Topic: was ennis gay ?

[tpe]

Let's see, how do I see Ennis?  As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression.  So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay.  Or, I should say, both straight and gay.  Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart.  Enter Jack...  (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)

kathy

The answer is less important than the process of seeking out an answer.  Thanks kathy.

To add to the confusion are the enigmatic statements "You know I ain't queer" and "Me neither".  To me, there is a subtle distinction between "queerness" and "gayness" in the context of that scene...

Oh jeez, thanks a lot, tpe -- you're going to get me going again, and I was trying to leave this thread for now. 

I totally agree with you, though, about the process of seeking the answer -- the journey rather than the destination.

As to "gay" and "queer," I just think the term gay wasn't used then, simple as that.  Queer was the term used so that's what they said.  As to saying they were not queer, that is discussed at length on another thread is it not?

kathy

Yes indeed, this has been discussed.  I mentioned it here just in case it comes up later in a different context to create more havoc.    Thanks kathy.

[lamusica]

I agree with you, tpe, about labels.  They are useful to some degree.  Also, I agree that it is interesting, and maybe even valuable, to discuss Ennis' and Jack's sexuality.  However, what I am saying is that, in the end, the important thing is that they loved one another -- not that they were hetero-homo-or bi-sexual.
    When I said Ennis was consistent throughout the story, I meant that he always has denied his own sexuality.  He never vacillates.  Even when he's with Jack, he does not feel that he is OK -- He feels as if he is doing something wrong.  He consistently feels that way.  His father did a number on him, and, no matter what he faces in the future, he cannot forget his father's judgement about "queers".  He will always feel that he is doing something wrong when he loves Jack.  That is a big shame, but no one can change Ennis at this point. All any of us can do is hope the newer generation grows up without the hang ups of the past -- that kids today can be more free and accepting of themselves and others.

[tpe]

I agree with you, tpe, about labels.  They are useful to some degree.  Also, I agree that it is interesting, and maybe even valuable, to discuss Ennis' and Jack's sexuality.  However, what I am saying is that, in the end, the important thing is that they loved one another -- not that they were hetero-homo-or bi-sexual.
    When I said Ennis was consistent throughout the story, I meant that he always has denied his own sexuality.  He never vacillates.  Even when he's with Jack, he does not feel that he is OK -- He feels as if he is doing something wrong.  He consistently feels that way.  His father did a number on him, and, no matter what he faces in the future, he cannot forget his father's judgement about "queers".  He will always feel that he is doing something wrong when he loves Jack.  That is a big shame, but no one can change Ennis at this point. All any of us can do is hope the newer generation grows up without the hang ups of the past -- that kids today can be more free and accepting of themselves and others.

Yes.  In the end, it is who you love that defines you, independent of gender or sexual orientation.

As for the newer generation, we can only hope.  But old prejudices die hard, no?  Some just become more subtle.  They may be replacing an open prejudice with a more nuanced one.  Let us hope that this is not the case.

[monicita]

Kathy,
I was very touched by both your last posts. Thank you! I am so with you on the bisexuality issue. And I do hope people will come to be more accepting of the grey areas. It ties in neatly with another of my concerns: Bisexuality and transsexuality don't tie in very well with the  wish to define people's sexuality, gender, whatever biologically, to say: This is how I (or you) have been from  birth and will always remain. I think this is one of the reasons why people want to press others (and themselves) into categories. It feels safer to have something that has clear boundaries. And let's face it: It IS unfair that heterosexuals have it so much easier here.

I also find the question interesting whether it is more of a challenge to straight men for Ennis to be gay or straight. My experiences in Mexico have taught me that everything is ok as long as gay people are clearly defined as "sissies". These sissies are never oneself. One can always point a finger at them and let them exist (barely) in their ghetto. And even gay men do that! So I think both is a challenge: Ennis straight: Would mean, it can happen to anybody, even to me - the macho guy. Ennis gay: would mean - you can't even spot if a guy is gay or not, he looks just like one of us macho guys, so how do I show I'm not one of them?

monicita

[Patriot1]

It's so complicated, try to understand the heart of a lonely man, maybe he was not, or maybe he just want to be gay but deny this feeling because his world will be cruel with him...   

And there you have hit on the true tragedy JoeJeff. To deny who and what you are because of social prejudice.  To go through life as some actor on a stage hoping to get the approval of the audience, or at least not be rejected by it.  Too sad, way too sad.

