Topic: was ennis gay ?

[Romeo164]

Well said mimi. That's the impression I got from watching and reading about Ennis. Thanks for pointing that out.

[gordo]

I was glad to read your comments and I agree but will be glad if there is a squel made to show the love story will have a happy ending.....Gordoe

[mimi]

i think that the beauty of this love story is that they were just two souls who fell in love with each other and shared a connection - soulmates - but who were tragically kept away from each other by cruel circumstances and their own time, as well as society of course.

their souls fell in love, so really their bodies dont matter (that sounds really weird, but what im getting at is that it didnt matter what gender or sexual orientation they were because of their love, and if they had been a man and a woman they probably would still have fallen in love, only they would probably have lived longer happier lives together).

[lancecowboy]

i think that the beauty of this love story is that they were just two souls who fell in love with each other and shared a connection - soulmates - but who were tragically kept away from each other by cruel circumstances and their own time, as well as society of course.

their souls fell in love, so really their bodies dont matter (that sounds really weird, but what im getting at is that it didnt matter what gender or sexual orientation they were because of their love, and if they had been a man and a woman they probably would still have fallen in love, only they would probably have lived longer happier lives together).

It doesn't sound weird to me. Not at all. In fact, I think it is the essence of love when it transcends all the physical parameters we place so much importance, from race, to sex, to religion, to family background, to social class. All the great love stories are about the love that transcends or the attempt to transcend these physical barriers. It is the failure to overcome these barriers that give rise to tragedy. So ideally, their bodies don't matter. But realistically, every love story has to overcome its physical limits. It can be as simple as the outward appearance of the lovers. Love is blind and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but often we have expectations of what Mr. Right looks like, and any deviation, no matter how small or minor or irrelevant, may keep us from the love of our life. It can be as monumental as the social taboo against same-sex, or different-race or different family backgrounds, but the glory of true love is in its triumph over impossible obstacles.

[mimi]

It doesn't sound weird to me. Not at all. In fact, I think it is the essence of love when it transcends all the physical parameters we place so much importance, from race, to sex, to religion, to family background, to social class. All the great love stories are about the love that transcends or the attempt to transcend these physical barriers. It is the failure to overcome these barriers that give rise to tragedy. So ideally, their bodies don't matter. But realistically, every love story has to overcome its physical limits. It can be as simple as the outward appearance of the lovers. Love is blind and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but often we have expectations of what Mr. Right looks like, and any deviation, no matter how small or minor or irrelevant, may keep us from the love of our life. It can be as monumental as the social taboo against same-sex, or different-race or different family backgrounds, but the glory of true love is in its triumph over impossible obstacles.

Thanks, thats exactly what im getting at

[myprivatejack]

I completely agree with both of you,Maddy and Lance .What really mattered were their souls,their feelings,not their bodies=whom they loved and wished then.

[brandedandrew]

funny how i keep coming back to this thread and reading the posts.   Is he or I isn't he?  If it wasn't for that sex thing,  it could of been the greatest bromance ever told,  but it turned out to be the greatest romance ever told. Ennis never thought of being sexual with Alma,  was it just conventional thinking that sex before marriage is a sin, or just part of what was suppose to happen,  part of the "rules",  you get a woman,  get her pregnant,  funny how Ennis brought up at to Alma if she didn't want his kids he be more than happy to leave her alone.     With Jack convention went out the window,  drunk or cold stone sober,  he wanted him, a loved him.   To throw everything out of the window, all you believed,  or were taught to believe is a hard thing to do or live with,  but Ennis kept his toes in the water for twenty years,  and Jack stayed with him hoping one day he'll just go a head and jump in,  "hey the water is fine"

To say it out loud,  to reconcile with yourself that you're a man who loves men,  can be hard to face for so many of us.  We  fall into destructive things,  self loathing, drugs, drinking,  random sex with random men.  It was hard for Ennis.   Not all of us ride off into the sunset with the man we love,  when we don't love ourselves enough.   Where can we go to say I'm afraid of the way I feel,  and that's its ok to feel these things,  that it is who we are, and how we love,  and we love men.   And at Ennis and Jack time and place I can't even imagine how it was for them,  I could love Paul, hold his hand and walk down the streets of Chelsea in New York City,  live there with him and no one thinks nothing of us.  But to be able to let yourself do what you want most is the real fight. 

