Author Topic: was ennis gay ? (Read 651032 times)

Patriot1 · « **Reply #210 on:** Oct 23, 2006, 07:01 AM »

Quote from: greenfrog on Oct 22, 2006, 07:49 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Oct 19, 2006, 08:49 AM
Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 19, 2006, 08:42 AM
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.

Amen. But I'd settle for just being liked.

*Hugs*

Thanks greenfrog. I sure needed those hugs just now.

mikele · « **Reply #211 on:** Oct 23, 2006, 07:22 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 07, 2006, 04:31 PM

AS I've said before, i think in the end no matter how you see yourself, if you fall in lovei it's with an individual and at that moment it doesn't matter if the one you love is straight, gay, black, white or a Martian. Ennis loves Jack and its Jack's individuality, the Jackness of Jack if you like, that he loves.

Hello Welshwitch...yes I agree...beautiful post Welshwitch, When you fall in love it does'nt matter to know who is (he or she) really, but to become apparent to the other. But the most important is to love and to be loved

But Ennis is gay I think, and more than straight..as soon as Jack appear in her life, he falls in love secretly but deeply

tpe · « **Reply #212 on:** Oct 23, 2006, 07:24 AM »

Quote from: monicita on Oct 21, 2006, 02:41 PM

My dear tpe,
I would put it the other way round: It all matters in the end. Remember the short story: There was still something akin to "sex" in Ennis's dreams sometimes. And death mattered too, because he cried in his sleep: I think the last lines of the short story go something like: "Sometimes the sheets were wet, sometimes the pillow". There you have it, in my opinion: It mattered to Ennis, but it mattered in a way he would never have dared acknowledge if Jack had still been alive. What I love about Annie Proulx is that she manages to transcend the everyday, humdrum lives of her characters, while still remaining very much "on the ground", so to speak. Sex matters, death matters, but there is also something beyond that...

monicita

I certainly can't deny what you have said here, monicita. The end of the short story does imply that sexual desire was still alive and well, even if only in the substance of dreams. And the tears that stain the pillow do denote something not at all close to resignation in the face of death and lost love.

I do love the ending dream sequence, and it is because it is the stuff of dreams that makes me love it all the more. I do admit that it reveals a very different Ennis behind the stoic exterior we have come to associate with him.

I based my observations on his withdrawal from the world. Perhaps I have neglected to take into account the interior life. Perhaps in that life, desire and death still hold sway.

Newt · « **Reply #213 on:** Oct 31, 2006, 03:22 AM »

Quote from: stacp on Jul 21, 2006, 08:17 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 06:47 AM
As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?

For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?

I'm going to say that Ennis was at least bisexual. Even after Jack was physically absent from his life, he fantasized about him and "wrang it out" 100 times thinking about Jack. Yes, we didn't see Ennis looking or thinking about other men, but Ennis was a much more faithful guy than Jack (okay, maybe not by Alma). Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer. Just thinking out loud.

I also see Ennis as a bisexual character.

I see brokeback mountain as a bisexual film and not a "gay" film. Most people in America see sexuality in black and white binary terms (gay/het) when there are many shades of grey.

Anyway there are many different types of bisexuals:
you like men AND women sexually AND romantically
you like men sexually only; you like women sexually and romantically
you like women sexually only; you like men sexually and romantically

Also, film scholars, film critics/reviewers, and queer theorist scholars have written about how this is a bisexual film and that the character of Ennis is a bisexual man. Even wikipedia has this in the entry for the film and the character of Ennis.