[CrimsonSky]

I'm replying to this post a second time.  You've made me think of something else on this subject.  First of all, of course, defining anything depends on the terms of the person doing the defining.  I think that defining Ennis as gay or straight would have even more significance to one particular group:  straight men.  I'll just say this about straight men, not women, because generally speaking, straight women are more accepting of gay men than straight men are.  I know that's a big generalization and isn't always true by any means, but for straight (or any) women, gay men can be the best of both worlds -- they're not a physical threat, as in rape, which straight men are; and we can be friends without the bothersome aspects of sexual tension and all that leads to.  It's a beautiful thing for Mars and Venus to be friends, more rare than same-sex friends.  Kind of the opposite of being gay. 

Anyway, back to straight men, who are, after all, "society."  I want this movie to have a big impact on how society sees gay men.  So, to the "typical" straight man (if there is such a thing) (and I don't think "typical" would apply to any of our straight men here on this forum)...to the typical straight man, is the story of Ennis and Jack more powerful and potentially life-changing to a straight man if Ennis is straight or if he's gay?  You'd think the answer would be the obvious one:  if Ennis is straight.  But on the other hand, let's say Ennis is gay -- straight men could relate to Ennis, see a man something like themselves, and that such a man can find his gayness and live it.  If he doesn't repress it, that is, to his own and everyone else's detriment.  If "society," i.e., said straight male viewers, doesn't kill him phyically or kill his spirit.

Oh shoot, it's just too complex.  I'm sorry -- I say too many words, make too many statements with too many qualifiers and don't really come to any conclusions.  I think we might all know the answers when we die.  But I love delving into the complexities of Ennis and Jack, and talking about how they affect our own lives.  And I know this isn't my therapy group so quit your yammerin' already.

kathy

Kathy, don't apologise, I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this thread, I found them really interesting and thought-provoking
And I don't think any of us (not just here, but in the world in general) are likely to ever come to any definite conclusions on this subject, like you say it's so complex. Personally, I think the easiest way of looking at it is that we're all potentially bi-sexual, but it's mostly down to circumstance who our sexual partners are, whatever sex they might be. If Ennis had never met Jack, he probably would never have had any kind of experience with men, and the thought he might be gay would probably have never even crossed his mind.If he had met Jack,but hadn't already been engaged to Alma, he might never have had any relationships with women, and just saved himself for Jack. Jack, on the other hand, would have had plenty of sex/relationships with men, but might very well still have married Lureen (or some other woman), and so could be defined as bi-sexual.
Up until recently,I would've said that Jack was the more obviously gay one out of Ennis and Jack, but watching the scene with Jack and Lureen in the car the other night, it occured to me that Jack, for all his awkwardness with Lureen, does seem to be having more fun than Ennis ever seems to with either Alma or Cassie. I feel that Ennis had sex with women because he felt he had to, rather than because he wanted to, and only really wanted to have sex with Jack,so Jack being a man, that would make Ennis gay. Jack seems to be only attracted to men, when he's the one making the moves, but when Lureen makes a move on him, even though he knows deep down it's not what he wants, he seems very much open to the possibility he might enjoy it, so that would make him at least bi-curious    The "fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going" line (which always turns me into a drooling wreck) sums up the whole thing for me,just substitute "fast or slow" for "male or female", if you like the direction someone's going, surely that's all that matters      

[lamusica]

The reason I'm quite sure attitudes will be a bit better among the present high-school age generation is what I have observed as a high school teachcer.  I find the kids to be much more accepting of all kinds of differences.  Of course, I realize this isn't ALL the kids.  A lot has to do with who is raising them.  In general, though, I feel there is more acceptance of people of other races and other sexual orientation.
    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

I agree with you, tpe, about labels.  They are useful to some degree.  Also, I agree that it is interesting, and maybe even valuable, to discuss Ennis' and Jack's sexuality.  However, what I am saying is that, in the end, the important thing is that they loved one another -- not that they were hetero-homo-or bi-sexual.
    When I said Ennis was consistent throughout the story, I meant that he always has denied his own sexuality.  He never vacillates.  Even when he's with Jack, he does not feel that he is OK -- He feels as if he is doing something wrong.  He consistently feels that way.  His father did a number on him, and, no matter what he faces in the future, he cannot forget his father's judgement about "queers".  He will always feel that he is doing something wrong when he loves Jack.  That is a big shame, but no one can change Ennis at this point. All any of us can do is hope the newer generation grows up without the hang ups of the past -- that kids today can be more free and accepting of themselves and others.