It reminds me of a button I saw a friend of mind had,  "I can't even think straight",  to me that's where it start,  from our own mind,  soul,  our heart.  Its not so much the act of sex,  as it is the act of living knowing you're who you really are and embracing it, holding it up high above your head,  we're getting there a lot of us are already there.  Ennis never got that message and he loved in his self loathing of that of love.

Ask him if he was queer,  he'll knock you on your ass,but there was real pain that last meeting with Jack,  He was facing what he was, and losing Jack at the same time.

Was Ennis gay?  I don't care,  he just loved this guy called Jack.

thanks for listening to me.

[lancecowboy]

...
Ask him if he was queer,  he'll knock you on your ass,but there was real pain that last meeting with Jack,  He was facing what he was, and losing Jack at the same time.

Was Ennis gay?  I don't care,  he just loved this guy called Jack.

thanks for listening to me.

It's a pleasure, listening to the way you say what we love. Yup. That was Ennis. You got him right. 

[rimasworld]

Annie wrote him as a homophobic gay man and that is why he is such a complex and tragic character always at war with himself 

[Tony]

Annie wrote him as a homophobic gay man......

  Yes, Rimasworld, that's true.  But it got more messy.  She also said Heath Ledger knew Ennis better than SHE did, and Heath, at first, said he played the role as a homophobic straight man who had the misfortune to find himself in love with another man.  He beat a hasty retreat when there was some kind of outrage from the gay community, who wanted a different theme, AP's original one.
 It's not so easy to settle this one.  After all, if it was, the "Was Ennis Gay?" threads would never have been the hottest threads on every BBM forum. IMO, the issue will still be there 30 years from now, for people tuning in to the late movie and seeing it for the first time.  Which is, I think, just great!

[lancecowboy]

  Yes, Rimasworld, that's true.  But it got more messy.  She also said Heath Ledger knew Ennis better than SHE did, and Heath, at first, said he played the role as a homophobic straight man who had the misfortune to find himself in love with another man.  He beat a hasty retreat when there was some kind of outrage from the gay community, who wanted a different theme, AP's original one.
 It's not so easy to settle this one.  After all, if it was, the "Was Ennis Gay?" threads would never have been the hottest threads on every BBM forum. IMO, the issue will still be there 30 years from now, for people tuning in to the late movie and seeing it for the first time.  Which is, I think, just great!

Yup. You bet. Human sexuality will still be as complex and complicated 30 years from now. Some humans like to have everything all cut up and fitted into pigeon holes according to some neat category. Human sexuality defies categorization. Ennis defies categorization. That's what makes him such a memorable character.

[rimasworld]

Yup. You bet. Human sexuality will still be as complex and complicated 30 years from now. Some humans like to have everything all cut up and fitted into pigeon holes according to some neat category. Human sexuality defies categorization. Ennis defies categorization. That's what makes him such a memorable character.

Just for the record, I'm not one of those humans.. I kind of like the grey areas of life that make you think things over again & again...

[lancecowboy]

Just for the record, I'm not one of those humans.. I kind of like the grey areas of life that make you think things over again & again...

I wasn't accusing anyone. I, for one, have the same human tendency to want categorization in different circumstances and topics. My statement was the kind of generalization that is bound to be wrong. No generalization can be always correct. (oops, there goes another one) It was only meant to illustrate the transcendence of Heath's performance as Ennis, which defies categorization. It is in a category of its own. 

[brandedandrew]

A straight homophobic man falls in love with another man,  a self hating gay homophobic falls in love with a man,   repressed gay man outed by love of another man, love can be such a pain in the ass.

[lancecowboy]

A straight homophobic man falls in love with another man,  a self hating gay homophobic falls in love with a man,   repressed gay man outed by love of another man, love can be such a pain in the ass.

  Jack sure thought so..."Sometimes I can hardly stand it." 

