Topic: was ennis gay ?

[lancecowboy]

okay, mpj. I think I understand what you are saying, that by depriving Ennis and Jack fatherly love, these men made the two cowboys even more hungry for male love. I don't disagree with your theory, since it is probably true in some cases. I don't know what would happen to Ennis and Jack if they had loving fathers, so the hypothetical comparison is beyond me.

Having said that, I still would prefer Ennis and Jack to have loving fathers than these two, no matter the impact on their yearning for male love. The reason is simple: the side-effects of their abusive ways are far worse than any "positive" impact they may have. No thank you.

I apologize if I misunderstood your "sympathies" for these two. As I said, sometimes it's not easier to understand over the net. Thank you for your patience and kind words.

[myprivatejack]

  

[myprivatejack]

okay, mpj. I think I understand what you are saying, that by depriving Ennis and Jack fatherly love, these men made the two cowboys even more hungry for male love. I don't disagree with your theory, since it is probably true in some cases. I don't know what would happen to Ennis and Jack if they had loving fathers, so the hypothetical comparison is beyond me.

Having said that, I still would prefer Ennis and Jack to have loving fathers than these two, no matter the impact on their yearning for male love. The reason is simple: the side-effects of their abusive ways are far worse than any "positive" impact they may have. No thank you.

I apologize if I misunderstood your "sympathies" for these two. As I said, sometimes it's not easier to understand over the net. Thank you for your patience and kind words.

However,I must clarify that I don't think that having two rough fathers made them specially look for male love,but simply for LOVE,in capital letters.But,as always,I should empathize two aspects;1rst.,I have always though that having an homophobic father,made Ennis feel a duality of attraction-repulsion about homosexuality that made him also "eat the forbidden fruit" as soon as he had the opportunity-I have said this many times before,so I better not repeat myself...-.And 2nd.,you're right in that the lack of fatherly love impelled both boys towards male love,maybe as a way of having other men's approval?...Surely it did,increased by the fact that they had to share a lot of things,a lot of confidences that led them to a great intimacy in all the senses.So,is in this concrete sense that I referred to be "grateful" to both fathers behaviour,because it somehow throw both boys in each other's arms,even if the way wasn't the most proper...

[lancecowboy]

However,I must clarify that I don't think that having two rough fathers made them specially look for male love,but simply for LOVE,in capital letters.But,as always,I should empathize two aspects;1rst.,I have always though that having an homophobic father,made Ennis feel a duality of attraction-repulsion about homosexuality that made him also "eat the forbidden fruit" as soon as he had the opportunity-I have said this many times before,so I better not repeat myself...-.And 2nd.,you're right in that the lack of fatherly love impelled both boys towards male love,maybe as a way of having other men's approval?...Surely it did,increased by the fact that they had to share a lot of things,a lot of confidences that led them to a great intimacy in all the senses.So,is in this concrete sense that I referred to be "grateful" to both fathers behaviour,because it somehow throw both boys in each other's arms,even if the way wasn't the most proper...

No, mpj. I was not saying that. I was trying to understand if YOU were saying that. As I wrote earlier, I don't agree with it, but what do I know about what makes people gay or yearn for love for that matter. It's all a mystery to me and that's why I am here.

[WildCatIsle]

Interesting  discussion MPJ & LC .

But where it's written that  a boy/man, girl/woman, cannot to love each to other?

Ennis and Jack are belated adolescent, before they meet, they are completely defined their sexuality. People don't change  their sexual desire.

The context - the situation - is must, in order to become a loving relation.

[myprivatejack]

No, mpj. I was not saying that. I was trying to understand if YOU were saying that. As I wrote earlier, I don't agree with it, but what do I know about what makes people gay or yearn for love for that matter. It's all a mystery to me and that's why I am here.

Anyhow,I said that you were right in that this was one of the possibilities,one of the consequences that a rough father could have in a child's pique.About any other misunderstanding,blame it on my poor English skills. However,I don't know,since human beings are very complicated,enough as not being able to put any label(one more time,the labels...)that can be proper for everybody in moral,mental and love matters.Even if I keep on declaring that their fathers lack of affection has a great impact in both Ennis and Jack-each one of them in their own way-,as great as their mother's affection,unluckily.