Most often the film was referred to in the media as the "gay cowboy movie," however, a number of reviewers stated Jack and Ennis were bisexual. Sex researcher Fritz Klein also asserted his opinion that the movie was "a nice film with two main characters who were bisexual," and further analyzed that Jack is more "toward the gay side of bisexuality" and Ennis is "a bit more toward the straight side of being bisexual." In an article in American Sexuality Magazine, Amy Andre critiqued the media's avoidance of the use of the term bisexual in association with Brokeback Mountain:

"Brokeback Mountain is not a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There. I said it. Despite what you may have read in the many reviews that have come out about this new cowboy feature film, Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture. Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters with sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women? I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are – a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of biphobia in both the mainstream and gay media."-http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?Article=554

"The film is so discreet and heartfelt in its depiction of an affair between two bisexual cowboys that it may play, like "Philadelphia," to adult audiences regardless of ideological disposition."-http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412553.html

Certainly, Lee's film has enjoyed both curiosity and novelty value in being known as the "gay cowboy movie." Never mind that its protagonists are actually bisexual sheep herders. The vernacular tagline proved so effective that you can still practically hear Universal Pictures' advertising department breathing a collective sigh of relief at not having to sell America on "that bi shepherds flick."-http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A27050

tpe · « **Reply #214 on:** Oct 31, 2006, 08:33 AM »

Quote from: Newt on Oct 31, 2006, 03:22 AM

I also see Ennis as a bisexual character.

I see brokeback mountain as a bisexual film and not a "gay" film. Most people in America see sexuality in black and white binary terms (gay/het) when there are many shades of grey.

Anyway there are many different types of bisexuals:
you like men AND women sexually AND romantically
you like men sexually only; you like women sexually and romantically
you like women sexually only; you like men sexually and romantically

Also, film scholars, film critics/reviewers, and queer theorist scholars have written about how this is a bisexual film and that the character of Ennis is a bisexual man. Even wikipedia has this in the entry for the film and the character of Ennis.

Most often the film was referred to in the media as the "gay cowboy movie," however, a number of reviewers stated Jack and Ennis were bisexual. Sex researcher Fritz Klein also asserted his opinion that the movie was "a nice film with two main characters who were bisexual," and further analyzed that Jack is more "toward the gay side of bisexuality" and Ennis is "a bit more toward the straight side of being bisexual." In an article in American Sexuality Magazine, Amy Andre critiqued the media's avoidance of the use of the term bisexual in association with Brokeback Mountain:

"Brokeback Mountain is not a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There. I said it. Despite what you may have read in the many reviews that have come out about this new cowboy feature film, Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture. Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters with sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women? I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are – a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of biphobia in both the mainstream and gay media."-http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?Article=554

"The film is so discreet and heartfelt in its depiction of an affair between two bisexual cowboys that it may play, like "Philadelphia," to adult audiences regardless of ideological disposition."-http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412553.html

Certainly, Lee's film has enjoyed both curiosity and novelty value in being known as the "gay cowboy movie." Never mind that its protagonists are actually bisexual sheep herders. The vernacular tagline proved so effective that you can still practically hear Universal Pictures' advertising department breathing a collective sigh of relief at not having to sell America on "that bi shepherds flick."-http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A27050

You answered here a question I posed to you on the other thread (Jack's love for Ennis). Thank you.

One point I bring up is that in the period in which the film plays out (the1960s and 1970s), a lot of gay people did attempt to portray themselves as bisexual. I speak here primarily from the experience of many older friends -- some who were married and some even have remained married to this day. Of particular interest in one older acquaintance who used to tell me that although he considered himself unequivocably gay, he continues to fulfill his conjugal duties with his wife (who happens to know about his true preferences).

I guess my point here is that it is very difficult to pin down people according to their professed or exhibited behaviors. As much as it is difficult to say without a doubt that Ennis and Jack were both gay, it is as equally difficult to say that they were definitely bisexual. But I can accept a personal view on their sexuality. In the end, I guess it just boils to that.