[myprivatejack]

A straight homophobic man falls in love with another man,  a self hating gay homophobic falls in love with a man,   repressed gay man outed by love of another man, love can be such a pain in the ass.

  Letting aside the laughs,I think it's a good definition of Ennis ¡.And I'd add that he was a man who,due to some concrete circumstances,fell in love with someone of his same sex,in spite of himself and without being able to define himself as openly gay.

[brandedandrew]

Letting aside the laughs,I think it's a good definition of Ennis ¡.And I'd add that he was a man who,due to some concrete circumstances,fell in love with someone of his same sex,in spite of himself and without being able to define himself as openly gay.

He doesn't have to admit his sexuality at all.  He big thing is he loves Jack,  to face that one fact is his biggest problem.   He loves this man,  he wants sex with this man,  he doesn't want to lose what he has with this man.  The underlying thing is Jack is a man, acceptance of his lover is the issue (to me anyway),   and Ennis torn feelings are Jack has a male organ which is a no-no, Ennis desires for him which is a bigger no-no, and the fact that this is against everything he was , and taught to believe  (sorry for being so explicit,  I don't mean to disrespectful to you). 

In the final meeting,  Ennis said to Jack,  it was because of him he was like the way he was.  He was sexually and emotionally hung up on this guy.  Ennis was confused,  scared, lonely without him,  and hated himself for feeling this way,  and also not having the courage that Jacks seems to have for changing it.

I see exactly what you're saying, myprivatejack,  it make perfect sense to me.

 

[myprivatejack]

He doesn't have to admit his sexuality at all.  He big thing is he loves Jack,  to face that one fact is his biggest problem.   He loves this man,  he wants sex with this man,  he doesn't want to lose what he has with this man.  The underlying thing is Jack is a man, acceptance of his lover is the issue (to me anyway),   and Ennis torn feelings are Jack has a male organ which is a no-no, Ennis desires for him which is a bigger no-no, and the fact that this is against everything he was , and taught to believe  (sorry for being so explicit,  I don't mean to disrespectful to you). 

In the final meeting,  Ennis said to Jack,  it was because of him he was like the way he was.  He was sexually and emotionally hung up on this guy.  Ennis was confused,  scared, lonely without him,  and hated himself for feeling this way,  and also not having the courage that Jacks seems to have for changing it.

I see exactly what you're saying, myprivatejack,  it make perfect sense to me.

 

Of course,I haven't thought you have been disrespectful with me nor with anybody else...There're some things that must be called by their real name,if we don't want to be considered as timorous...The fact is that Ennis doesn't have to admit his sexuality,but he isn't able to do it either.The problem,as you say,is that Jack had this big no-no(I have to suppose it was big... ) and that this no-no was what gave him pleasure and made him feel love.What was too much for him ¡.

[brandedandrew]

Of course,I haven't thought you have been disrespectful with me nor with anybody else...There're some things that must be called by their real name,if we don't want to be considered as timorous...The fact is that Ennis doesn't have to admit his sexuality,but he isn't able to do it either.The problem,as you say,is that Jack had this big no-no(I have to suppose it was big... ) and that this no-no was what gave him pleasure and made him feel love.What was too much for him ¡.

myprivatejack,

Thank you for being so sweet,  and so funny.   When you said that Ennis was not able to admit his sexuality is so right.   It was like in the last meeting,  Jack couldn't bring himself to say to Jack "I love you",  but he had to hold on to him,  getting so pissed that even the "thought"  that Jack was with someone else that he could see himself killing him. It shows the conflict within him.  Its so amazing how he didn't go nuts by than.

thanks again for so kind to me here

[mimi]

myprivatejack,

Thank you for being so sweet,  and so funny.   When you said that Ennis was not able to admit his sexuality is so right.   It was like in the last meeting,  Jack couldn't bring himself to say to Jack "I love you",  but he had to hold on to him,  getting so pissed that even the "thought"  that Jack was with someone else that he could see himself killing him. It shows the conflict within him.  Its so amazing how he didn't go nuts by than.

thanks again for so kind to me here

This is a really great point - about Ennis's own internal struggle, his great battle between what he wants and what he denies himself. 

