Topic: was ennis gay ?

[tpe]

Personally, I don't believe that one has to be physically attracted to the oppisite sex to have sex with them.  I know that many give in to family and social pressures to marry and have children -- and that sex in this context was a necessary "evil".  THis is true most especially in old Asian cultures, where the need to have heirs is imperative.  I certainly know of a number of my friends who started out married and admitted that they were able to perform for years without being physically attracted to their partners.

As to the second question, I do agree that it is hard to say withn certainly that Ennis was only attracted to Jack.  The story does not tell us of anybody else, but that does not mean that this omission proves the said proposition.  The most we can say is that throughout Jack's life (and most likely beyond), Ennis remained faithful to Jack -- insofar as relationships with other men were concerned.  Faithfulness does not rule out desire, as all of us know.

[ksxks]

...
I have one other question I'd like to put out there and it concerns the fact that many say that Ennis was ONLY attracted to Jack. Was it possible that Ennis could have at least found other men attactive? Not necessarily intending to act on on any of it of course but at least LOOKED.  I know there's no evidence  in the movie to sustain this but in my mind only, he had to compare...... (a roving eye?) as Jack certainly did. We all do at some point when we see a strikingly attractive person right?  I mean he was human. I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms here.  He's such a complex character whom I enjoy dissecting  Ledger gave heart to this tortured soul. Excellent.

I had not thought of this in connection with Ennis, about him checking out other guys -- just curiously wondering about them, wondering if this is someone who he could (theoretically -- or whatever word Ennis would use) be with.  I have this little bit of personal experience to offer.  When I first fell in love with a woman, it opened up a whole new world to me, and all of a sudden I was seeing all women as potential lovers -- theoretically of course   We were in a five-year relationship, Sue and I, but there was a whole lot of flirting and buzzing sexual energies going on amongst all the lesbians -- and straight women friends of lesbians -- in Berkeley at the time (70's).  It was such a new thrilling thing, to be with women, that it sparked and colored how I saw a whole half of the people I hadn't really considered before.  It of course also complicated things.  Straight" people have it nice when everything's all clearly defined:  for women, men are generally who you have sexual relationships with, and women are your most trusted of friends.  You put sexual tension in where you used to be just all-out anything goes change-clothes together friends, and...it complicates things.  I'll stop there because I could go on and on.

So, back to Ennis, he may have just had those blinders on so tight that he never even allowed himself to consider that there might be other men who he could be close to in the same way as Jack.  Or he could have looked and wondered.  I do agree, aintfoolin, that there seems no evidence in the movie of him observing any other men in other than his usual ways.

kathy

[ksxks]

Personally, I don't believe that one has to be physically attracted to the oppisite sex to have sex with them.  I know that many give in to family and social pressures to marry and have children -- and that sex in this context was a necessary "evil".  THis is true most especially in old Asian cultures, where the need to have heirs is imperative.  I certainly know of a number of my friends who started out married and admitted that they were able to perform for years without being physically attracted to their partners.

As to the second question, I do agree that it is hard to say withn certainly that Ennis was only attracted to Jack.  The story does not tell us of anybody else, but that does not mean that this omission proves the said proposition.  The most we can say is that throughout Jack's life (and most likely beyond), Ennis remained faithful to Jack -- insofar as relationships with other men were concerned.  Faithfulness does not rule out desire, as all of us know.

So right, Thomas.  This is probably, throughout history and in all cultures, as often the case as it is not the case, that people married and had sex to carry on the line, while their "preferences" lay elsewhere.  And were acted upon, too -- just not openly.

kathy

[tpe]

So right, Thomas.  This is probably, throughout history and in all cultures, as often the case as it is not the case, that people married and had sex to carry on the line, while their "preferences" lay elsewhere.  And were acted upon, too -- just not openly.

kathy

And this is certainly very true of Heterosexual married couples, as you probably meant to say in the above statement...

 

[Audrey twist]

I don't think so.

[monicita]

Greetings, aintfoolin. 
Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
I wanted to add that I have some difficulty with the idea of "exploring" one's sexual orientation, as tpe posted just recently ; that is only because in my personal experience, I have never encountered anyone who could distance him/herself from his/her sexual orientation. Practically every male homosexual I have ever known has been confronted with his homosexuality as by something he wanted to fight against but could never win. There was no choice in the matter. Some could get married to a woman and have children, but they were living in utter misery and concealing it every day.
Getting back to Ennis, he loved only Jack ; he didn't want other men. I just call it Eternal Love  :-[

