at least loved someone with all his heart (even if he didn’t know it at the time) and they loved him.

I think with Ennis truly understanding how painful it was and how miserable he is now, it leads him to really understand that what he and Ennis had was real, true, deep love. I don’t think he realized what 'it' was until he saw their shirts... then he opened his eyes and took a look in his heart and realized he'd loved Jack all along and Jack desperately loved him with all his heart.

[Patriot1]

Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??

It is my opinion that without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life believing he was a happily married man. He would never have known true love.

I do feel the same way.  Is finding love worth the tragedy?  For some of us, yes.  But so sad to contemplate...

There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.

[erica loves jack]

Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.

[Patriot1]

Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.

Ennis was in denial about what? that is was gay? or at the very least bisexual?  How can a guy who is having sex with another guy deny he is gay or bi?  What does he do during the coupling, say to himself, "I am not gay. I am not gay. WOW this is great!!!  I am not gay. I am not gay."   

Yes! That is exactly what he did! Ennis was in total denial.

Ennis was scared. Sure he was scared. He didn't want to end up like Earl. What better reason to get the heck out of Wyoming and move to a place more gay friendly?  And when I say gay friendly I don't mean it in the way it is meant today. There was no such place back then. But there were places where he and Jack could have lived and could have been left alone. Many people did it back then.

Ennis was not wanting to change. Now there is the key as far as I am concerned. What was there to change? In Ennis' mind he and Jack were two straight guys with families who would enjoy each other's companionship and sex 2 or 3 times a year. That is all. Nothing to change. Nothing that is until Ennis found the shirts and realized that Jack was in love with him and that he was also in love with Jack. Now, however, it is too late to change anything. Jack is dead and the man he loved will live alone the rest of his life with only the memories of his love for Jack and how it might have been if he just tried to fix it.

[erica loves jack]

Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.

Ennis was in denial about what? that is was gay? or at the very least bisexual?  How can a guy who is having sex with another guy deny he is gay or bi?  What does he do during the coupling, say to himself, "I am not gay. I am not gay. WOW this is great!!!  I am not gay. I am not gay."   

Yes! That is exactly what he did! Ennis was in total denial.

Ennis was scared. Sure he was scared. He didn't want to end up like Earl. What better reason to get the heck out of Wyoming and move to a place more gay friendly?  And when I say gay friendly I don't mean it in the way it is meant today. There was no such place back then. But there were places where he and Jack could have lived and could have been left alone. Many people did it back then.

Ennis was not wanting to change. Now there is the key as far as I am concerned. What was there to change? In Ennis' mind he and Jack were two straight guys with families who would enjoy each other's companionship and sex 2 or 3 times a year. That is all. Nothing to change. Nothing that is until Ennis found the shirts and realized that Jack was in love with him and that he was also in love with Jack. Now, however, it is too late to change anything. Jack is dead and the man he loved will live alone the rest of his life with only the memories of his love for Jack and how it might have been if he just tried to fix it.

i think you read my mind....

[tpe]

There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.

This is true. 

I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place.  His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...

[erica loves jack]

There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.

This is true. 

I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place.  His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...

If Jack was there with him, I believe he would have. Jack was the one person Ennis was himself around. Jack was the only person he could really talk to. I'm sure they would've worked it out.

[Patriot1]

There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.

This is true. 

I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place.  His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...

I don't know if Ennis would have opened up but he could have lived without so much fear of being killed and thus a little happier. Over time he may have begun to open up once he learned there was a gay world out there, but who knows.

[greenfrog]

There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.

This is true. 

I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place.  His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...

If Jack was there with him, I believe he would have. Jack was the one person Ennis was himself around. Jack was the only person he could really talk to. I'm sure they would've worked it out.

Very true. Ennis so badly needed somebody (anbody) to tell him that what he was feeling was O.K.

[erica loves jack]

Uhhhh. It's so sad to realize how much Ennis needed Jack to tell him how he was feeling was ok. No one else in Ennis' life would assure him... they were all against it. Just knowing that the one person you knew was there for you through it all... was dead, knowing you would never be able to hear him assuring you again, never be able to feel him, love him.... that's gotta be the toughest thing. I'm sure if he told his girls they would be understanding (at least in a matter of time) and stand by him, because they loved him. And even if he did find another man to love, it would never be the same as Jack's love. He would compare and always remember the way it was with Jack... so pure, real, true. Their 'force of nature' kind of love. It's depressing just typing it out.


(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)

[greenfrog]

Beautiful post Erica.

I just so really wish Jack had said something to Ennis to help him understand it was O.K.

I'm all teary eyed again now  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[erica loves jack]

Beautiful post Erica.

I just so really wish Jack had said something to Ennis to help him understand it was O.K.

I'm all teary eyed again now  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Awww I'm sorry.

Yeah, but I think Jack did all he could. Even if he had told Ennis it was ok over and over again.... it was up to Ennis to accept it and understand for himself that it was ok.

Geeeez, why does Ennis freakin' Del Mar have to be so complex!!!??? Ahhhh!

[greenfrog]

You're right. In the end, Jack could only do so much for Ennis.

[Patriot1]

(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)

Erica, when that happens again, do the following:

When you get the message about the timeout, click your browser's BACK button. It will take you back to what you wrote.

Highlight everything in the write window, right click and then click COPY.  That will save what you wrote to your Windows Clipboard.

Then click on your BACK button once more. Then click on your browser's RELOAD or REFRESH button.

Then click again on reply or quote as if you were replying for the first time. If you copied ALL that was in the write window, delete everything that is in the write window now.

Then PASTE what you copied into the write window.

That works for me every time.