Yes.  In the end, it is who you love that defines you, independent of gender or sexual orientation.

As for the newer generation, we can only hope.  But old prejudices die hard, no?  Some just become more subtle.  They may be replacing an open prejudice with a more nuanced one.  Let us hope that this is not the case.

[gimmejack]

The reason I'm quite sure attitudes will be a bit better among the present high-school age generation is what I have observed as a high school teachcer.  I find the kids to be much more accepting of all kinds of differences.  Of course, I realize this isn't ALL the kids.  A lot has to do with who is raising them.  In general, though, I feel there is more acceptance of people of other races and other sexual orientation.
    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

Jack's fear first and foremost appears to be running Ennis off.  Secondly, the 60's and the places they were both raised.  Jack did not appear to be overly concerned about Jimbo and Randall knowing.

He just got that sense that he had to be subtle with Ennis and he was most likely entirely correct in walking on eggshells with his sexuality around him.  It seemed to me almost a camraderie type thing also, where they were both in the same boat..."one shot deal". 

Just my 2 cents

[welshwitch]

Jack is so much more os a sensualist in every way than Ennis - he's into creature comforts and enjoyment. In which case I reckon he's prepard to take wha comes along - Lureen offers it on a plate and he's not going to say no. Doesn't mean it's love, of that he doesn't love Ennis. Ennis, on the other hand, will settle for beans literally and metaphorically - I think he enjoys sex with Jack at least partly because Jack makes it enjoyable and Alma apparently doesn't. And he doesn't see himself as gay, or doesn't want to.

[tpe]

    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

Jack's sexuality is part of the discussion of the thread I referenced at the beginning of this thread (the one dealing with whether they were gay, bisexual, or human).  Or you or anyone interested can start a separate thread dealing exclusively with Jack's sexuality (if it does not already exist -- as is the case, to my knowledge).

To specify my personal stance on this issue, I believe that both were intrinsically gay.  I base this purely in the context of writings and interviews by Gyllenhaal, Ang Lee, the screenwriters, and Proulx.  These writings and interviews can certainly be interpreted in a different light, but I think there is enough reason to think that they lend support to my stance, as discussed earlier in the posts involving Christie and NoReins.  For those who wish to see things otherwise, there is certainly room for alternative interpretations, as the characters and the story now live lives of their own -- subjected to scrutiny and analysis not originally anticipated by the author.  It is good that this is so.

To address the point on Jack, earlier discussions alluded to point to either a fear of Jack alienating Ennis (if he openly admitted to be gay or bisexual), or that the concept of "queerness" is distinct from our own concept of "gayness" (a concept that they were probably unfamiliar with in 1963).  This distinction has been discussed in earlier threads.  To discuss Jack's sexuality exclusively, I would recommend that we either append the discusssion to older threads that touch on this subject, or open a new thread. 

[monicita]

tpe, I'm all for it: Let's open a new thread!

monicita

[tpe]

tpe, I'm all for it: Let's open a new thread!

monicita

OOT: Hello monicita.    Would you want to create the thread?  If not, let me know and I shall do it.

[KillRoy1972]

Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?

My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)

Thats is what I think...

Ennis told Jack 'you made me this way'

Not meaning he turned gay, but the trouble he was/is in for beeing a homophobic gay man in love...

[tpe]

...he was/is in for beeing a homophobic gay man in love...

There is a dark, complex poetry to this phrase.

[ksxks]

Kathy,
I was very touched by both your last posts. Thank you! I am so with you on the bisexuality issue. And I do hope people will come to be more accepting of the grey areas. It ties in neatly with another of my concerns: Bisexuality and transsexuality don't tie in very well with the  wish to define people's sexuality, gender, whatever biologically, to say: This is how I (or you) have been from  birth and will always remain. I think this is one of the reasons why people want to press others (and themselves) into categories. It feels safer to have something that has clear boundaries. And let's face it: It IS unfair that heterosexuals have it so much easier here.

