Author Topic: was ennis gay ? (Read 651005 times)

jack twist · « **on:** Jan 25, 2006, 06:58 PM »

was ennis gay any thought's??

" I really get the impression Ennis wasn't gay. In fact I don't recall anywhere in the movie where Ennis seems at all attracted to any other man other than Jack. Did I miss something in the movie that suggests Ennis had feelings for any other man? I really think Ennis fell in love and it just happened to be with a man. I'd equate Ennis' love to that of a "man crush" that all heterosexual men experience.

Jack on the other hand was definitely gay. What Jack offered Ennis was a form to express that love he felt.

About Jack: I also walked away from this movie a bit ticked off at Jack. He's the one who initiated the physical part of their relationship. Then when they depart he goes and looks Ennis up 4 years later knowing that Ennis would still have the same feelings. He continues to pressure the guy to create something more but later we find out Jack has been messing around with other men. Jack needed to let it go and move on. I honestly felt in the end that Jacks death was part of his own doing. Jack it was suggested, was a very promiscuous man and ended up suffering a horrible fate for that promiscuity. It all was so very sad.

I know the romantic in all of us wants so much for this movie to mean so many different things. I sorta snicker at how some will take certain scenes and analyze them in a profound way when I doubt seriously if the writer really gave it that much depth.

The story line is raw and obvious. Two strangers meet. One open to expressing physical love to someone of the same sex. The other desperate for that type of love and takes the plunge only to have it haunt him for the rest of his life. The final analysis. Total misery for both characters. It's a very sad story.

One day perhaps there will be a movie about two men who simply fall in love and in the end it's a beautiful walk off into the sunset."

ethan · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 07:20 PM »

Hello jack twist (it makes me feel great just to say this),

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the first post. I edited it and copied the one from the link in the post for easier discussion. I hope you don't mind. As you wander around in the forum, you may find many questions which a lot of us have in mind.

Below is a topic that discuss Jack's sexual orientation and some of the posts may help you answer the question you have.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=473.0

Again welcome.

jack twist · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 07:58 PM »

Hi Ethan thanks for the warm welcome, I'ts australia day Public holiday

thanks for the link there's so many views on the film from different ppl , thats what makes it so good btw in the tent scene when ennis came in from the cold who initiated it first did ennis put his arm over jack?

ethan · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 09:53 PM »

Quote from: jack twist on Jan 25, 2006, 07:58 PM

Hi Ethan thanks for the warm welcome, I'ts australia day Public holiday thanks for the link there's so many views on the film from different ppl , thats what makes it so good btw in the tent scene when ennis came in from the cold who initiated it first did ennis put his arm over jack?

My pleasure. Jack initiated and took Ennis's hand.

Here is another topic about Ennis. http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=747.0

jeffjoe · « **Reply #4 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 12:22 AM »

Maybe Ennis was gay from the beggining but he don't know, well just look the way he fall in love with Jack, he only need somethig to arouse the real Ennis

welshwitch · « **Reply #5 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 06:47 AM »

As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?

For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?

NoReins · « **Reply #6 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 07:08 AM »

Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

tpe · « **Reply #7 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 07:16 AM »

Thanks Ethan for providing links to the related topics. Unless I did not check carefully that you have also referenced this in the above posts, I would like to provide the link to the more general discussion of Ennis's and Jack's sexuality:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e534b1305cb097aaf3534de74d267b20&topic=1340.0

As has been our policy from the very beginning, we draw a distinction between the characters and the actors themselves. A discussion of the characters' sexuality in no way translates (and should never translate) into a discussion on the sexuality of the actors who portrayed them.

stacp · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 08:17 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 06:47 AM

As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?

For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?

