Topic: was ennis gay ?

[rdx]

Ennis was gay, he fighted against it all his life because his dad traumatized him when he was a boy (the dead Earl scene).  A few hints... the reunion kiss scene, he initiated the kiss and what a kiss it was.  

The first ''fishing trip'', the whole scene on the mountain, Jack caressing his ear and cheek at the end of the scene... Ennis doesn't push him back.

The flashback scene from their last encounter, once again he is the initiator tought this scene is maybe an intimate moment but nothing sexual, he was just happy to held his lover (and was obviously in love).

The two shirts scenes, the first one when he finds the shirts...   :\'( The last scene, still with the shirts... Jack I swear...  :\'( :\'( :\'(

What was it? I swear I loved you, I swear I regret... I don't want to go off topic but IMO Ennis was gay, he was just the victim of his epoch, life experience and education.  I  know it's sad  

I totally second what chameau wrote (years ago). My opinion is that there is no doubt whether Ennis was gay or not: he was. He was born gay, he was gay with Jack, he was gay with Alma&Cassie, he was gay 'till the day he died. Jack was Ennis's only male affection (as far as we know), but that doesn't change anything. He was more passionate with Jack than with either Alma or Cassie.

My opinion is based on my life experience and what I/you/everybody can see happening even today: gay men married to women: big news. I'm not, but I think that everyone knows someone who is like that: a colleague, a (distant) relative or a friend.  

I recommend the book "Beyond Brokeback: the Impact of a Film". Read it, cry on it, be happy about it. Real life Ennises and Jacks, and others too, telling their stories.

Another consideration: the words queer, gay and homosexual. There are, at least subtle, differences in these words, how they are understood in time and regionally. My knowledge of English language and American culture is limited, but could someone, please, clarify this matter. The lines "You know I ain't queer; Me neither" are quite descriptive and true. They weren't queer, they need to be described with another word...fill in, please.

Think about it before you bash me..

[lancecowboy]

  Thinking...

  but no bashing 

I might have argued with you even as little as a month ago, but I have learned that some gay men, even exclusively 100% homosexual gay men, can love just one man, and no others. In the case of Ennis, and some men, homophobia keeps him/them from feeling attracted to any other men but the one they connected with, through whatever coincidence/serendipity. As Heath said so well about Ennis, "He was a homophobic gay man."

You hit the nail right on the head, rdx...that Ennis felt passion only with Jack and no other.  That's a good measure of sexuality, passion.

[rdx]

Hi guys, thanks for waking this up, I’ll jump in. To quote one of our famous Usonian Presidents (go ahead, Google it) “it all depends on what the meaning of is, is”. Or, it all depends on what your meaning of GAY, is. This is not a little question; for some the word itself has a significant and highly important meaning – especially for those of, or in, the gay community.

Not to belabor the point, but – to me there can be no doubt Ennis was homosexual, by definition. He had sex, repeatedly, with a man, and even admitted fantasizing about having sex with a man. “I wrung it out a hundred times thinkin’ about you”. I feel this shows he not only liked it, he knew he liked it, and wanted Jack to know he liked it.

But “gay”?, hmmm. Having lived in San Francisco in the late 1970s, when the word “gay” was directly and specifically meant to mean not only homosexual - but also, proud, liberated, out, and unashamedly queer, GAY was used to reflect a view, a new view, of the liberated homosexual community. Ennis was IMHO in no way “gay”. He exhibited none of those traits. Ennis Delmar in the Gay Pride parade? Huh?

I'm quoting jackster to answer my question. Again, I second totally, thank you jackster.

You hit the nail right on the head, rdx...that Ennis felt passion only with Jack and no other.  That's a good measure of sexuality, passion.

Exactly, thanks LC.

I rest my case.

[WildCatIsle]

Addressing homosexuality as a modality of loving' desire, Ennis is gay or homosexual. 

Ennis is a man, he loves another man: Jack, her unique and true love; he not love Alma, her  affair with Cassie is to cover up for to her homosexuality. Ennis is scared, afraid that people know that he is homosexual.

Ennis a homophobic gay man? I cannot watch Ennis like this, he is scared to much by homophobia, to feel homosexual, but homophobic?

I thought

[lancecowboy]

Welcome to the discussion WildcatIsle.

Addressing homosexuality as a modality of loving' desire, Ennis is gay or homosexual. 

Ennis is a man, he loves another man: Jack, her unique and true love;

Agreed.

  he not love Alma,

I think Ennis loved Alma and the girls in his own way, but without passion.

her  affair with Cassie is to cover up for to her homosexuality.

Ennis did not seek out Cassie. He even tried to discourage her...imagine trying out a pick up line like, "I was castrating calves earlier."  But he had no reasonable way to fend her off, and he was lonely. Even Junior recognized this and suggested that she move in with him so he would not be so lonely, and be susceptible to Cassie or any other woman's advances. 

Ennis is scared, afraid that people know that he is homosexual.

That's the point. He is homophobic.

Ennis a homophobic gay man? I cannot watch Ennis like this, he is scared to much by homophobia, to feel homosexual, but homophobic?