I also find the question interesting whether it is more of a challenge to straight men for Ennis to be gay or straight. My experiences in Mexico have taught me that everything is ok as long as gay people are clearly defined as "sissies". These sissies are never oneself. One can always point a finger at them and let them exist (barely) in their ghetto. And even gay men do that! So I think both is a challenge: Ennis straight: Would mean, it can happen to anybody, even to me - the macho guy. Ennis gay: would mean - you can't even spot if a guy is gay or not, he looks just like one of us macho guys, so how do I show I'm not one of them?

monicita

Quite fascinating, monicita.  We on this forum discussing Ennis's and Jack's sexuality is one thing, but the point of the story and movie, homophobic society, needs to be addressed by that homophobic society, not by us.  Your example of Mexican society is fascinating.  As long as everyone is in their place and you can tell from the outside (which would also include wimen as virgin, mother or whore) which they are, then people are comfortable.  Well, I think making people uncomfortable is a good thing, making them question everything, and in this case, sit with someone else and look them in the eye and see if they can understand, and if they can't move along.

Anyway, you said it more clearly than I, about what Ennis being gay or straight might mean to straight men.  Thanks.

More later, undoubtedly.   

kathy

[ksxks]

Kathy, don't apologise, I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this thread, I found them really interesting and thought-provoking
And I don't think any of us (not just here, but in the world in general) are likely to ever come to any definite conclusions on this subject, like you say it's so complex. Personally, I think the easiest way of looking at it is that we're all potentially bi-sexual, but it's mostly down to circumstance who our sexual partners are, whatever sex they might be. If Ennis had never met Jack, he probably would never have had any kind of experience with men, and the thought he might be gay would probably have never even crossed his mind.If he had met Jack,but hadn't already been engaged to Alma, he might never have had any relationships with women, and just saved himself for Jack. Jack, on the other hand, would have had plenty of sex/relationships with men, but might very well still have married Lureen (or some other woman), and so could be defined as bi-sexual.
Up until recently,I would've said that Jack was the more obviously gay one out of Ennis and Jack, but watching the scene with Jack and Lureen in the car the other night, it occured to me that Jack, for all his awkwardness with Lureen, does seem to be having more fun than Ennis ever seems to with either Alma or Cassie. I feel that Ennis had sex with women because he felt he had to, rather than because he wanted to, and only really wanted to have sex with Jack,so Jack being a man, that would make Ennis gay. Jack seems to be only attracted to men, when he's the one making the moves, but when Lureen makes a move on him, even though he knows deep down it's not what he wants, he seems very much open to the possibility he might enjoy it, so that would make him at least bi-curious    The "fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going" line (which always turns me into a drooling wreck) sums up the whole thing for me,just substitute "fast or slow" for "male or female", if you like the direction someone's going, surely that's all that matters      

CrimsonSky:  Well said.  Jack wasn't necessarily just "more gay" than Ennis, he was more open and fun-loving and wanting experience and not afraid of life and all of it.  So of course he would have no problem with following his curiosity.  (And the marriage apparently happened because Lureen got pregnant, right?)

Anyway, another point I wanted to say is it just doesn't always have to do with sex.  Sometimes I wish there were another set of words than "heterosexual," "homosexual," "bisexual."  It's not just sex, it's emotional, it's love, it's friendship, it's comfort, it's fun, it's who you prefer to partner your life with, and sex is just part of that.

I like both women and men, if they're gay or if they're cool with gay.  But I'm actually more a commune type.  I wouldn't mind a three-or-more-some.  I'm not looking for the ONE person to be with, though I wouldn't turn that down.  Mix and match is okay with me.  But I'm a hippie utopianist; and the reality is, a situation I would like probably wouldn't happen in reality -- so I live alone and have friends of all persuasions but have sex with none of them.

(Not doing nothin' to scare the horses!  That was hilarious, ww!)

I'm almost tempted to delete the above -- a bit too revealing -- but we are after all talking about sexuality here, and not just Ennis's and Jack's.  In point of fact, I think I'm a little Ennis because of past experiences that made me not trust people, not trust getting too close...  That isn't the same as Ennis's problem specifically, but still, it has to do with past experiences putting fear where there should be openness.

I won't delete, though, because if anything I say makes some other person think of something new or makes someone else feel they're not alone, then good...

Help!  Get me out of here!   

kathy

[tpe]

kathy, I thank you for sharing this.  You need not delete it.  We all reveal a bit of ourselves if only to connect.   What you have "flung" out here out will catch somewhere, rest assured.

[ksxks]

kathy, I thank you for sharing this.  You need not delete it.  We all reveal a bit of ourselves if only to connect.   What you have "flung" out here out will catch somewhere, rest assured.