I'm going to say that Ennis was at least bisexual. Even after Jack was physically absent from his life, he fantasized about him and "wrang it out" 100 times thinking about Jack. Yes, we didn't see Ennis looking or thinking about other men, but Ennis was a much more faithful guy than Jack (okay, maybe not by Alma). Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer. Just thinking out loud.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #9 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 10:40 AM »

At the back of the Brokeback Mountain story to screenplay book there is article "Getting Movied" written by BBM author Annie Proulx. Proulx says she wrote the story of an "iill-iinformed, confused, not-sure-of-what-he-was-feelikng yourh growing up in homophobic rural Wyoming." Just from what Proulx writes in the article I think her intention was to show that both Ennis and Jack were gay, although Ennis was also homophobic.

welshwitch · « **Reply #10 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 10:55 AM »

Good point, stacp. Ennis wouldn't have fantasies about other men because that would be a "queer" thing to do and he isn't queer in his own mind. I think too he's a faithful sort of guy - he was engaged to Alma before he met Jack and stays with her despite everything - she's the one who leaves him. And he's faithful to Jack in the sense that he's never involved with another man, and doesn't apparently get far with Cassie.

frances · « **Reply #11 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 01:29 PM »

Quote from: stacp on Jul 21, 2006, 08:17 AM

Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer.

I see it the same way. But later remarks that Ennis makes in the story, including the "Do you ever think people know?" or "You're the reason I'm this way" , strongly suggest that Ennis has come to see himself as homosexual (or at least as a man attracted to another man), however he may hate to think of himself this way .

christie wood · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 04:36 PM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 21, 2006, 07:08 AM

Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it.

(was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 04:39 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Jul 21, 2006, 04:36 PM

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 21, 2006, 07:08 AM
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.

Annie Proulx in an article she wrote "Gettiing Movied" which is at the back of teh BBM story to screenplay book says both Jack and Ennis are gay. Ennis is also homophobic.

tpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 04:43 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Jul 21, 2006, 04:36 PM

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 21, 2006, 07:08 AM
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.

christie and NoReins, you are right, I believe, when you refer to Heath's comment.

I know we are treading on ground that brings out strong reactions here, but I do agree that this is what Proulx had meant when she referred to BBM as a study of homophobia. It's the tragedy of Ennis coming to grips with himself and his love. Both are conflicted. Both are deep.

christie wood · « **Reply #15 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 04:54 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 21, 2006, 04:43 PM

Quote from: christie wood on Jul 21, 2006, 04:36 PM
Quote from: NoReins on Jul 21, 2006, 07:08 AM
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.

christie and NoReins, you are right, I believe, when you refer to Heath's comment.

I know we are treading on ground that brings out strong reactions here, but I do agree that this is what Proulx had meant when she referred to BBM as a study of homophobia. It's the tragedy of Ennis coming to grips with himself and his love. Both are conflicted. Both are deep.

Tpe, you are right on two counts in your reply. Firstly, it is the tragedy of Ennis that cuts so deep with us all I think. He is in constant conflict with himself and who he has fallen in love with. He wants to fight it all the time. He cannot just given in to his emotions and deepest desires. That would be admitting he was gay, and he wasnt able to do that.

Secondly, although I know that this kind of discussion can bring out strong reactions, I would like to think that we can debate it in an open and intelligent way that does not undermine the seriousness of the subject or the emotional effect that this film has had on many people.

tpe · « **Reply #16 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 05:06 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Jul 21, 2006, 04:54 PM

Secondly, although I know that this kind of discussion can bring out strong reactions, I would like to think that we can debate it in an open and intelligent way that does not undermine the seriousness of the subject or the emotional effect that this film has had on many people.

THis is true. This is what the forum is about. Thanks.

dalemidex · « **Reply #17 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 09:25 PM »

Quote from: stacp on Jul 21, 2006, 08:17 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 06:47 AM
As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?

For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?

I'm going to say that Ennis was at least bisexual. Even after Jack was physically absent from his life, he fantasized about him and "wrang it out" 100 times thinking about Jack. Yes, we didn't see Ennis looking or thinking about other men, but Ennis was a much more faithful guy than Jack (okay, maybe not by Alma). Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer. Just thinking out loud.