[myprivatejack]

Interesting  discussion MPJ & LC .

But where it's written that  a boy/man, girl/woman, cannot to love each to other?

Ennis and Jack are belated adolescent, before they meet, they are completely defined their sexuality. People don't change  their sexual desire.

The context - the situation - is must, in order to become a loving relation.

Thanks,WiC ¡ As a matter of fact,I love discussing (not arguing  ).Well,of course that it's written nowhere-or it shouldn't be-that two same-sex persons cannot love each other ¡;denying it would be the same than denying ourselves,cause many of us are in the same boat,let's say...But you will agree in that sometimes,even if someone has completely defined one's sexuality,can change one's sexual desire if find someone in a concrete context and situation,as you say.There're many stories of persons who couldn't have been defined as gays until a concrete moment of their lives by having met someone,in spite of themselves and their own beliefs until that very moment.But,as I have said in my former post,I think human physique is very complex,enough as scape to any predetermined reactions.

[lancecowboy]

No worries, mpj. Please don't  because there is no reason to be upset or feel frustrated. I enjoy our discussion, and in attempting to communicate, I learn more than if I just take for granted what I thought on my own.

I understand what you are proposing, both in irony, and in an attempt to take a bad situation and give it a good aspect. However, I really don't see anything of redeeming value in those two old bullies.

You say that their withholding their affection for their son helped to increase the son's need for love. I don't agree nor disagree with that proposition because, as I said, I am not sure the mechanism for a person's yearning for love operates in exactly that way. There are enough examples of people growing up deprived of parental affection which turn out extremely badly, antisocial and psychopathic even. My proposal is only that the mothers alone have been instrumental in the emotional development of our cowboys. Without their mothers, Ennis would not be Ennis, but some homophobic bully like his Pa, and Jack would not be Jack, but some piss-ant going through life, dejected, rejected, doing nothing but wandering around with his dreams amounting to nothing.

It is never easy to look at hypothetical situations, and there is no definitive answers. If your proposal fills some space for you, by all means continue to think that. We can agree to disagree without any hard feelings. The love of the mothers in Ennis and Jack certainly fill some space for me, so I will continue to think that for myself, without needing validation or convincing others. I'm just sharing my thoughts, thinking out loud, so to speak.

 

[myprivatejack]

Oh,no,Lance ¡  I don't feel upset nor frustrated;in any case,the only subject that really upsets and frustrates me is not being able to speak English properly ¡  So,don't worry in this sense,please...I also love to discuss because it obliges you to think things over and,as a consequence,learn a lot for other person's reasons and opinions,because nobody is absolutely right and from two different opinions a third one can be born.
Yes,you're right again-and I also put this example before-in that some persons deprived of affection turn out antisocial ones;but there're also some others who like and try to give the others all the love they couldn't have when children.Who knows who has the "correct" reaction,then? All of us,each one of us,are and have a whole world inside us,and react,cry,laugh,love and LIVE according to our circumstances;but also according to everything what forms our selves,by the way we have lived and the influences we have had...Of course ¡ I subscribe every single word with what you describe how our boys lives had been without their mothers love counterpart: that's for sure,and I have never denied it,because then the balance between affection and roughness had been clearly inclined towards the second...
No,it's never easy to look at hypothetical situations,and nor is to look at real ones,because of this complexity.But for me,it's not a question of keep on thinking like that or this other way,it's not a question of getting obstined in one's positions;we're discussing the many interpretations about the reasons for Ennis being gay or not or the influence of love in persons.That's enough and very important for me.

[WildCatIsle]

But you will agree in that sometimes,even if someone has completely defined one's sexuality,can change one's sexual desire if find someone in a concrete context and situation,as you say.There're many stories of persons who couldn't have been defined as gays until a concrete moment of their lives by having met someone,in spite of themselves and their own beliefs until that very moment.But,as I have said in my former post,I think human physique is very complex,enough as scape to any predetermined reactions.