Thank you, tpe.  I do see a lot of us being very revealing here -- and that's sure better than not revealing, better than being closed...

kathy

[monicita]

tpe, I'm all for it: Let's open a new thread!

monicita

OOT: Hello monicita.    Would you want to create the thread?  If not, let me know and I shall do it.

Ok, I'll do it, tpe! Hope it works, I'm such a dork when the technical side of things is concerned...

monicita

[monicita]

Hey Kathy,

great you're on this thread! I'm so happy I'm not the only one with that kind of background (hippie utopianist with all kinds of sexual persuasions and experiences and those hardly as monogamous as most people's)  There is one thing in your last post where I beg to differ, however: You say that homophobia is the responsibility of a homophobic society and not our's. Well, I think we are part of that society and we are also, in a way, part of homophobia. It is similar to the way people point at others and say "they are racists and they have to change that". But being racist is not something one either is totally or not at all: There are always degrees of racist thought in everybody. And I have caught myself at thoughts that have some racist content (even if it is "positive" racism, like thinking that black people are better at dancing - just a random example). Same thing with homophobia: On this forum there have been many people saying, for example, that they feel uncomfortable with the "queeny" way of being gay: the crossdressing, wristflapping, transsexual way of being gay. I personally love that a lot, but I have so many gay friends who feel uncomfortable about it, who need to make it very clear that they are a very different sort of gay man, a real man. I'm not saying that is wrong in any way, but I am saying that this is a product of homophobic society which makes it hard for anybody to identify with the "sissy" image, gay  or not. Where am I heading? I want to appeal to all of us, not to think that we are on an island outside society here, where no homophobic thought will ever occur. Because I have an interest in changing the homophobic status quo. And that is only possible if we see ourselves as part of what is happening out there. Okay, nuff preaching  In case it should have sounded overcritical:  all, and I'm German, they love to criticize (another stereotype...) ^^) And I know this is 

monicita

[ksxks]

Hey Kathy,

great you're on this thread! I'm so happy I'm not the only one with that kind of background (hippie utopianist with all kinds of sexual persuasions and experiences and those hardly as monogamous as most people's)  There is one thing in your last post where I beg to differ, however: You say that homophobia is the responsibility of a homophobic society and not our's. Well, I think we are part of that society and we are also, in a way, part of homophobia. It is similar to the way people point at others and say "they are racists and they have to change that". But being racist is not something one either is totally or not at all: There are always degrees of racist thought in everybody. And I have caught myself at thoughts that have some racist content (even if it is "positive" racism, like thinking that black people are better at dancing - just a random example). Same thing with homophobia: On this forum there have been many people saying, for example, that they feel uncomfortable with the "queeny" way of being gay: the crossdressing, wristflapping, transsexual way of being gay. I personally love that a lot, but I have so many gay friends who feel uncomfortable about it, who need to make it very clear that they are a very different sort of gay man, a real man. I'm not saying that is wrong in any way, but I am saying that this is a product of homophobic society which makes it hard for anybody to identify with the "sissy" image, gay  or not. Where am I heading? I want to appeal to all of us, not to think that we are on an island outside society here, where no homophobic thought will ever occur. Because I have an interest in changing the homophobic status quo. And that is only possible if we see ourselves as part of what is happening out there. Okay, nuff preaching  In case it should have sounded overcritical:  all, and I'm German, they love to criticize (another stereotype...) ^^) And I know this is 

monicita

Hey cool, hippie utopianist.  Okay, I didn't even recognize it as something I said, when you said "You say that homophobia is the responsibility of a homophobic society and not our's."  I was actually trying to say that here on this forum, we're "preaching to the choir."  We don't have to convince anyone here that homophobia killed Jack and killed Ennis and Jack's love.  In addition, I suppose I was thinking of us here as an "us," where all our different types and styles are okay. 

But I see what you mean, about people not being comfortable with certain other kinds of people.  This isn't just a gay thing, obviously, but everyone.  (I will admit to prejudices in my time -- such as against women who are desperate to be sex objects; but now, part of the grace of age is less and less prejudice or generalizations about people.)  This is a huge thing, though, with no easy answers.  I certainly know that oftentimes, men and women on this forum will be feeling totally different things, even getting bugged by someone else.  I can't say, but maybe the serious philosophical types could be bugged by the girlfans who want to talk about Heath's butt or Jake's tongue.  So okay, that's why we have separate threads.  A pretty good system. 