I thought

It is difficult for any straight actor to play a homosexual man, but to play a homophobic homosexual man to the degree of perfection that made Ennis real, was Heath's genius.

[brandedandrew]

Ennis lived on the "down low",   which is not so strange,  a lot of guys do this.  They  avoid emotional ties in order to fill that need not met in their "straight life".   Ennis mistake is that he fell hard for Jack,  and couldn't let him completely go after the reunion.  If it wasn't for that fact,  Ennis would have resigned himself to a sweet memory.   

Ennis a homophobic gay man, I'm not too sure about that.  phobia in itself  implies  an irrational fear of something or someone else.   Ennis displays none of those things.  If he did he wouldn't have spoke with respect and sympathy of Rich and Earl,  he know what they were,  and that they lived together, but yet he goes year after year to see Jack.  His real fear is that he would have the same fate, as Rich and Earl. 

That's the pity and I think the message in the story, that love comes in different ways,  that we are all human,  and gay love is as old as heterosexual love, and is as deep and lasting to those who are lucky to find it.  It shows how hate destroys lives of people who want and need love.   It shows to what extend we will go just to have a small piece of it.  JMO     

[Inner_Me]

"was ennis gay ?"

As many people said, since he had a sexual/"emotional" relationship with Alma, I rather think he was bisexual in terms of sexuality.

I, as a person, dislike thinking in drawers, people tend to create terms for something to generalize it and create an understandable theme.
Homo/Hetero/Bi/Asexuality and similar themes are so much more complex to what is anchored in most people's consciousness, yet it's easier
to reduce something to a minimum in order to deal with it.

And by the way, what would you folks have done, if you were all alone with Jake/Jack, somewhere out in mountains no one comes to, for months? Sleep and herd sheep? 

[WildCatIsle]

Welcome to the discussion WildcatIsle.
 Agreed.  I think Ennis loved Alma and the girls in his own way, but without passion.  Ennis did not seek out Cassie. He even tried to discourage her...imagine trying out a pick up line like, "I was castrating calves earlier."  But he had no reasonable way to fend her off, and he was lonely. Even Junior recognized this and suggested that she move in with him so he would not be so lonely, and be susceptible to Cassie or any other woman's advances.  That's the point. He is homophobic.

Good point of view

It is difficult for any straight actor to play a homosexual man, but to play a homophobic homosexual man to the degree of perfection that made Ennis real, was Heath's genius.
[/quote][/sup]
It is difficult for any straight actor to play a homosexual man, but to play a homophobic homosexual man to the degree of perfection that made Ennis real, was Heath's genius.
[/quote]

[Inner_Me]

That's the point. He is homophobic.

Was he really homophobic? I just got it as far as that he can't accept it himself, but doesn't have any (negative) feelings towards other gay men.
Like with most other people, he's like 'Live and let live'.

[lancecowboy]

Was he really homophobic? I just got it as far as that he can't accept it himself, but doesn't have any (negative) feelings towards other gay men.
Like with most other people, he's like 'Live and let live'.

That's a good question. Was he really homophobic?

In my opinion, there are different degrees, just like coming out has different stages.

Ennis is not a hateful person, like his old man, but he is repulsed by any association with being labeled as homosexual. Is that the same as homophobia?  What is the saying, "Those who complain the loudest about faggots are probably secretly gay?"

The first impact of homophobia is its denial of a gay person self-acceptance. What happens after that depends on the character of the individual. In violent angry hateful people, homophobia turns deadly. In more gentle kind compassionate souls, it turns inward, into self-hatred. It is why suicide is so common with gay teens - homophobia makes the awkward stages of adolescence even more unbearable.

Ennis always had a low opinion of himself, because his homophobia is always pointing an accusatory finger at him. "I am nothing. I am no where." That was a deep revelation that shocked even himself, and definitely Jack.

It is out of this depth of self-hatred that Ennis climbed after Jack's death, through the epiphany in the diner with Cassie's confession of love, and in Lightning Flat with Jack's Ma's acceptance, and of course, the discovery of the two shirts. From the depth of despair, Ennis held onto the two shirts and knew that he was loved, he was worthy of love, and his homophobia was shattered, exposed as the lie that it was. He was not worthless, repulsive, vile like his pa used to say about queers. He was loved and treasured like the two shirts.

[jackster]

Was he really homophobic?. . .

What is homophobic? To quote the not always infallible Wikipedia:

Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived non-heterosexual orientation.
 . . . . The word homophobia first appeared in print in an article written for the May 23, 1969, edition of the American tabloid Screw, in which the word was used to refer to heterosexual men's fear that others might think they are gay. (my bolds)

It would seem by these admittedly broad definitions, Ennis was indeed homophobic.

An' here I always thought it was a cellphone with built in pen for queers.

[lancecowboy]

What is homophobic? To quote the not always infallible Wikipedia:

Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived non-heterosexual orientation.
 . . . . The word homophobia first appeared in print in an article written for the May 23, 1969, edition of the American tabloid Screw, in which the word was used to refer to heterosexual men's fear that others might think they are gay. (my bolds)

It would seem by these admittedly broad definitions, Ennis was indeed homophobic.