Nevertheless MPJ , I don't mean that; when I say "Ennis and Jack are belated adolescent, before they meet, they are completely defined their sexuality”  I talk about both already they are homosexuals. Sexual identity development is during adolescence, sexual desire beginning becomes adolescence to the 11-12, y.o. To that age,  character, knows towards where desire goes his.

When I speak of the context, simply I talk about a condition that favors the encounter, the feeling. If Ennis or Jack were not homoxesuals, it had never been able to happen.

I don’t agree, people don’t change sexual identity; anybody cannot discover to 19 or 25 y.o what has a diverse sexual identity which it felt.

Of course, many people think  discover his/ her sexual identity being adult; caused by negation, repression or how anyone by means. Human physique is complex, yes, but often it clouds . Sexual identity never change, IMHO.

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to this old thread and although I think it has been said before,I have been thinking in the certain contradiction about Ennis sexual and,almost,social behaviour.He was the one who felt more down in the moment of their leaving the mountain,because he knew for sure they weren't going to see each other any more in their "normal" lives.He was the one who began again their relationship as in their BBM times,not only by the fact of not denying Jack's wishes,but by giving himself completely even before the other man could give any step forwards.He was the one who felt more jealous about Jack's other relationship with men,even if these men were prostitutes and a mere sexual relief,in a,I opine,rather gay reaction.In this sense,he was the one who felt absolutely easy when he knew Jack has an affair with a woman,and not only because he knew his lover couldn't love the other gender,but also for himself,even if he wasn't able to admit it(the most "queer" Jack was,the most he was too ¡).He was,in sum,who maintained a behaviour that someone could easily identify with what gay people was obliged to have in those times; some sexual meetings"once in a while" with no compromise at all(being this non compromise due to fear or whatever).
However,he was denying all this somehow during all his life and,at the same,denying himself,denying his feelings...He was "gay" enough for their times-and please,may everybody forgive me;it's not my intention offend anybody,but only my poor English skills   ) as to believe that it was better f@#ng a man,the mere sexual intercourse than loving a man,what was impossible according to his point of view.Loving someone of his own sex was something that he saw like an step forward to queerness,something deeper that could cause a shock in his mind and soul-and maybe,body -.I don't know if this makes any sense,but,anyhow,is one of the many Ennis contradictions and inner anguishes; a good study example for any psychologist ¡.JMHO.

[haveacrush]

who defines sexuality ? who defines what is gay and what is not ? who defines what is normal and abnormal ? we have invented jargons and rules for defining "normal" - society, social upbringing (ennis having a special upbrining bcz he has seen the dead "gay" men in his childhood) teaches us what is normal and what is not - it teaches one to be prejudiced. it is impossible to say if there were no such "teacings" how would one's sexual orientation really be ? love is a very higher order word which defies sexuality, let alone jargons like gay or straight. ennis was in love ! finished

[WildCatIsle]

who defines sexuality ? who defines what is gay and what is not ? who defines what is normal and abnormal ? we have invented jargons and rules for defining "normal" - society, social upbringing (ennis having a special upbrining bcz he has seen the dead "gay" men in his childhood) teaches us what is normal and what is not - it teaches one to be prejudiced. it is impossible to say if there were no such "teacings" how would one's sexual orientation really be ? love is a very higher order word which defies sexuality, let alone jargons like gay or straight. ennis was in love ! finished

I'm sorry, with such relativism, does cann't talk about anything

[myprivatejack]

I'm also against levels,haveacrush,and much more when we are talking about human reactions and feelings; but we must define and analyse Ennis behaviour calling things in a determinate definition,to make them understand in the best way...I'd say that Ennis was gay with Jack because he was happy with him,he loved and wanted him and he couldn't imagine his life without him,another man.As someone said very well much before,Ennis was "Jacksexual".And I think that this is what should matter the most for everybody,beyond all kind of level,definitions and cliches.

[perarduaadastra]

Ennis was not gay, Jack was not gay,there is no such thing as gay, just antigays make it all up.