But I think that the whole "what I don't know, all them things I dont know, could get you killed if i come to know them..." speech was just a bunch of empty words. IMO Ennis was really just letting off some steam because of the "build up of incendiary rage" (to quote AP) that he felt about their whole situation.

Ennis knows deep down that he would be a wreck if anything happened to Jack, and he had to face this knowledge unexpectedly when Jack did die.

Ennis was in love with Jack, and he could never bring himself to harm, let alone kill, his one true love, although sometimes he probably wished he could just not give a damn about what happened to Jack.

[brandedandrew]

This is a really great point - about Ennis's own internal struggle, his great battle between what he wants and what he denies himself. 

But I think that the whole "what I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if i come to know them..." speech was just a bunch of empty words. IMO Ennis was really just letting off some steam because of the "build up of incendiary rage" (to quote AP) that he felt about their whole situation.

Ennis knows deep down that he would be a wreck if anything happened to Jack, and he had to face this knowledge unexpectedly when Jack did die.

Ennis was in love with Jack, and he could never bring himself to harm, let alone kill, his one true love, although sometimes he probably wished he could just not give a damn about what happened to Jack.

Great point!  But is it so empty,  but a sign of his conflicted feelings.   And to be honest,  we all know of some cases when feeling spinning out of control, things do happen between lovers.   (Unfortunately,  domestic violence its all too real sometimes in our community, like in others,  but that's another subject for another tread, one day.)   My point only is again,  showing that Ennis can't bring himself to stop seeing Jack,  can't bring himself to be out with Jack,  but can't stand the idea of Jack being with someone else.

Why?  Will it show to him what Jack is a "queer",  so which means by loving this man, this is who he is,  (guilt by association),  or the the deep feeling of love he had for him,  that he couldn't stand for him to be with anyone else but him.  The mere thought that Jack is "stepping out on him",  is something he can't even deal with.  Ennis could sit at Alma's at Thanksgiving table,  with her new husband,  carrying his child,  but Jack in Mexico, showed a real emotional reaction from him.

conflict, contradictions, love, sex, and obsession was an all too real part of this man.

 

[myprivatejack]

Great points,Maddy and Andrew ¡ I also believe that the root of Ennis problem was between what he wants and what he denies to himself,as you say Maddy;that it's the same than saying that between what he had been taught to feel and what he really felt.What had been a terrifying ghost during all his life got incarnated in someone real,who he fell in love with;the ghost of the homosexuality and the horrible effects it could have in who practised it.What an appalling paradox of life,no?.
As regards to the apparent contradiction of Ennis being unable to stop meeting Jack but being unable either to stand the idea of Jack making love with someone else,I think that it's a mixture of what you say,Andrew.On one hand,he was jealous of any other man who could take Jack away from him,as a person in love that he was;IMO,one of his anguishes is to think that,before so many denies of this "sweet life",Jack could perfectly look for another partner who offered it to him without so many doubts as Ennis.I think it makes a perfect sense...But,one the other hand,maybe he had sometimes the thought of associate Jack's "gayness" with his own;Jack wasn't only a man who had fallen in love "by chance" with another man,but a "real" gay.So,from that reality to think and accept that he also was a "queer" there's only a few steps.I think you have indicated it very well,even if I think there was in his reaction more love than fear of seeing himself like a gay.But,doubtless,Ennis would have been a good sample for psychologist work ¡.

[brandedandrew]

Great points,Maddy and Andrew ¡ I also believe that the root of Ennis problem was between what he wants and what he denies to himself,as you say Maddy;that it's the same than saying that between what he had been taught to feel and what he really felt.What had been a terrifying ghost during all his life got incarnated in someone real,who he fell in love with;the ghost of the homosexuality and the horrible effects it could have in who practised it.What an appalling paradox of life,no?.
As regards to the apparent contradiction of Ennis being unable to stop meeting Jack but being unable either to stand the idea of Jack making love with someone else,I think that it's a mixture of what you say,Andrew.On one hand,he was jealous of any other man who could take Jack away from him,as a person in love that he was;IMO,one of his anguishes is to think that,before so many denies of this "sweet life",Jack could perfectly look for another partner who offered it to him without so many doubts as Ennis.I think it makes a perfect sense...But,one the other hand,maybe he had sometimes the thought of associate Jack's "gayness" with his own;Jack wasn't only a man who had fallen in love "by chance" with another man,but a "real" gay.So,from that reality to think and accept that he also was a "queer" there's only a few steps.I think you have indicated it very well,even if I think there was in his reaction more love than fear of seeing himself like a gay.But,doubtless,Ennis would have been a good sample for psychologist work ¡.