An' here I always thought it was a cellphone with built in pen for queers.

Thanks, Jackster. That's a great reference. I never knew LGBT owes such a great debt to George Weinberg, who fought to have homosexuality removed from the list of mental illness in the DSM.  I think every Pride day should have a moment to honor this STRAIGHT man!

[brandedandrew]

Great posts,  You guys have me thinking, the definition given of "the homophobic gay"  seems to me, fits Ennis's father perfectly.   The repressed self hating homosexual who engages in anti gay crimes to show how straight he is.

What kind  of self-hate does it take to tie a man by his penis, the object of arousal and want, the ultimate symbol of maleness, and than drag him at a back of pickup till its pulled off.  How homophobic gay can one get?    How homophobic gay does one need to be to do that kind of crime in that particular way?   
 
Ennis was the next victim of the "homophobic gay",  who proudly shows his sons his handiwork.  Because Earl shows his "gayness" and this what happens to men who dare to do that.  Victims of this hate was not only Rich and Earl, but Ennis too.   Ennis's father was not only a "homophobic gay", murderer,  but a child abuser to boot.

Ennis could of followed that same path, he could of killed Jack that first night,  but he didn't.   There was something inside him that prevented it from doing such a thing.   Maybe it was Jack's love for him,  the love he had for Jack or both.  Anyway there was something the old man couldn't kill off.

This is just somethings that's been going on in my mind while I read this thread,  which is one of my favorites, thanks.

[WildCatIsle]

Great posts,  You guys have me thinking, the definition given of "the homophobic gay"  seems to me, fits Ennis's father perfectly.   The repressed self hating homosexual who engages in anti gay crimes to show how straight he is.

What kind  of self-hate does it take to tie a man by his penis, the object of arousal and want, the ultimate symbol of maleness, and than drag him at a back of pickup till its pulled off.  How homophobic gay can one get?    How homophobic gay does one need to be to do that kind of crime in that particular way?  
 
Ennis was the next victim of the "homophobic gay",  who proudly shows his sons his handiwork.  Because Earl shows his "gayness" and this what happens to men who dare to do that.  Victims of this hate was not only Rich and Earl, but Ennis too.   Ennis's father was not only a "homophobic gay", murderer,  but a child abuser to boot.

I agree

Ennis could of followed that same path, he could of killed Jack that first night,  but he didn't.  

Merely, he doesn't do it because he isn't a homophobic man. He made it very quite clear in the tent scene; It is surprised, but he does not loosen, does not repel  Jack. This is more explicit in SS by AP "...and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect
c*ck. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his
knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours
and, ..."

There was something inside him that prevented it from doing such a thing.   Maybe it was Jack's love for him,  the love he had for Jack or both.  Anyway there was something the old man couldn't kill off.

This is just somethings that's been going on in my mind while I read this thread,  which is one of my favorites, thanks.

[lancecowboy]

Interesting proposition, BA.

I don't necessarily agree with Ennis's Pa being gay, but certainly and absolutely agree with him being a child abuser. It's not just physical abuse that leaves scars. Emotional abuse leaves deeper and more permanent scars. You are right that Ennis had something special inside him that stopped him from repeating the cycle of abuse, hitting his own little girls, or killing Jack that first night. I never thought of that.  

Here is another thought. Perhaps Ennis would've grown up repeating the cycle of abuse...his bouts of anger and all. But there is something special in Jack, the spark that ignited the something special in Ennis, and stopped the cycle that first night. Once Ennis came to grip with his homophobia on SNIT, the cycle was broken for good. The feeling of pawing the white out of the Moon can do that to a guy...sending anger issues packing.

By the time they came off the mountain, the anger in Ennis resurfaced, first with that sucker punch, and later, in the alley, as anger turned inward, into that gut wrench.

It occurs to me after thinking about this, that depression kept Ennis from any joy in life except briefly with Alma in the snow, which probably reminded him of his time with Jack. With Alma all bundled up in thick winter clothing and half hidden in a tuque, I bet it wasn't hard to do, like when he flips Alma on her stomach in bed.

That's the reason the reunion was so important and significant for Ennis...as he jumps down those steps, he was relieved Jack didn't hold a grudge against him for that sucker punch and he was back there on the mountain feeling that same feeling of pawing the white out of the moon again. I bet Ennis at the landing, saying "Jack f@#king Twist", was feeling ready to fly, jumping off those stairs if he could.

That's the something special in Jack that sparked the something special in Ennis...acceptance, friendship, respect, finding a companion where none was expected. And where did Jack get this something special? In my opinion, it had everything to do with Jack's Ma, the Pentacost who stuck it out with an abusive husband on a desolate plain in the far corner of a dusty wind swept state. Jack was a dreamer because his Ma was a dreamer, too. I can just hear all the stories his Ma told him when he was a boy, nursing him in tears after another abusive episode from the old man. You can't start a fire without a spark, and that spark came down the ages in Jack's Ma's faith.   Yes, I know...  