Hi Stephan,

I have actually met a few people who could and did "distance themselves" from their sexual orientation, as you put it. Especially women, who relatively late in life make a choice to become lesbians, because they can't stand men any more, because they decide that they want a life only with women. For most of them, it isn't so much about sex, but much more about the whole "male" thing. Some of them don't even have a lot of sex with women: they just opt for this totally different life. And then there are people like me: I have always been totally entranced by gay sex. I've always wanted to be a gay man (since I was about 12 or 13, when the concept began to dawn on me). So what exactly is sexual orientation for somebody like me? In the end, I like your last line best: Eternal Love doesn't ask for sexual orientation, does it?

monicita

[tpe]

Hi Stephan,

I have actually met a few people who could and did "distance themselves" from their sexual orientation, as you put it. Especially women, who relatively late in life make a choice to become lesbians, because they can't stand men any more, because they decide that they want a life only with women. For most of them, it isn't so much about sex, but much more about the whole "male" thing. Some of them don't even have a lot of sex with women: they just opt for this totally different life. And then there are people like me: I have always been totally entranced by gay sex. I've always wanted to be a gay man (since I was about 12 or 13, when the concept began to dawn on me). So what exactly is sexual orientation for somebody like me? In the end, I like your last line best: Eternal Love doesn't ask for sexual orientation, does it?

monicita

Very interesting things you say here, monicita.  I have no doubt that "orientation" is simply an approximate for the complexities of human sexuality.  For many, it may appear clearcut -- given each person's limited view of things.  But taken as a whole, one will have to intentionally close one's eyes in order not to see the richness of human experience in this aspect.

[jackster]

To answer this you have to have a generally accepted definition of "gay". Dictionaries notwithstanding, I'm not sure this truly exists. Ennis sure didn't think he was "gay", but he knew what he liked and what pushed his buttons, from the SS:

"Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin' up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was_? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin' it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?"

He wasn't afraid to tell Jack that his fantasies were not only him, but sex with him. I think this shows a lot of self realization and, for Ennis especially, confidence about his sexual desire (in order to share this with Jack). Note I said desire not desires, it seems pretty specific to Jack, period.

[aintfoolin]

This says to me that even though they both had a wife and kids , he still remained unfulfilled  without Jack. It was a another man, Jack, who turned him on sexually. I go back and forth on this question because Ennis seems to be in category all his own.I'm fascinated yet baffled by it.

[tpe]

The quote from the short story hightens more the confusion.  Note that Ennis said:

"I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right?"

This shows Ennis's own confusion about his own identity.  He qualifies his denial by citing their wives and kids. To him, sexual desire for women would be sufficient to define him as not gay.  Of course, this we know is rather naive, especially in today's more complex sexual dynamic.

The second part of the quote is more revealing in that Ennis used the past tense:

"I never had no thoughts a doin' it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?"

Jack was, of course, Ennis's first.  In no way does this exclude the possibility of Ennis falling for another man in the future. The question he asks Jack in the end is an admission that the thought of "doing it" with other men did occur to him as a distinct possibility  -- although he clearly has no such desire at the present time.

Finally, it should be noted that Ennis did remain faithful to Jack in the time they were together -- i.e., he did not consort with other men.  As I had said previously, faithfulness does not prove the absence of desire.

It is the complexity of Ennis's sexual identity that is one of the crowning glories of this story.  However we choose to view it, we are all in agreement that it makes us go back to our own identity and look deeper into what makes us what we are.

[jackster]

It is the complexity of Ennis's sexual identity that is one of the crowning glories of this story.  However we choose to view it, we are all in agreement that it makes us go back to our own identity and look deeper into what makes us what we are.

Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.

[ksxks]

...
It is the complexity of Ennis's sexual identity that is one of the crowning glories of this story.  However we choose to view it, we are all in agreement that it makes us go back to our own identity and look deeper into what makes us what we are.

Beautiful, tpe.  Ennis, and Jack, too, were complex characters -- what makes this such a deep experience for all of us.

kathy

[ksxks]

Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.

Ah, yes, Jackster.  The story and film the best of the arts, that we get to see from our own eyes and hearts.

kathy

[tpe]

Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.

Wonderfully and very movingly said.  I have said before that BBM is like a great mirror.  What can be seen depends on who looks into its depths.

[welshwitch]

Isn't that one of the marks of a great classic, that it's there yet somehow transparent, subsuming you and letting you merge with it. Coleridge said, "I am Hamlet," and that's how closely you can identify with a classic character. We identify with Jack and Ennis because we have a part of their characters within us.

[welshwitch]

Than I remembered the players in "Hamlet" and Hamlet's definition of acting - "To hold, as 'twere, the  mirror up to nature" - that's what great literature does and page-turners don't.