As you have said in another post: it all boils down to desire and attraction. I do think that this is true.

ksxks · « **Reply #215 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 12:12 AM »

Quote from: Newt on Oct 31, 2006, 03:22 AM

...
Most often the film was referred to in the media as the "gay cowboy movie," however, a number of reviewers stated Jack and Ennis were bisexual. Sex researcher Fritz Klein also asserted his opinion that the movie was "a nice film with two main characters who were bisexual," and further analyzed that Jack is more "toward the gay side of bisexuality" and Ennis is "a bit more toward the straight side of being bisexual." In an article in American Sexuality Magazine, Amy Andre critiqued the media's avoidance of the use of the term bisexual in association with Brokeback Mountain:

"Brokeback Mountain is not a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There. I said it. Despite what you may have read in the many reviews that have come out about this new cowboy feature film, Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture. Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters with sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women? I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are – a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of biphobia in both the mainstream and gay media."-http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?Article=554

"The film is so discreet and heartfelt in its depiction of an affair between two bisexual cowboys that it may play, like "Philadelphia," to adult audiences regardless of ideological disposition."-http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412553.html

Certainly, Lee's film has enjoyed both curiosity and novelty value in being known as the "gay cowboy movie." Never mind that its protagonists are actually bisexual sheep herders. The vernacular tagline proved so effective that you can still practically hear Universal Pictures' advertising department breathing a collective sigh of relief at not having to sell America on "that bi shepherds flick."-http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A27050

Quite interesting to me, this article, as a lesbian-leaning-bisexual. That they simplified it by calling them gay cowboys instead of bisexual sheepherders. Funny actually. But not funny when taken seriously. But then, it's as complicated as everything else. Some men are definitely gay even though they might be called bisexual because they have been sexually with women. Being able to have sex with the opposite sex doesn't make you straight, and if in your heart you're really gay, then you're gay, not bisexual. ?? A subject we've hashed over a lot in other threads. But I do find "biphobia" interesting. Some people want either/or answers. Some people don't care to say things are one way or the other.

kathy

tpe · « **Reply #216 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 07:50 AM »

kathy, that is true: it doesn't have to be either/or. Life is not as simple as that, no? You love those you choose to love, and that's pretty much it as far as the basics are concerned.

In the final analysis, it's you who knows who you really are. True, a person can lie outwardly to himself/herself. It does not matter. Only the heart knows.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #217 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 11:45 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 03, 2006, 12:12 AM

Some people don't care to say things are one way or the other.

kathy

Not me Kathy. I am a man loving fag through and through. Only once in my 60 years did I ever think of sex with a woman and after I through up I decided that wasn't for me and never gave it another thought.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #218 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 06:38 AM »

I have come to believe that there are different sides to human sexuality. Some are content to privatly hold thoughts of their fantasies while others choose to act them out. I;m erally not sure about Ennis's true sexual ID but The reunion scenes gave good indicaters that Ennis long ed for and wanted a man. Alma did'nt seem to matter anymoe at all . A man whom he came to realize he had fallen in l love with. When I watch him sitting by the window in anticipation of Jack's arrival The most beautiful woman in the world could have walked in and it would'nt have phased Ennis . He wanted J ack Twist , another man and a very masculine one at that. Then Ennis goes on to say "aint no reins on this one" suggesting to me that Ennis was gay. But for only Jack. I agree that just because a man sleeps with or can have sex with a woman does'nt necessarily make him straight. And that goes both ways. ( no pun intended) Let's put it this way , say in another universe how many straight women would turn down Jack or Ennis on some cold dark lonely night if the oportunity presented itself. Would it matter if they were gay? Something to think about.huh?.......Not that I would,,,,,well ....cough. Hmmmmm

tpe · « **Reply #219 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 08:17 AM »

Yes, it does go both ways. I do believe that some people explore their sexuality for a time (usually when young) before hardening to a particular orientation. Sometimes, it is a matter of social circumstances, like being in an all-boys school or being barred from the presence of women. I do think human curiosity is one thing and sexual orientation is another.

AS for Ennis, he is a bit more difficut to figure out. I don't think it was a question of experimentation; rather, it was more like repression. But who knows? Perhaps it was more the individual rather than the gender. Gyllenhaal's take on this ("straight" men falling for each other) may not seem too preposterous... Perhaps this was the secret of why both of them acted out their roles so well.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #220 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 04:12 PM »

Men behind bars have been known to engage in sexual encounters with each other, but how many could you get to admit they are gay.? Not many. And how many continue to do so after release? I know there have been studies done on this but I don't know the results of them.

stephan · « **Reply #221 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 04:23 PM »

Greetings, aintfoolin.

Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
I wanted to add that I have some difficulty with the idea of "exploring" one's sexual orientation, as tpe posted just recently ; that is only because in my personal experience, I have never encountered anyone who could distance him/herself from his/her sexual orientation. Practically every male homosexual I have ever known has been confronted with his homosexuality as by something he wanted to fight against but could never win. There was no choice in the matter. Some could get married to a woman and have children, but they were living in utter misery and concealing it every day.
Getting back to Ennis, he loved only Jack ; he didn't want other men. I just call it Eternal Love :-[

aintfoolin · « **Reply #222 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 05:10 PM »

I realize this, but I'm saying it's a matter of individuality. What matters is ones true feelings about who they are . Some experiment and some don't. If your truly gay I believe you know it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But there are people who just experiment with homosexuality for different reasons.It goes back to what I stated before about Human sexuality and my beleif that there is not just one side to it. Some explore , some don't. It's a choice in that sense.Am I making sense?

lamusica · « **Reply #223 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 05:42 PM »

While Ennis participated in an homosexual act with Jack ( many times), we have no indication that he ever did so with any other man, or even remotely desired any other man. Did Ennis think of himself as gay? I think not. He even refused to admit to himself or to Jack that he loved Jack. I don't think he realized he really did love him until Jack was dead. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Ennis was not gay, in his mind, and that's all that's really important. If you want to say everyone who has willingly engaged in gay activities is gay, then he is gay. If, however, your definition of gay is a bit more compressed, perhaps he wasn't.

Personally, I don't think he was gay. He was in a situation, a time, a place, and with Jack, who was gay, and things happened. He liked Jack, his friend, and eventually even loved him - in everyway possible. I don't think sex was nearly as important to Ennis as it was to Jack; consequently, Ennis never had to make too many choices in sex partner. When he was married, it was Alma --- and Jack. After the divorce, it was ---- Jack. (Cassie came into the equation, but never seriously -- it was just Jack.) He was constant with the one he really lovved ---- Jack. So, whether he was hetero or homo fades in importance to me. He was Jack's.

tpe · « **Reply #224 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 06:09 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 15, 2006, 04:12 PM

Men behind bars have been known to engage in sexual encounters with each other, but how many could you get to admit they are gay.? Not many. And how many continue to do so after release? I know there have been studies done on this but I don't know the results of them.

That's because perhaps a lot of them are NOT gay. When faced with repression, nature finds an outlet for expression and gratification -- in both love and sex.

tpe · « **Reply #225 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 06:12 PM »

Quote from: stephan on Nov 15, 2006, 04:23 PM

Greetings, aintfoolin.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
I wanted to add that I have some difficulty with the idea of "exploring" one's sexual orientation, as tpe posted just recently ; that is only because in my personal experience, I have never encountered anyone who could distance him/herself from his/her sexual orientation. Practically every male homosexual I have ever known has been confronted with his homosexuality as by something he wanted to fight against but could never win. There was no choice in the matter. Some could get married to a woman and have children, but they were living in utter misery and concealing it every day.
Getting back to Ennis, he loved only Jack ; he didn't want other men. I just call it Eternal Love :-[

I can speak for myself in this one: indeed, I never though I had a choice. God knows I tried when I was beginning to have an understanding of sexuality.

Ennis is indeed the faithful lover -- faithful forever.

tpe · « **Reply #226 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 06:18 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Nov 15, 2006, 05:42 PM

While Ennis participated in an homosexual act with Jack ( many times), we have no indication that he ever did so with any other man, or even remotely desired any other man. Did Ennis think of himself as gay? I think not. He even refused to admit to himself or to Jack that he loved Jack. I don't think he realized he really did love him until Jack was dead. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Ennis was not gay, in his mind, and that's all that's really important. If you want to say everyone who has willingly engaged in gay activities is gay, then he is gay. If, however, your definition of gay is a bit more compressed, perhaps he wasn't.