Back to your regular programming. Yes, BA. That's why I love it here, too. All the discussion keeps me thinking.   and  

[jackster]

. . . Ennis could of followed that same path, he could of killed Jack that first night, but he didn't. There was something inside him that prevented it from doing such a thing. Maybe it was Jack's love for him, the love he had for Jack or both. Anyway there was something the old man couldn't kill off.

Yup. Annie is such a talent. Ennis is a very complicated character, remember in the SS how Ennis tells Jack about his relationship with his brother, how his father tells him to fix it, and then what Ennis does “Don't say nothin' and get it over with quick”. And of course all the other violent incidents we see with Ennis, the alleyway, the 4th of July, the Black & Blue Bar, etc. But then there’s Jack Twist, his primary reaction to Jack’s FNIT advance is to just f*** him (get it over quick?). But then, after his lone reflection on the mountain, he comes back to Jack, SNIT, uncertain and apologetic. How does seeing Earl at age nine play into this evolution? What is it that allows or creates this transformation of Ennis into a different sort of character? I think some of what Annie is telling us here is that even Ennis Del Mar, a man who by every account should be a brutal tough homophobic SOB, even he is capable and to some degree possibly unable to resist or reject this force of nature, this force of love. We can’t always choose who we fall in love with.

[myprivatejack]

We have said here that we're against levels,and much more when referring to private subjects that hits in the innest side of ourselves.But it's true also that we have to define ourselves as a member of a social,sexual,ethnic or whatever group;so in this sense,it could be accepted to define Ennis as gay,bisexual or whatever also.IMO,however,there's a contradiction,two different ways of being and feeling this situation in Ennis-nothing strange in him,on the other side...-; he's afraid of being seen as a "queer" but I have always thought that the unlucky episode with his father-a real child abuser,as you have said-made awake in him a feeling of attraction-repulsion towards homosexuality and homosexuals.A repulsion that surely would have made him live half slept during all his life if he had experienced the life that was destined for him,with a wife and some children,like a "normal" man must do,according to him...But an attraction that took Jack's figure almost by chance,since the intimacy and loneliness up on the mountain approached them as much as this one could take the initiative and wake him up from this "gay lethargy".
Was Ennis homophobic? In this sense,you have said many interesting points above...According to the Wikipedia article that Jackster has posted (very good,Jackster ¡  )homophobia is not only an irrepressible and irrational hate towards homosexuality,but in a,let's say,softer sense,the fear of being taken as gay for the others.Ennis talked with a certain sympathy towards Earl and Rich,so he wasn't a "negative" homophobic;but I have always thought also that sometimes-or more often than he wished-he felt disgust and almost hate towards him for the one he had fallen for,and even towards Jack for being the subject of this love.He lived all his life in an impossible balance between his feelings and his duties,his deepest wishes and the way people had told him he must feel,his love for a man and his hate for loving this man...What could perfectly make of him a "possitive" homophobic man.I don't know if all this makes any sense,but what I know for sure is that only a person like Heath could "enter" so much into the character until defining him in the right way.

[lancecowboy]

Yup. Annie is such a talent. Ennis is a very complicated character, remember in the SS how Ennis tells Jack about his relationship with his brother, how his father tells him to fix it, and then what Ennis does “Don't say nothin' and get it over with quick”. And of course all the other violent incidents we see with Ennis, the alleyway, the 4th of July, the Black & Blue Bar, etc. But then there’s Jack Twist, his primary reaction to Jack’s FNIT advance is to just f*** him (get it over quick?). But then, after his lone reflection on the mountain, he comes back to Jack, SNIT, uncertain and apologetic. How does seeing Earl at age nine play into this evolution? What is it that allows or creates this transformation of Ennis into a different sort of character? I think some of what Annie is telling us here is that even Ennis Del Mar, a man who by every account should be a brutal tough homophobic SOB, even he is capable and to some degree possibly unable to resist or reject this force of nature, this force of love. We can’t always choose who we fall in love with.

As always, Jackster.  

[brandedandrew]

Interesting proposition, BA.

I don't necessarily agree with Ennis's Pa being gay, but certainly and absolutely agree with him being a child abuser. It's not just physical abuse that leaves scars. Emotional abuse leaves deeper and more permanent scars. You are right that Ennis had something special inside him that stopped him from repeating the cycle of abuse, hitting his own little girls, or killing Jack that first night. I never thought of that.  

Here is another thought. Perhaps Ennis would've grown up repeating the cycle of abuse...his bouts of anger and all. But there is something special in Jack, the spark that ignited the something special in Ennis, and stopped the cycle that first night. Once Ennis came to grip with his homophobia on SNIT, the cycle was broken for good. The feeling of pawing the white out of the Moon can do that to a guy...sending anger issues packing.

By the time they came off the mountain, the anger in Ennis resurfaced, first with that sucker punch, and later, in the alley, as anger turned inward, into that gut wrench.