[tpe]

Isn't that one of the marks of a great classic, that it's there yet somehow transparent, subsuming you and letting you merge with it. Coleridge said, "I am Hamlet," and that's how closely you can identify with a classic character. We identify with Jack and Ennis because we have a part of their characters within us.

It is so easy to feel for Ennis, and yet we cannot even understand his sexuality.  I guess it didn't matter.  As you said, there is something universal in him that touches us all.

[aintfoolin]

Yes we are all vulnreale to life's imperfections, I have concluded that Ennis's sexuality WAS Jack, and no one else. Jack's love defined him.

[stephan]

Hi Stephan,
I have actually met a few people who could and did "distance themselves" from their sexual orientation, as you put it. Especially women, who relatively late in life make a choice to become lesbians, because they can't stand men any more, because they decide that they want a life only with women. For most of them, it isn't so much about sex, but much more about the whole "male" thing. Some of them don't even have a lot of sex with women: they just opt for this totally different life. And then there are people like me: I have always been totally entranced by gay sex. I've always wanted to be a gay man (since I was about 12 or 13, when the concept began to dawn on me). So what exactly is sexual orientation for somebody like me? In the end, I like your last line best: Eternal Love doesn't ask for sexual orientation, does it?
monicita

I really thank you for this input, monicita. I simply had no idea ! (Another one of those "male" things ?) Although there are times when I feel like giving up on all other men  those times have never lasted more than 24 hours 
Yes, the question "what is sexual orientation ?" is a real one. While there are some people who can distance themselves from their sexuality, others don't seem to have that capacity - for example, so many people that demand legislation on adult sexual relationships. They seem to crave putting that very intimate part of life into the public domain for lawyers to tear apart.
Sorry, I'm 

Thank heaven that love doesn't know what laws and lawyers have to do with whom you love 

[aintfoolin]

Those legislators are for the most part a bunch of closed minded individuals who define everyone by who they sleep with. IMO, they are often hypocrites in their own lives with no idea of what's  really going on in folk's every day lives. Their one size fits all just does'nt work. I still maintain that human sexuality has many branches, not just one . Those who have the capacity to distance themselves from their "true orientation" are doing so to find their comfort level about who they are and where they're at in their particular stage of life.Wether this is their" true sexual orientation"is still uncertain but at least  if they are content in whatever lifesyle they live, they should left alone to enjoy it. Your last line Stephan says it all. The law is the law but love knows no bounds.

[tpe]

Some are dirven by the notion of sin -- in the idea that some forms of love are sinful. 

I am sure that this was part of Ennis's own internal guilt.  Even though he distanced himself from organized religion later in life, Ennis could not escape the notion of wrongdoing -- even in matters pertaining to the heart.

[aintfoolin]

I can relate,being raised in a strict religious home. The guilt that Ennis felt is very hard to overcome. Although I still maintain my beleifs on a modified level, The "fire and brimestone" crowd can do harm as well as good in my opinion. He needed to know that he would'nt "burn in hell" for loving Jack.

[tpe]

I can relate,being raised in a strict religious home. The guilt that Ennis felt is very hard to overcome. Although I still maintain my beleifs on a modified level, The "fire and brimestone" crowd can do harm as well as good in my opinion. He needed to know that he would'nt "burn in hell" for loving Jack.

I am the same.  I was raised strict catholic -- old catholic, to be exact.   Yes, one lives with guilt on some level.  For someone like Ennis who grappled with this alone, it is indeed hard to overcome.  Jack was his only support, as well as the source of conflict. It must have been difficult for a person like him to even acknowlege his love in any tangible form.

[ksxks]

I was not raised with any guilt about things like this...but there are still problems, which Ennis would have had, even if he didn't believe he was personally "sinful" for loving Jack.  In his heart of hearts, even in some quiet, deep spiritual moments, he could have felt that this love was so true and so deep, and Jack was such a good person, that it could not possibly be "wrong."  But the problem he couldn't escape is knowing how everyone else seemed to believe it is wrong.  And choosing to live a life that everyone else thinks is wrong -- who will knowingly go into that easily?

kathy

[aintfoolin]

No one, especially somebody like Ennis who sorely lacks self confidence and self esteem within themselves. Being in love with Jack seemed to be the only thing Ennis was sure of. The only security he felt. Scared children make scared adults barrnig some intense therapy. This IMO was the reason Jack could'nt get Ennis to surrender completely as loving and patient ,and hopeful as he was. .Ingrained fear. It was out of Jack's control really. He could'nt "fix" Ennis, Ennis had to "fix" himself and "shit, that's hard" as Jack would say. He could only love him which he deeply did but Ennis's fear and guilt about his feelings was like a brick wall against Jack. In the scene where Jack was "thinking out loud" and suggesting Ennis find some place else to live besides Riverton.I thought it was a pretty good idea. cause Ennis was still paranoid there, thinking everyone knew about him and Jack when he walked down the streets and questioning Jack about if he felt it too. Totally frustrating after all that time!. A new setting would'nt have hurt.  It was'nt till the end when they were older that Jack finally forced Ennis to face his fears and take responsibility , (last meeting) that they had any chance of livin that "sweet life" in peace. I personally feel they would have..... had Jack lived.This is MHO.