Personally, I don't think he was gay. He was in a situation, a time, a place, and with Jack, who was gay, and things happened. He liked Jack, his friend, and eventually even loved him - in everyway possible. I don't think sex was nearly as important to Ennis as it was to Jack; consequently, Ennis never had to make too many choices in sex partner. When he was married, it was Alma --- and Jack. After the divorce, it was ---- Jack. (Cassie came into the equation, but never seriously -- it was just Jack.) He was constant with the one he really lovved ---- Jack. So, whether he was hetero or homo fades in importance to me. He was Jack's.

Ennis is such an enigma. Even up to now, I can't make my mind about him... But I do know that he loved Jack -- most deeply.

ksxks · « **Reply #227 on:** Nov 15, 2006, 07:26 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 15, 2006, 06:18 PM

Ennis is such an enigma. Even up to now, I can't make my mind about him... But I do know that he loved Jack -- most deeply.

I think maybe we are clear about Ennis, though he is someone with depth and complexity...but what we can't do is fit him into some definition of gay. If we say that each person has their own unique sexuality, then he is just...Ennis. I think all the things said about him here are valid...and he is indeed an enigma.

There just aren't only two or three ways to be...though I like trying to talk through it nonetheless.

I happen to like the "two straight men fall in love" story, though, just because then they are each other's firsts. Maybe these kinds of men found themselves going along with the "acceptable" way...until they met the right man. Although, as you men here know, there are others of you who knew from early on there was no question where your inclinations lay.

(This was endlessly discussed about Kirk and Spock, too, in K/S. Kirk obviously was seemingly very straight, but he falls in love with Spock; and we can surmise different things about Spock. The end result of these discussions, after 40 years, is that it doesn't matter -- each person can think of it however she wants it, as long as the men aren't too out of character.)

kathy

tpe · « **Reply #228 on:** Nov 16, 2006, 08:37 AM »

I do agree. Talking through this is probably more important than establishing a definitive sexual identity for Ennis. I think neither the short story nor the movie made things deliberately clear. That's part and parcel of the power of the Ennis character.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #229 on:** Nov 17, 2006, 04:33 PM »

Then this opens up the complex question of : Are gays born gay?/Or can a person "turn" gay as many of my freinds and relatives believe. Ennis is indeed a complicated piece of work in a sense that he is hard to figure. To understand where he stands as far as his sexuality goes. My feeling is that his feelings were repressed deep inside. I don't think he expected to fall in love with Jack but by the time SNIT happened, he was pretty sure that he had had feelins that he could'nt control.The scene where he's sick and crying , punching the wall in frustration at the inability to come to terms or express to Jack what he really wanted I think he knew good and well that it was wrong to let Jack go.By the time of the reunion after four long years I feel that he had come to the full realization that this is what he really wanted.that his feelins for Alma paled in comparison to those he had for Jack though I think he went through a very complex struggle to get to that point. Finally he confesses that " there aint no reins on this one" saying that he could'nt help himself if he tried. He was hooked.Maybe some of the gay guys on the thread could shed some light on this? Thanks.

tpe · « **Reply #230 on:** Nov 17, 2006, 04:39 PM »

It's a hard question to answer. I do believe that some people are born gay/bisexual. And I do think it is genetic: it runs like a thread in my family.

As to the exact nature of Ennis's sexuality, it would seem to be something inherent within him, as nothing in his life seemed to have influenced him to go along this path -- except perhaps for the person of Jack himself.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #231 on:** Nov 17, 2006, 05:27 PM »

Jack on the other hand is a different story. If by chance ( BIG IF..) I could've asked Jack if he was born gay I'm inclined to believe he would say yes. I think he probably knew from childhood that he was. Or he'd state that he has felt this way ever sense he could remember, as gay friends I've met through the years have stated. But some people also believe after watching the film that Jack "turned" Ennis gay. This is a mistake in thinking I believe. Ignorance?I tend to believe the tag line that Love is a force of nature. When ya know, ya know. I think I heard Ang Lee state once that "To themselves and to the SUPRISE of the audience, they fell in love" I believe it was a suprise to them too. A nice one.