It occurs to me after thinking about this, that depression kept Ennis from any joy in life except briefly with Alma in the snow, which probably reminded him of his time with Jack. With Alma all bundled up in thick winter clothing and half hidden in a tuque, I bet it wasn't hard to do, like when he flips Alma on her stomach in bed.

That's the reason the reunion was so important and significant for Ennis...as he jumps down those steps, he was relieved Jack didn't hold a grudge against him for that sucker punch and he was back there on the mountain feeling that same feeling of pawing the white out of the moon again. I bet Ennis at the landing, saying "Jack f@#king Twist", was feeling ready to fly, jumping off those stairs if he could.

That's the something special in Jack that sparked the something special in Ennis...acceptance, friendship, respect, finding a companion where none was expected. And where did Jack get this something special? In my opinion, it had everything to do with Jack's Ma, the Pentacost who stuck it out with an abusive husband on a desolate plain in the far corner of a dusty wind swept state. Jack was a dreamer because his Ma was a dreamer, too. I can just hear all the stories his Ma told him when he was a boy, nursing him in tears after another abusive episode from the old man. You can't start a fire without a spark, and that spark came down the ages in Jack's Ma's faith.   Yes, I know...  

Back to your regular programming. Yes, BA. That's why I love it here, too. All the discussion keeps me thinking.   and  

Hey Lancecowboy,

No problem,  we all see things differently,   its something I thought I throw out there.  Its funny how you at the end of your post you write about Jack's parents.   Jack had a protector in his mother.  His father nothing but another abuser, a old bitter wind bag wondering how he got a "sissy" for a son.

The only distinct difference between Jack and Ennis,  Jack felt his father would never accept him,  Ennis knew his father would kill him.    Which makes me think that is why Jack needed and wanted a place of his own with Ennis,  his own where he could be himself, and with the man he loved,  yes he was a big dreamer, he saw light at the end of the tunnel. 

Ennis comes from a darker, twisted stock. His father brought the death to his sons,  and encourage violence towards each other.  Ennis's father showed that the most intimate,  personal part of yourself,  can bring death.  I wonder is that why Ennis was still a virgin at his age. 

Than Jack comes along,  and "BAM!!!!!"  Sex was the first night,  Intimacy was the second night,  and there was something about Jack as oppose to Alma that Ennis took the plunge.     He couldn't resist it,  fight it but gave into it,  and later couldn't live without it, but his father's ghost returns.   Talk about Hamlet on crack.  lol.         

[mimi]

hahaha gotta love your hamlet on crack analogy 

and its an interesting point u raised about the sex. maybe Ennis was afraid of the intimacy, like you said, or maybe it was simply that he hadnt met the right gal (or guy as we later learn )

either way, it happened with Jack that's for sure! talk about gun's goin off!
but at the same time that passion he shared with jack doesnt exactly prove that ennis was gay. i tend to think thety were simply two people who fell in love. leave out the labels, because thats really what the story is trying to convey

[lancecowboy]

Hey Lancecowboy,

No problem,  we all see things differently,   its something I thought I throw out there.  Its funny how you at the end of your post you write about Jack's parents.   Jack had a protector in his mother.  His father nothing but another abuser, a old bitter wind bag wondering how he got a "sissy" for a son.

Interesting point. Ennis's Pa may not be a model parent but at least he didn't piss on Ennis or made him feel worthless. He just had high expectations and cruel methods. Jack's old man, on the other hand, was emotionally as well as physically abusive. Ennis could look up to his pa, but Jack could have nothing but contempt for the old man. In a sense, Ennis's fear of his father personifies his homophobia.

The only distinct difference between Jack and Ennis,  Jack felt his father would never accept him,  Ennis knew his father would kill him.    Which makes me think that is why Jack needed and wanted a place of his own with Ennis,  his own where he could be himself, and with the man he loved,  yes he was a big dreamer, he saw light at the end of the tunnel. 

Exactly. Jack knew he already failed as far as his old man is concerned. So riding more than bull was nothing too terrible for Jack. Ennis still tried to live up to his old man's expectations. If it were not for Jack, he'd never sleep with a man, or a woman until they got married.

Ennis comes from a darker, twisted stock. His father brought the death to his sons,  and encourage violence towards each other.  Ennis's father showed that the most intimate,  personal part of yourself,  can bring death.  I wonder is that why Ennis was still a virgin at his age. 

Yup. For sure. Ennis's old man was the typical hypocrite...do as I say, not as I do. All the old rules were laid down thick at a young age. Ennis was the kind of child who would follow the rules. Even as an adult, he would never thought breaking the law, or crossing Aquierre. It's only when Jack spurred him on, that he began to learn to look at authority figures with a different perspective, and not a little contempt. Fu@# Aquierre.

Than Jack comes along,  and "BAM!!!!!"  Sex was the first night,  Intimacy was the second night,  and there was something about Jack as oppose to Alma that Ennis took the plunge.     He couldn't resist it,  fight it but gave into it,  and later couldn't live without it, but his father's ghost returns.   Talk about Hamlet on crack.  lol.         