I totally get what you're saying,  Jack was no way conflicted in his need to be with a man,  and actively sought out men, as showed in the film.   Jack was what Ennis was not, "out",   (in his fashion).   Jack urging Ennis over the years to be a couple,  to live and work together was what in Ennis's mind, was something "daddy said was wrong",   and who but our parents influences us most in life.  My mother who had a hard time at first accepts the idea of my sexuality, where my father is still having a hard time with it,  I'm his only son,  only child, even thought I know he loves me,  I can't help to feel, in some ways I am a disappointment to him,  and for that I feel bad.   Anyway,   imagine Ennis feelings  "Dad killed a guy for being this way.".  Your parents love and acceptance is in the bone, like marrow.

[mimi]

Great points,Maddy and Andrew ¡ I also believe that the root of Ennis problem was between what he wants and what he denies to himself,as you say Maddy;that it's the same than saying that between what he had been taught to feel and what he really felt.What had been a terrifying ghost during all his life got incarnated in someone real,who he fell in love with;the ghost of the homosexuality and the horrible effects it could have in who practised it.What an appalling paradox of life,no?.
As regards to the apparent contradiction of Ennis being unable to stop meeting Jack but being unable either to stand the idea of Jack making love with someone else,I think that it's a mixture of what you say,Andrew.On one hand,he was jealous of any other man who could take Jack away from him,as a person in love that he was;IMO,one of his anguishes is to think that,before so many denies of this "sweet life",Jack could perfectly look for another partner who offered it to him without so many doubts as Ennis.I think it makes a perfect sense...But,one the other hand,maybe he had sometimes the thought of associate Jack's "gayness" with his own;Jack wasn't only a man who had fallen in love "by chance" with another man,but a "real" gay.So,from that reality to think and accept that he also was a "queer" there's only a few steps.I think you have indicated it very well,even if I think there was in his reaction more love than fear of seeing himself like a gay.But,doubtless,Ennis would have been a good sample for psychologist work ¡.

Thanks 

I think it is interesting to also point out, however, that Jack's true sexual orientation, if any specific one is applicable to him, is just as debatable as Ennis'.

I know that most people tend to assume that Jack was definitely gay whereas Ennis was perhaps not, but I do have my doubts...

Firstly, Jack only really ever started chatting up other men as a method of coping with not being able to have Ennis, the one thing he wants more than anything in the whole wide world. You could say that he was simply using other men as a sort of meagre "substitute" for Ennis.

Secondly, in the climax scene of the movie, when Jack says "...for needing something that I don't hardly never get!", it is understandable that most people would think he is referring sodomy, or just intimacy with other men. While this is understadable given the context, I would say that it is also just as plausible that he means Ennis - the thing that he needs but never gets is in fact Ennis himself. Therefore, in an attempt to combat this lust he goes after other men. Of course, it is never the same, but that is really the only coping mechanism Jack had in such a homophobic era and place.

Ennis and Jack were not just two random gay cowboys. They were starcross'd lovers, kept apart cruelly by chance and cold hard circumstance and human indecency. Therefore it is fair to say that maybe neither character was really "gay" at all. After all, this movie is all about transcending labels and boundaries, so why then should the two main characters be stifled by labels like gay, bi or straight...?

 

[myprivatejack]

Thanks  

I think it is interesting to also point out, however, that Jack's true sexual orientation, if any specific one is applicable to him, is just as debatable as Ennis'.

I know that most people tend to assume that Jack was definitely gay whereas Ennis was perhaps not, but I do have my doubts...