I didn't know "Germans like to criticize."  Funny.  What's my excuse then?  Lithuanian-English-Scottish-Irish-Welsh St. Louis/California older gals are critical?  Actually, I wouldn't call myself critical.  I like to observe -- I usually don't draw conclusions.  Well, no, that's not exactly true...  Forget it.

Anyway, of course we're not an island outside of society here, and that's what I think is so great about it.  Another group I've been closely involved in, K/S (Kirk and Spock as lovers), is almost too heterogeneous -- all women, mostly "of a certain age."  So I like this group's diversity.

But wait, I meant to respond to some things you said.  Some generalizations are true, though, such as about blacks and dancing.  Well, that used to be true, but maybe some white folk got their groove somewhere along the line -- from black folk.

Interesting what you said about queeny gay men and some other gay men not liking that.  Mostly I love it, myself.  (I mean, unless someone is obnoxious -- but anyone, any damn person of any kind, can be obnoxious, or mean, whatever.)  But this gets into a sticky subject, in my opinion.  If we can grant that "men are the top of the food chain" in most societies, then to act like a man is a compliment and to be aspired to.  If we can grant that "women are second-class citizens," then to act like a woman is a step down, a degrading thing.  Of course we women like it -- we get more "girlfriends."  But it's an insult to men, to be called anything feminine.  ("Girly-men" -- what an idiotic thing for the Gov. of Calif. to say!!)  Now, why men would find this in any way threatening, I don't know.  They might dislike it, but so what?  Just walk away then.

I really don't want to get into this conversation, though -- except it does have to do with Ennis and Jack, because the men that were shown for all the world to see are not the femmes.  People are comfortable making fun of the feminine-ish men, but seeing masculine men together sexually has to be jarring to straight men.

And if some masculine gay men don't want to be associated with feminine gay men, well I understand that.  In my early years, as a radical feminist Berkeley lesbian, I didn't want to be associated with, say, the leather boys in San Francisco -- we're two different species.

And as far as lesbians, that's a whole other story we're not even talking about here.  Because men and women are different...or are they?

Oh man, this is just way too complicated.  And I am no lover of hard-and-fast answers, never have been.  I'm not trying to figure the whole world out, nor do I even think it possible to make big changes.  I do think we make incremental changes, and we humans have always been doing just that, and continue to do so...  Perhaps this time will be looked back on the same as how we look in unbelieving distaste at blacks having to sit at the back of the bus.  But maybe not.  Sexuality is different, too charged?

Meanwhile, think globally, act locally.  We have a wonderful local and simultaneously global group here and a beautiful thing to be drawn together by (as opposed to, say, knitting or ice hockey -- not that there's anything wrong with that), and if we can just keep up discourse in whatever way we all like, then all is right with the world.

kathy

[monicita]

Amen, Kathy. You've  said it all.
 I'd love to know more about your Berkeley times... And Kirk and Spock as lovers sounds interesting and weird at the same time.

monicita

[tpe]

NOt surprisingly, there is a huge segment of the gay population who would pretty much identify with Ennis.  Let us not forget that there is a vast number of gay people who constanty struggle to come to grips with their sexuality, and we're talking about gays who ARE OUT, mind you...

[welshwitch]

I guess the Kirk and Spock thing is descended form Leslie Fiedler's theory about the underlying homoeroticism in many classic American novels?

I'm sure you're right. tpe; it's also true of some straight people, of course, though probably more rarely. Like Ennis, though, perhaps the peole you're talking about are conditioned by society - it's almost impossible to disentangle how much influence that has. If Ennsi had grown up in anothe time and place would he have been more accepting of himself? There's no answer, of course.

[tpe]

I guess the Kirk and Spock thing is descended form Leslie Fiedler's theory about the underlying homoeroticism in many classic American novels?

I'm sure you're right. tpe; it's also true of some straight people, of course, though probably more rarely. Like Ennis, though, perhaps the peole you're talking about are conditioned by society - it's almost impossible to disentangle how much influence that has. If Ennsi had grown up in anothe time and place would he have been more accepting of himself? There's no answer, of course.

Yes, as in the case of Ennis, thnings like this become impossible to entangle.  That is why Ennis's character is so powerful.  I suspect that people identify with him more than they are willing to admit even to themselves...