Firstly, it took a whole month or so, for the two of them working together building a camp, a life in the wilderness, before their friendship got off on firm footing. And with a little help from the whiskey, Ennis began to talk more freely, and Jack fell in love...enough to risk it on FNIT. Ennis already felt good from the friendship, from the whiskey. If Jack tried anything on their first night, or even without a friendship after a month together, the story would be very different. But because Jack was Jack, and their friendship caught on fire that FNIT, and more consciously on SNIT...Ennis also fell in love the rest of that summer whenever they had their brilliant if infrequent coupling.

Secondly, I don't know if Hamlet is appropriate in this case. I don't know if Ennis missed his father. He might miss the financial support, but I don't suppose there is much love lost. Also, Hamlet wanted to avenge his father, especially a villain so vile, but Ennis had no one to blame but the parents who missed the only curve in fifty miles. It just occurred to me that of all the words in the English language to relay the story of his parents' accident, Ennis chose "They missed it." Or did he? I am too lazy to look up the screen play and short story. If he did, perhaps that's a Freudian slip...they missed it; I miss them. 

But I agree that it is likely the ghost of his father who kept homophobia foremost on his mind. For better or for worse, parents definitely can have a great impact on their children. That's for sure.

[daliah]

i dont think he was.He grown up by the taboo of being gay.His father make them watch the massacre of a killed gay.He has always feared the concept of "gay".Being gay is so utopian for him

[Inner_Me]

i dont think he was.He grown up by the taboo of being gay.His father make them watch the massacre of a killed gay.He has always feared the concept of "gay".Being gay is so utopian for him

Utopian... That's interesting.
Well, we live in the 21st century. We have a different perspective upon homosexuality than people had a few years ago.

I hardly think Ennis was "gay", atleast not in modern terms. I doubt he even knew himself WHO he was.

[brandedandrew]

Interesting point. Ennis's Pa may not be a model parent but at least he didn't piss on Ennis or made him feel worthless. He just had high expectations and cruel methods. Jack's old man, on the other hand, was emotionally as well as physically abusive. Ennis could look up to his pa, but Jack could have nothing but contempt for the old man. In a sense, Ennis's fear of his father personifies his homophobia.

Exactly. Jack knew he already failed as far as his old man is concerned. So riding more than bull was nothing too terrible for Jack. Ennis still tried to live up to his old man's expectations. If it were not for Jack, he'd never sleep with a man, or a woman until they got married.

Yup. For sure. Ennis's old man was the typical hypocrite...do as I say, not as I do. All the old rules were laid down thick at a young age. Ennis was the kind of child who would follow the rules. Even as an adult, he would never thought breaking the law, or crossing Aquierre. It's only when Jack spurred him on, that he began to learn to look at authority figures with a different perspective, and not a little contempt. Fu@# Aquierre.

Firstly, it took a whole month or so, for the two of them working together building a camp, a life in the wilderness, before their friendship got off on firm footing. And with a little help from the whiskey, Ennis began to talk more freely, and Jack fell in love...enough to risk it on FNIT. Ennis already felt good from the friendship, from the whiskey. If Jack tried anything on their first night, or even without a friendship after a month together, the story would be very different. But because Jack was Jack, and their friendship caught on fire that FNIT, and more consciously on SNIT...Ennis also fell in love the rest of that summer whenever they had their brilliant if infrequent coupling.

Secondly, I don't know if Hamlet is appropriate in this case. I don't know if Ennis missed his father. He might miss the financial support, but I don't suppose there is much love lost. Also, Hamlet wanted to avenge his father, especially a villain so vile, but Ennis had no one to blame but the parents who missed the only curve in fifty miles. It just occurred to me that of all the words in the English language to relay the story of his parents' accident, Ennis chose "They missed it." Or did he? I am too lazy to look up the screen play and short story. If he did, perhaps that's a Freudian slip...they missed it; I miss them. 

But I agree that it is likely the ghost of his father who kept homophobia foremost on his mind. For better or for worse, parents definitely can have a great impact on their children. That's for sure.

Neither father would be candidates for "daddy of the year",  beating and pissing on a child is cruel, abusive, and damages a child self of themselves as a human being,  but just as cruel is physiological abuse, and to my unskilled mind on stuff like this,  maybe more damaging.   It changes someone view of themselves and the world.  Its scars them without leaving marks on the body,  but marks on their soul,  it to changes their sense of themselves, and how they view the world and themselves in that world.  Its been said here over and over how self hating Ennis was,  how damaged he was.  Maybe at nine Ennis could of felt like Rich and Earl, and admire those "old birds". Maybe, he had those feelings.   Being gay is not all about who we do it with,  but who we are as human being. It could be "I've always felt this way, but its wrong, and I could die".  He struggled inwardly trying to keep himself alive, knowing who he was could kill him, and knowing what he was his father would kill him without a second thought.  Ennis knew what queer was,  and it wasn't him.

JMO.   