Firstly, Jack only really ever started chatting up other men as a method of coping with not being able to have Ennis, the one thing he wants more than anything in the whole wide world. You could say that he was simply using other men as a sort of meagre "substitute" for Ennis.

Secondly, in the climax scene of the movie, when Jack says "...for needing something that I don't hardly never get!", it is understandable that most people would think he is referring sodomy, or just intimacy with other men. While this is understadable given the context, I would say that it is also just as plausible that he means Ennis - the thing that he needs but never gets is in fact Ennis himself. Therefore, in an attempt to combat this lust he goes after other men. Of course, it is never the same, but that is really the only coping mechanism Jack had in such a homophobic era and place.

Ennis and Jack were not just two random gay cowboys. They were starcross'd lovers, kept apart cruelly by chance and cold hard circumstance and human indecency. Therefore it is fair to say that maybe neither character was really "gay" at all. After all, this movie is all about transcending labels and boundaries, so why then should the two main characters be stifled by labels like gay, bi or straight...?

 

I'm as enemy as you of any kind of labels,what in BBM case is more useless still,IMO.I only was answering to the point Andrew remarked about Ennis fear of being considered as a "gay" if he admitted Jack was.What was unquestionable is that Jack is much more open in showing and accepting his own sexuality,and that includes being with other men without any problem.Men who,as you say,were clearly a mere sexual relief,even an attempt to forget (?) Ennis even if for a while only.Because I agree with you in that Jack wouldn't refer only to a sexual intercourse when he says he hasn't enough with two high altitude fucks once or twice a year;I have never thought this only,but having Ennis in body and soul for him,always...What,I repeat,wasn't an obstacle-or precisely for this...-for having a clear sexual life clearly with men only,what reveals that he was more comfortable in this way.And that,for Ennis,on the contrary,was a reason for feeling more uncomfortable,because he see himself mirrored in the "queer" attitude of his lover.

[brandedandrew]

Or maybe labels can be liberating,  to know who and what you are,  to have a name to how you feel.  Gay Pride,  its a label that can be shouted, and celebrated.  We have gay pride month, like Black history month, Porto Rican Day,  St. Patricks Day in New York,  a "holiday" for something important to you in whatever country you live in.  Ennis and Jack are symbols of love,  and a reminder to us,  how oppressed, depressed, repressed we were and in many cases still are. How love still couldn't be deferred,  destroyed,  compromised, or denied against a homophobic land.   Gayness it not the sexual act,  but who we are, how we feel, how we live.   Not to be denied but to be  "Queer and Here".  We label everything,  its an easy way out sometimes,  but it also highlights and bring clear what and who we are.

I don't know,  sometimes its bugs me that dropping the label gay is an easy way to dismiss the idea of gay, maybe dismiss me,  and that we are unique, special and beautiful no matter what anyone thinks of us.  And to celebrate the same way that everyone in the world see themselves, their neighborhood, their homeland. 

Jack wanted his own homeland,  his own country,  his own world,  but Ennis was too afraid to declare Independence, but in spite of it all, they still loved each other and found a way to be together.

Sorry,  don't mean to sound so preachy,  just had to get it off my chest.  Thanks for listening to me.       

[lancecowboy]

No need to apologize BA, that's why we are here, to share what's on our mind and heart with each other. You said yours beautifully.

I agree with the liberating aspect of owning one's own uniqueness. Gay Pride, Black Pride, Latino Pride, Irish Pride, etc. What I caution is simply to not allow one aspect defines the whole person. We can be gay AND Black AND Latino AND Irish all at the same time. It is the cutting apart of different aspects, isolating one from another, which I find disturbing.

It is indeed, as you said, an easy way out sometimes, to use label to categorize experiences and people, but it is VERY important, in my humble opinion, that we acknowledge that the label is an approximation of the real thing. No label can be true, by definition, if 100% accuracy is what we mean by true.

Yes, Gay Pride is an easy way to embrace self-acceptance, but it is the other parts of the self which also need accepting, and sometimes, all too often left on the roadside by the gay liberation movement. We need to accept Self, gay or not. Self Pride. 