tpe · « **Reply #232 on:** Nov 17, 2006, 06:50 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 17, 2006, 05:27 PM

Jack on the other hand is a different story. If by chance ( BIG IF..) I could've asked Jack if he was born gay I'm inclined to believe he would say yes. I think he probably knew from childhood that he was. Or he'd state that he has felt this way ever sense he could remember, as gay friends I've met through the years have stated. But some people also believe after watching the film that Jack "turned" Ennis gay. This is a mistake in thinking I believe. Ignorance?I tend to believe the tag line that Love is a force of nature. When ya know, ya know. I think I heard Ang Lee state once that "To themselves and to the SUPRISE of the audience, they fell in love" I believe it was a suprise to them too. A nice one.

Love is a 2-way street. You can't make headway without the cooperation of the other. If they say that Jack made Ennis gay, then I would say that Ennis let him. There is a lot to be said about that.

ksxks · « **Reply #233 on:** Nov 17, 2006, 07:53 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 17, 2006, 04:33 PM

Then this opens up the complex question of : Are gays born gay?/Or can a person "turn" gay as many of my freinds and relatives believe. Ennis is indeed a complicated piece of work in a sense that he is hard to figure. To understand where he stands as far as his sexuality goes. My feeling is that his feelings were repressed deep inside. I don't think he expected to fall in love with Jack but by the time SNIT happened, he was pretty sure that he had had feelins that he could'nt control.The scene where he's sick and crying , punching the wall in frustration at the inability to come to terms or express to Jack what he really wanted I think he knew good and well that it was wrong to let Jack go.By the time of the reunion after four long years I feel that he had come to the full realization that this is what he really wanted.that his feelins for Alma paled in comparison to those he had for Jack though I think he went through a very complex struggle to get to that point. Finally he confesses that " there aint no reins on this one" saying that he could'nt help himself if he tried. He was hooked.Maybe some of the gay guys on the thread could shed some light on this? Thanks.

Articulate and beautiful picture of our Ennis, aintfoolin. These things would certainly indicate that he had very deep inclinations toward being, if not with "men," with this man anyway. Otherwise, he might have gone back and found himself able to be happy enough -- maybe even perfectly happy -- with Alma, and remembered Jack as some idyllic foolishness of youth.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #234 on:** Nov 18, 2006, 01:00 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 17, 2006, 06:50 PM

Love is a 2-way street. You can't make headway without the cooperation of the other. If they say that Jack made Ennis gay, then I would say that Ennis let him. There is a lot to be said about that.

Yes, to Ennis letting Jack turn him in a direction he didn't find it difficult to go. Ennis was willing -- the "higher" parts of him were able to love Jack; it was the baser instincts -- his fears -- that kept him from believing he could allow himself to have this love.

kathy

dirtbiker · « **Reply #235 on:** Nov 18, 2006, 01:25 AM »

Hmmm... Interesting question. I do believe that there are people who are exclusively turned on by their own gender and then there are those who are turned on by the opposite gender. Of course, you then have those who lie somewhere in between to varying degrees. I think both Ennis & Jack are somewhere in between. You have to have some physical attraction to the opposite sex to be able to have sex with them, regardless of how young or horny you are. Of course societal pressures tend to tweak these tendencies, and if Ennis & Jack were born in an era of permissiveness, they may very well have tended more towards the gay side of the scale. It defies logic to think that being gay is strictly a choice as religious zealots and conservatives allege. It's obvious to me that they sorely lack the ability to empathize - they are unable to think logically and put themselves in the position of choosing a "lifestyle" fraught with societal scorn and heartache; to see that no one in their right minds would choose that option...

ksxks · « **Reply #236 on:** Nov 18, 2006, 10:00 PM »

You're so right, DB. Like we'd choose to be what so much of society deems the lowest of the low and to be discriminated against at every turn and not allowed to just have a plain average life like everyone else has, home and family if that's what we want. Jeez.