[lancecowboy]

Neither father would be candidates for "daddy of the year",  beating and pissing on a child is cruel, abusive, and damages a child self of themselves as a human being,  but just as cruel is physiological abuse, and to my unskilled mind on stuff like this,  maybe more damaging.   It changes someone view of themselves and the world.  Its scars them without leaving marks on the body,  but marks on their soul,  it to changes their sense of themselves, and how they view the world and themselves in that world.  Its been said here over and over how self hating Ennis was,  how damaged he was.  Maybe at nine Ennis could of felt like Rich and Earl, and admire those "old birds". Maybe, he had those feelings.   Being gay is not all about who we do it with,  but who we are as human being. It could be "I've always felt this way, but its wrong, and I could die".  He struggled inwardly trying to keep himself alive, knowing who he was could kill him, and knowing what he was his father would kill him without a second thought.  Ennis knew what queer was,  and it wasn't him.

JMO.    

Don't get me wrong. I am not defending Ennis's old man. They are both Bad. All I was saying was that Jack's old man was toxic...in the sense that he would daily put down Jack's own self-worth ... "never good enough for the old man, no way" and Ennis's Pa was no better. They are six of one and half a dozen of the other.

My point was that it takes a specially kind of sick person, to piss on their own child. Then again, it also takes a specially kind of sick person to show his own child a mutilated corpse, perhaps even did the deed himself.

Like I said, six of one...half a dozen of the other.

[myprivatejack]

For me,both men were toxic and malignant as a fathers;both,each of them in their own way,let an indelible mark inside their children.The only difference -enough difference,IMO...-is that Jack's,as Lance says,put down his son's own self worth,while we don't know for sure how supportive Ennis's was(even if I doubt it,frankly...).But they had an enormous influence in their children's way of seeing life and love and their way of loving in the end.
Enormous enough as to be,surely,the root of their love story and later tragedy.Because Jack's father increased in him the wish of love and be loved,as well as someone else could appreciate his qualities;but Ennis's not only made him want somebody who loved him only for being absent-what would have been logical in any case,on the other hand...-.No,not only this,but he increased in the boy the unconscious wish of loving "in another way",since he remarked how bad this was since he was 9.Put two uprooted boys longing for loving and being loved with these vital antecedents together,and it's not strange that it happenned what we know up on the mountain.Well,maybe we'll have to thank Mr.Del Mar and Mr.Twist for having influenced so much in their sons,even if in the wrong way,according to them ¡ 

[lancecowboy]

Sorry mpj, I am sure you said it tongue in cheek, but I wouldn't wish these horrible "fathers" on anyone, much less thanking them.

Jack is Jack thanks to his Ma. The old man had nothing to do with it. Without him, Jack would have been even better.

Ennis is also Ennis because he was loved by his Mom. The story he related during the dozy embrace showed a loving mother.

Ennis and Jack would have a sweet life without the hateful old men in the way.

[myprivatejack]

Sorry mpj, I am sure you said it tongue in cheek, but I wouldn't wish these horrible "fathers" on anyone, much less thanking them.

Jack is Jack thanks to his Ma. The old man had nothing to do with it. Without him, Jack would have been even better.

Ennis is also Ennis because he was loved by his Mom. The story he related during the dozy embrace showed a loving mother.

Ennis and Jack would have a sweet life without the hateful old men in the way.

If "tongue in cheek" means being ironic,of course I was ¡ I supposed it had been clear enough according to my way of explaining my "theory" that I wouldn't wish anybody to have-or suffer-this kind of fathers...Of course,both Jack and Ennis knew what love and being loved was thanks to their mothers,who were the right counterpart to the devilish influence of the male part of their parents.
But there's life beyond mothers when you grow older,and what I meant in this sense is that two uprooted boys with a great need of being loved but also being and feeling themselves valued for someone else than their mothers would have a great possibility of feeling attached to one another.It was in this sense and not any other that I was referring to Mr.Twist and Mr.DelMar influence in their children;because they increased with their behaviour the boys need of love,being loved and accepted,as only another uprooted boy could give.I don't know if all this makes sense...

[lancecowboy]

No worries, mpj. I knew what you meant, but I just want to make sure it is clearly stated. It's easy sometimes for these subtle ironies to be lost in translation.

If "tongue in cheek" means being ironic,of course I was ¡ I supposed it had been clear enough according to my way of explaining my "theory" that I wouldn't wish anybody to have-or suffer-this kind of fathers...Of course,both Jack and Ennis knew what love and being loved was thanks to their mothers,who were the right counterpart to the devilish influence of the male part of their parents.

Good observation that the mothers are the counterparts/opposite of the fathers.   Ying and Yang.

But there's life beyond mothers when you grow older,and what I meant in this sense is that two uprooted boys with a great need of being loved but also being and feeling themselves valued for someone else than their mothers would have a great possibility of feeling attached to one another.

Beautifully stated and exactly what I feel about the basis for the love between Ennis and Jack...their great need to be loved, valued, and the surprise at finding it fulfilled by someone unexpected.

It was in this sense and not any other that I was referring to Mr.Twist and Mr.DelMar influence in their children;because they increased with their behaviour the boys need of love,being loved and accepted,as only another uprooted boy could give.I don't know if all this makes sense...