[mimi]

No need to apologize BA, that's why we are here, to share what's on our mind and heart with each other. You said yours beautifully.

I agree with the liberating aspect of owning one's own uniqueness. Gay Pride, Black Pride, Latino Pride, Irish Pride, etc. What I caution is simply to not allow one aspect defines the whole person. We can be gay AND Black AND Latino AND Irish all at the same time. It is the cutting apart of different aspects, isolating one from another, which I find disturbing.

It is indeed, as you said, an easy way out sometimes, to use label to categorize experiences and people, but it is VERY important, in my humble opinion, that we acknowledge that the label is an approximation of the real thing. No label can be true, by definition, if 100% accuracy is what we mean by true.

Yes, Gay Pride is an easy way to embrace self-acceptance, but it is the other parts of the self which also need accepting, and sometimes, all too often left on the roadside by the gay liberation movement. We need to accept Self, gay or not. Self Pride. 

Great point LC

that's the thing about labels - theyre so inadequate when defining a human being. The thing is, we CAN be more than just one, as you said. And even if we do fit even a few labels, they still dont sum us up entirely. Thats the beauty of humanity - we're so intricate and detailed, we cannot be summed up by labels.

I must ask, therefore, what is the point of having labels if they dont do their job anyways? We label things so that we can have the false sense of security which is gleaned by understanding our world entirely (something which in truth is impossible). Labels were designed for this purpose - so that we may feel safer in supposedly understanding our world completely. But the truth is, we can never understand the world or human beings fully, so then the whole purpose of the labelling system is defeated.

[lancecowboy]

Great point LC

...labels  are so inadequate when defining a human being. The thing is, we CAN be more than just one, as you said. And even if we do fit even a few labels, they still dont sum us up entirely. Thats the beauty of humanity - we're so intricate and detailed, we cannot be summed up by labels.

I love the way you expressed the idea of label's limitation...inadequate, and the beauty of humanity...intricately detailed beyond description. 

I must ask, therefore, what is the point of having labels if they dont do their job anyways? We label things so that we can have the false sense of security which is gleaned by understanding our world entirely (something which in truth is impossible). Labels were designed for this purpose - so that we may feel safer in supposedly understanding our world completely. But the truth is, we can never understand the world or human beings fully, so then the whole purpose of the labelling system is defeated.

Labels, like language, were invented to give humanity power over the surrounding, over all things. We use language to communicate ideas, to pass on knowledge from one generation to another. It is absolutely essential and the defining quality of humanity. Labels work great with simple things, like chair, table, concrete, and even with abstract thought to some extent, like happy, sad, angry. However, as you pointed out, language in its current state of development is inadequate to describe the intricate complexity of humanity, especially in the area most defy description, the area of poets and philosophers, the qualities of love, of soul. Any attempts to force a precise description is as you said so well...inadequate. Great writers and great artists can endow greater powers to their words and images, as Annie and Ang Lee had done in Brokeback Mountain, but mere mortals like us, simply do not have the words, or labels, no matter how hard we emulate.

Thank you, maddy.  You put what I have believed for so long, into a framework of clarity. That's what I love about this place.   

[mimi]

I love the way you expressed the idea of label's limitation...inadequate, and the beauty of humanity...intricately detailed beyond description. 

Labels, like language, were invented to give humanity power over the surrounding, over all things. We use language to communicate ideas, to pass on knowledge from one generation to another. It is absolutely essential and the defining quality of humanity. Labels work great with simple things, like chair, table, concrete, and even with abstract thought to some extent, like happy, sad, angry. However, as you pointed out, language in its current state of development is inadequate to describe the intricate complexity of humanity, especially in the area most defy description, the area of poets and philosophers, the qualities of love, of soul. Any attempts to force a precise description is as you said so well...inadequate. Great writers and great artists can endow greater powers to their words and images, as Annie and Ang Lee had done in Brokeback Mountain, but mere mortals like us, simply do not have the words, or labels, no matter how hard we emulate.

Thank you, maddy.  You put what I have believed for so long, into a framework of clarity. That's what I love about this place.   

No, thank you, for allowing me to express my thougts like this