I realize I'm hours late in posting this me-too comment of agreement, but your line of thinking on this is perfection. I've always had the gut feeling that Ennis was gay, but it was hard to make a few of the pieces fit. You did something I've tried to do for months!

chameau · « **Reply #18 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 10:18 PM »

Ennis was gay, he fighted against it all his life because his dad traumatized him when he was a boy (the dead Earl scene). A few hints... the reunion kiss scene, he initiated the kiss and what a kiss it was.

The first ''fishing trip'', the whole scene on the mountain, Jack caressing his ear and cheek at the end of the scene... Ennis doesn't push him back.

The flashback scene from their last encounter, once again he is the initiator tought this scene is maybe an intimate moment but nothing sexual, he was just happy to held his lover (and was obviously in love).

The two shirts scenes, the first one when he finds the shirts... $:-\\$ :\'( The last scene, still with the shirts... Jack I swear... :\'( :\'( :\'(

What was it? I swear I loved you, I swear I regret... I don't want to go off topic but IMO Ennis was gay, he was just the victim of his epoch, life experience and education. I know it's sad

welshwitch · « **Reply #19 on:** Jul 22, 2006, 05:44 AM »

I think Ennis was less gay than Jacksexual. He didn't fantasize about men, just about Jack, and din't go looking for other men. He tried to convince himself ( and Jack, in the motel scene) that he was at least interested in women in general, not just Alma.

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #20 on:** Jul 22, 2006, 10:47 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 22, 2006, 05:44 AM

I think Ennis was less gay than Jacksexual. He didn't fantasize about men, just about Jack, and din't go looking for other men. He tried to convince himself ( and Jack, in the motel scene) that he was at least interested in women in general, not just Alma.

I'm not so sure he was less gay than Jack. In the tent he did the penetration, as well as in the motel. True Jack did iniate it in the tent but Ennis, finished it in grand style. In the motel he had just given Jack a thorough jouncing, and was laying back contented in Jack's arms. Both of them were stuck in marriages entered in to for social convention not out deep commitment to the women in their lives. Ennis pretty much summed up at the motel.

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #21 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 10:37 PM »

Is the Pope Catholic?

Do I have a cupboard full of skin care products?

Yup, he was gay alright. He might have been in denial, but he was gay.

edgar · « **Reply #22 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 12:49 AM »

Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.

Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.

Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.

Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.

Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."

christie wood · « **Reply #23 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 02:25 AM »

Quote from: edgar on Jul 25, 2006, 12:49 AM

Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.

Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.

Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.

Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.

Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."

Good point Edgar, and I have to agree with you. Sexuality is not always clear cut. It's an interesting subject though.

It's a little crass to say that Jack was "more gay" than Ennis, but if we are comparing them on the 1-10 scale, then Jack would be closer to 10 than Ennis, but only because Ennis hadnt been with anyone else. Who's to say if Ennis had met another man, he would have realised what he was and accepted it more.

God what am I saying. Ennis with another man? The thought brings tears to my eyes! :\'( I'm straying way off in to the realms of unchartered territory, and I don't like it!

Ennis and Jack = together forever. There, that's more like it!

FulOfSadness · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 03:25 AM »

Yeah, i think Ennis was gay, even before he was with Jack, maybe just too shy to admit it.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 07:01 AM »

Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?

For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.

welshwitch · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 10:48 AM »

How can he be gay when he's so bad-tempere and miserable?

Couldn't resist.

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 10:57 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 25, 2006, 10:48 AM

How can he be gay when he's so bad-tempere and miserable?

Couldn't resist.

WW - I know many ill-tempered, vicious old queens, who at one time were ill-tempered, miserable young men.

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 11:15 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 25, 2006, 07:01 AM

Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?

For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.

TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story. I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).

My heart aches for Ennis :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 25, 2006, 11:26 AM »

Quote from: jesseanne21 on Jul 25, 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 25, 2006, 07:01 AM
Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?

For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.

TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story. I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).

My heart aches for Ennis :\'(

Yes, I agree. The conflict is at the heart of the story.