[stephan]

(...)The law is the law but love knows no bounds.

You bet !

A new setting would'nt have hurt.  It was'nt till the end when they were older that Jack finally forced Ennis to face his fears and take responsibility , (last meeting) that they had any chance of livin that "sweet life" in peace. I personally feel they would have..... had Jack lived.This is MHO.

This is surely one of the most frustrating parts of their story. I agree with you, Ennis only felt happy and fulfilled when he was with Jack, and yet he couldn't tear himself away from his hometown, his every-day environment in which he could only feel like everyone was spying on him.
Why oh why do we do the things we do, and not do the things we long to do ??

[welshwitch]

Ennis couldn't believe that he was meant ot be happy - in the same way that Lureen referes casually to the bluebirds and the whiskey, Ennis believes that the idea of being happy with Jack is for him a mirage, a deceptive vision sent only to torment him. He dioesn't think he deserves Jack, so he's a fraid to reach out in case he loses him for ever. He's paralyzed by terror and elects to do nothing, or maybe can;t make himself act. Jack is always there. always just out of reach - of course he's another Tantalus.

[aintfoolin]

There was not much more Jack could do to prove his love for Ennis to him  ,BUT now after understanding the film better I think that Jack should've spelled it out in words that Ennis could understand , face to face , eye to eye that he knew and understood how Ennis felt and that the struggle he was going through was a normal one. I beleive this would have helped. Ennis IMO needed constant reassurnce IN WORDS that it was normal to be confused about his feelings. Some say "actions speak louder than words " and Jack went above and beyond with his actions  , but sometimes nothing replaces good old fahioned plain spokeness IMO  in a situation such as this.. Verbal  communication (he had the gift) , I beleive was the key all along. With his captivating  charm,and ability to draw Ennis out, maybe he could've gotten him  to express what he was feeling without the guilt instead of having to guess and assume so much. Worth a shot anyway.   Aint easy though. Ennis was a hard row to hoe.... but human. Just a feeling.

[stephan]

(...) Some say "actions speak louder than words " and Jack went above and beyond with his actions  , but sometimes nothing replaces good old fahioned plain spokeness IMO  in a situation such as this.. Verbal  communication (he had the gift) , I beleive was the key all along. (...)

Very true, aintfoolin. Being so unsure of himself, I can imagine that Ennis could always convince himself that Jack's actions were firstly reactions, that Jack wouldn't behave that way if Ennis wasn't there. The verbal communication arrived... about 20 years too late  :-[

[Koka]

ooh, I can't believe I didn't post in this thread before! it's gonna take me some time to go through all of your posts, but I think I'm gonna give my two cents for the time being:

honestly, I have had SO many thoughts regarding sexuality in general and have come to several conclusions which I believe to be true ( but mind you, those are my personal beliefes ). a while back, I took the time to simply toss away EVERYTHING, but I mean EVERYTHING that society had forced upon me ( although keep in mind that I never was one of those people who actually took all the crap society wanted to force down upon me ) and just- think things through, from the beginning, from the start, from ZERO. so I thought about sexualty and the conclusion I got to was the fact that all people are bisexual by nature. the problem is, 90% of the people that make our society would never ever be willing to admit such a thing to themselves let alone AlLOW themselves to feel attracted to a person of the same sex. I think that it's completely natural to be attacracted to both the same and the opposite sex ( more natural than being attracted just to a person of the opposite sex for that matter ) but as I said, the majority of people have a larger than life super ego and would never in their right minds allow themselves to just.....feel.....and embrace their sexuality and sexual energy in general. and the sad part is that people aren't even aware of these things. they live in their sheltered worlds GLAD that they 'mend with the crowd' and don't do anything that could jeopardise their perception of themselves and other people's perceptions of them.

my point being:

ennis simply fell in love. If he had never met Jack, he would have probably never ALLOWED himself to feel attracted to any other man, thus he would have never realised he was 'gay'. I think he loved Alma and he loved sex with women in general ( making him 'bi' )- but he LOVED jack. he feel in love with the person that jack was and not with the fact he had a dick he could wave around. but as far as attraction in general is concerned- I belive he felt attracted to both men and women. but as far a love is concerned, jack was the one who had his heart.