[ksxks]

NOt surprisingly, there is a huge segment of the gay population who would pretty much identify with Ennis.  Let us not forget that there is a vast number of gay people who constanty struggle to come to grips with their sexuality, and we're talking about gays who ARE OUT, mind you...

Oh yes, I'm glad you said this, tpe.  This is a whole other fascinating subject, of gay men who identify with Ennis, who are not really letting themselves out...  And welscwitch, what you said, too:  it's the same for straight people, for everyone, that our true selves are so conditioned and held in, due to tons of reasons.

kathy

[ksxks]

I guess the Kirk and Spock thing is descended form Leslie Fiedler's theory about the underlying homoeroticism in many classic American novels?

WW:  I don't know about Leslie Fiedler, I'll have to look that up.  What I know is that Gene Roddenberry really wanted to show a future society that didn't have the constraints that ours has, and in the 60's had even more so.  He was of course limited in what would get past the censors.  But we who watched it saw the friendship developing between Kirk and Spock, helped along by the chemistry between Shatner and Nimoy, and the fascinating thing of a human and Vulcan together...and our ripe little libidos took it from there.  It was all primarily women at that time, and that's a whole other subject as we all know, of why women find men-in-love so compelling...but we do.  Bless you, you men.

Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis...  Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him.  If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...

kathy

[dalemidex]

Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis...  Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him.  If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...

You know Kathy, I wonder if you've hit a on an aspect of Ennis' love for Jack that hasn't been discussed much.  I'm someone who believes Ennis was not simply an average straight man who happens to out of the blue fall in love with another man.  I believe he had some homosexual thoughts, feelings and inclinations before he met Jack.  Imagine how affirming, in a way, it must have been to find someone else who felt the same way.  Someone to tell him "it's alright".  I think this was a significant thread within the complex fabric of love and attraction.

But sadly, as we know, Ennis never really reconciled all this within himself.  Certainly not while Jack was alive.  Jack told him it was alright, and clearly Ennis took comfort in that.  But he never really believed it himself.  Not consistently, at least.  The conflict within Ennis really rips my heart out when I focus on it.

[ksxks]

Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis...  Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him.  If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...

You know Kathy, I wonder if you've hit a on an aspect of Ennis' love for Jack that hasn't been discussed much.  I'm someone who believes Ennis was not simply an average straight man who happens to out of the blue fall in love with another man.  I believe he had some homosexual thoughts, feelings and inclinations before he met Jack.  Imagine how affirming, in a way, it must have been to find someone else who felt the same way.  Someone to tell him "it's alright".  I think this was a significant thread within the complex fabric of love and attraction.

But sadly, as we know, Ennis never really reconciled all this within himself.  Certainly not while Jack was alive.  Jack told him it was alright, and clearly Ennis took comfort in that.  But he never really believed it himself.  Not consistently, at least.  The conflict within Ennis really rips my heart out when I focus on it.

dalemidix:  Yes, it rips my heart out, too.  I think Ennis needed more than only Jack telling him it's alright.  He saw Jack as a dreamer and unrealistic, whereas he thought his own take on life was the realistic one.  At first, certainly, what an incredible joy to be thrown together with Jack and to find a kindred spirit.  But he couldn't from the start reconcile that with what he had to do -- go back and marry Alma.

I don't either think Ennis was some average straight man who just happened to fall in love with a man.  Maybe I'm getting some various fanfic mixed up with BBM canon, but it does seem we can see that maybe he was "different" and that's why his father so adamantly showed him and his brother what could happen.  That's just part of Ennis's gayness story.  Also there was the "no instruction manual needed" in the short story.

kathy

[tpe]

Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis...  Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him.  If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...

You know Kathy, I wonder if you've hit a on an aspect of Ennis' love for Jack that hasn't been discussed much.  I'm someone who believes Ennis was not simply an average straight man who happens to out of the blue fall in love with another man.  I believe he had some homosexual thoughts, feelings and inclinations before he met Jack.  Imagine how affirming, in a way, it must have been to find someone else who felt the same way.  Someone to tell him "it's alright".  I think this was a significant thread within the complex fabric of love and attraction.

But sadly, as we know, Ennis never really reconciled all this within himself.  Certainly not while Jack was alive.  Jack told him it was alright, and clearly Ennis took comfort in that.  But he never really believed it himself.  Not consistently, at least.  The conflict within Ennis really rips my heart out when I focus on it.

Beautifully stated.