Ennis and Jack certainly were products of their times, and we can only surmise how their lives might have been in a different time period. You know what, if it was way earlier (besides way later, such as now -- which still isn't okay as far as that goes)...if it was earlier, it would have been okay for them, because people weren't so in each other's faces then -- they could live out in nowhere as plenty of people did and not be thought weird of -- two men with a place together? No problem.

I remember when I very first heard of this movie that was coming out and told a friend about it, I couldn't exactly remember the time period (I'd just read one quick article) and I said it was 1906 or something. They could have done what they wanted then, as long as they didn't smooch in public or whatever. At least in Wyoming they could have.

There were just so many times, and are so many cultures, where it was and is totally known by everyone what might be going on between men, and between women, but they just didn't or don't talk about it. Any more than they talked about sex between men and women. What you did sexually wasn't on the top of the topic list.

kathy

aintfoolin · « **Reply #237 on:** Nov 19, 2006, 11:02 AM »

If Jack could,ve pried Ennis out of Riverton Wy, and moved to a bigger city( Maybe Dallas or Houston,?Would they have had a beeter chance? ) There had to be more gay communities in those cities even in the 60's. Other than being close to his girls, there was no reason for Ennis to stay in Riverton. He could've come back to see them anytime he wanted.Or they could've visited him in Texas. There's plenty of ranches in Texas where he could find work. Not saying that everything would have been rosy there either but the paranoia in Riverton?.....Christ Ennis, there another world out there for goodness sake. Get to know it. Even Mexico huh?

tpe · « **Reply #238 on:** Nov 20, 2006, 08:42 AM »

Quote from: dirtbiker on Nov 18, 2006, 01:25 AM

Hmmm... Interesting question. I do believe that there are people who are exclusively turned on by their own gender and then there are those who are turned on by the opposite gender. Of course, you then have those who lie somewhere in between to varying degrees. I think both Ennis & Jack are somewhere in between. You have to have some physical attraction to the opposite sex to be able to have sex with them, regardless of how young or horny you are. Of course societal pressures tend to tweak these tendencies, and if Ennis & Jack were born in an era of permissiveness, they may very well have tended more towards the gay side of the scale. It defies logic to think that being gay is strictly a choice as religious zealots and conservatives allege. It's obvious to me that they sorely lack the ability to empathize - they are unable to think logically and put themselves in the position of choosing a "lifestyle" fraught with societal scorn and heartache; to see that no one in their right minds would choose that option...

For Ennis, it certainly didn't look like a choice, no? It was clearly a struggle. If he had a choice in the beginning, I suspect it would have been to be like "everybody" else".

Well said, dirtbiker.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #239 on:** Nov 20, 2006, 02:57 PM »

Well then I suppose Ennis is in a category of his own seeing that he was able to be with Alma and Cassie? But yet there"s Jack whom he feels the most attracted to. And Jack stating that he " liked the direction Lureen was going" in the back seat of that caddy. Does this mean that Jack also enjoyed sex with women ?. Dirtbiker said that one has to be physically attracted to the oppisite sex to have sex with them right? Even went on to marry them although they were miserable in their marriages but they did have a sexual relationship within them. Ennis's famous" flip-over" of Alma in bed tells me that Jack was on his mind at the time. What's going on here?Now I'm confused a bit.
True Dirtbiker, my relatives thinking does defy logic and I chuck it up to ignorance of the facts because when someone tells me that they've felt this way since they were little or ever since they could remember, I tend to beleive them. There's no question in my mind.
I have one other question I'd like to put out there and it concerns the fact that many say that Ennis was ONLY attracted to Jack. Was it possible that Ennis could have at least found other men attactive? Not necessarily intending to act on on any of it of course but at least LOOKED. I know there's no evidence in the movie to sustain this but in my mind only, he had to compare...... (a roving eye?) as Jack certainly did. We all do at some point when we see a strikingly attractive person right? I mean he was human. I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms here. He's such a complex character whom I enjoy dissecting Ledger gave heart to this tortured soul. Excellent.