Here, I respectfully disagree. As we said, the source of love in these cowboys came from their mothers. Without the horrible fathers, the boys would be free to soar, and love as well as needing to be loved. The fathers diminished the love in their sons, not enhanced them. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

This image came to mind as I struggle to explain how I see the situation. Love is like water. Mothers are sources of water in their children. Greater the mother's love, stronger and more powerful the currents that spring from the souls of the children. Fathers are like the channels that shape the flow of the water, directing them where to go, how to do useful work, or get wasted spilling over banks, draining uselessly into the swamps. The horrible fathers made their sons lives miserable, by either capping those powerful wells shut, as in the case of Ennis, so that the water must explode in anger once in a while, or degrade them into useless shallow puddles, as in the case of Jack, when he had no directions, no confidence to build anything lasting, do anything physical, except to ride a piece of stock for eight seconds, and even then he wasn't any much good at it, the dumb ass missing.

With great fathers, the love in these boys would have found the right channels, and been the nourishment that lasted them for a life time. True, some fathers are also like mothers, inspiring love in their children, but those are great loving fathers, not these abusive horrible men. Sorry, mpj, there ain't nothing in the world that can make me feel any sympathy for the disgusting stud duck or the self-righteous hateful man who celebrated death. I wish they had never been born, and Ennis and Jack grew up with loving fathers, so their story could have a happy ending instead.

[myprivatejack]

No worries, mpj. I knew what you meant, but I just want to make sure it is clearly stated. It's easy sometimes for these subtle ironies to be lost in translation.

Oh,no,I wasn't worried,nor angry,even if maybe it seemed so ¡     I was just trying to explain,in an ironic way,how "grateful" we should be to these two men...Because,by means of not giving their children the love they needed,contributed to increase in them the need and the skills of giving and receiving love.

Good observation that the mothers are the counterparts/opposite of the fathers.   Ying and Yang.

Here,I meant how necessary had been for both boys someone who was the opposite of two fathers who only could teach their children to hate.In order not to be a copy of them,Ennis and Jack,or whoever,need clearly another teacher to learn the value of love and make it grow before hate,intolerance and repression.

Beautifully stated and exactly what I feel about the basis for the love between Ennis and Jack...their great need to be loved, valued, and the surprise at finding it fulfilled by someone unexpected.

Here, I respectfully disagree. As we said, the source of love in these cowboys came from their mothers. Without the horrible fathers, the boys would be free to soar, and love as well as needing to be loved. The fathers diminished the love in their sons, not enhanced them. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

This image came to mind as I struggle to explain how I see the situation. Love is like water. Mothers are sources of water in their children. Greater the mother's love, stronger and more powerful the currents that spring from the souls of the children. Fathers are like the channels that shape the flow of the water, directing them where to go, how to do useful work, or get wasted spilling over banks, draining uselessly into the swamps. The horrible fathers made their sons lives miserable, by either capping those powerful wells shut, as in the case of Ennis, so that the water must explode in anger once in a while, or degrade them into useless shallow puddles, as in the case of Jack, when he had no directions, no confidence to build anything lasting, do anything physical, except to ride a piece of stock for eight seconds, and even then he wasn't any much good at it, the dumb ass missing.

With great fathers, the love in these boys would have found the right channels, and been the nourishment that lasted them for a life time. True, some fathers are also like mothers, inspiring love in their children, but those are great loving fathers, not these abusive horrible men. Sorry, mpj, there ain't nothing in the world that can make me feel any sympathy for the disgusting stud duck or the self-righteous hateful man who celebrated death. I wish they had never been born, and Ennis and Jack grew up with loving fathers, so their story could have a happy ending instead.

You have exposed your theories as beautifully as always,Lance ¡    I really love the comparison you make with what love is and what kind of influence this lack of love had in each one of them.However,I think we are saying the same,but in different ways-and much better in your case,of course...-.I agree in that,with two loving fathers,the most similar to their mothers they could be,both boys had known how to "canalise" their emotions and the way of showing them.But I was referring to the boomerang effect -to call it somehow...-that having a father not very fond of showing love to their children can have in them in the middle-long term.
Sometimes,abusers are clearly sons of another abuser,and this is something proved enough;but in a more positive personality,not being a loved child takes you in the older age to look desperately for love and to be able to give and received it in a greater way than someone who has has two normal father and mother.Somehow,Ennis and Jack were two uprooted boys,and they were so "thanks" to their fathers,not to their mothers;their bestiality was what made them have a desperate need of feeling love and being valued for someone else,since specially OMT was never able to support his son in anyhing he did.
By the way,there's something in your post I think I must be angry about... You say:Sorry, mpj, there ain't nothing in the world that can make me feel any sympathy for the disgusting stud duck or the self-righteous hateful man who celebrated death. Oh,my ¡ You don't need to be sorry before me ¡ I'm not defending,nor I have never done it,these two specimen who confounded what being a man means with a simple excess of testosterone taken in the worst sense...Nor,of course,never in my !@#$ life have I felt any kind of sympathy for people like that,because my way of thinking,my ideology and my feelings are in the antipodes of all this.With all my respect.