Author Topic: was ennis gay ?  (Read 566718 times)

Offline chameau

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #300 on: Dec 29, 2006, 10:35 PM »
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.

I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.

Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)

I didn't had the opportunity to welcome you before Sprague Dawley, so...  #$#

Thank you for this interesting insight.  I'm looking forward to read more from you on this forum.  ;)
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #301 on: Jan 02, 2007, 10:47 AM »
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.

I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.

Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)

Thank you, Sprague Dawley, for the link.  I will get back to this when I had done reading and thinking about it.


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #302 on: Jan 05, 2007, 03:59 PM »
Bumping this up for easier reference.


Offline Magdalena

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #303 on: Feb 04, 2007, 11:37 PM »
hmmm...  isnt it up to the writer to decide if he was gay or not?
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #304 on: Feb 05, 2007, 09:10 AM »
>>>>.......A woman simply is, but a man must become. Masculinity is risky and elusive. It is achieved by a revolt from woman, and it is confirmed only by other men. . . ..
-- Camille Paglia......<<<<<
 
When  reading, it helps to keep this definition in mind to the word DESIRE: ...the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state
 

 In my opinion,Ennis was never gay,or,as he pointed out to Jack..."queer". During ANY point of the film was Ennis EVER gay. THAT'S the beauty of Brokeback Mountain.THAT"S what gives the films now immortal words  " Love is a Force of Nature." its impact.

THAT'S  the power of love.
 
Jack and Ennis came together under certain favorable conditions or ,depending on your viewpoint ,unfavorable conditions..Whatever your viewpoint, they came together having within themselves something the other desired desperately. Ennis had a desire to feel appreciated,looked up to and respected.Jack had a desire for a strong authoritative male figure to validate his own masculinity. Which is pretty much the basic motivation of rodeo riders. To prove their masculinity and have it validated by other men.
 
Anyway,Ennis and Jack arrived together with an inate desire as every normal human being. A desire for physical intimacy.Up to this point,Ennnis had never felt physical intimacy with another human being.Not even from the woman to whom he was engaged.So I imagine it was an extremely powerful urge having been pent up all those years.I could be wrong but I also imagine the scene between Alma and Ennis sled-riding happened on occasion prior to the couples marriage, soooo , all that physical contact must have sent Ennis urges to the stratophere if Alma hadn't satisfied those needs,seal an intimate bond with Ennis before Jack did.Think hard about that sledding scene.Did the affection between Alma and Ennis seem genuine? Or did it seem a somewhat half-hearted attepmt by Ennis to cover up a supposingly  repressed homosexual identity.

How about the bedroom scene after Ennis arrives home and comforts to sleep Jenny and Alma Jr. Was Ennis genuinely seduced by Alma or did he succumb reluctantly?We also know Ennis was " Putting the blocks " to Cassie. I believe he chose to  because he was genuinely charmed by Cassie's beauty and personality.
 
Regarding Jack. His desires were evident to Ennis because Jack wore his heart on his sleeve.Or more appropriately,on his face,as was also evident to the rodeo clown having picked up Jacks vibes.Although the rodeo clown correctly perceieved it as sexual,Jack simply wanted the male approval and validation which had been so elusive to him.The same male approval and validation the rodeo clown fully enjoyed, as witnessed by the large group of male peers he aproached at the pool table.
 
I'm sure Jack tried his best to win approval through typical manly pursuits but none were effective.Jacks Dad surely never gave him support.Never passed on to his son his succesful rodeo riding secrets."Never came to see him ride." Fact is, according to Annies short story his father actually urinated on him. All Jacks attepmts seemed to fall short of his goal due to his less than satisfactory masculine adeptness.
 
Jack more then likely felt his line of approach was the only option remaining to him to have his desires fullfilled . After all,it worked extremely well on at least one occasion we know of,with Ennis at Brokeback. Exceeded his wildest dreams even. 

When Ennis and Jack met,Ennis already had an established relationship with a woman.Jack on the other hand hadn't.When Ennis mentioned his engagement to Alma,to Jack, Jack immediately dismissed his comment by not elaborating on it further.Didn't really want to acknowledege it.
 
Anyway,As most men do,Ennis and Jack continued to bond through time spent working with each other.Under these conditions with some time spent together,a sip or two of spirits ,Jack's coaxing Ennis to open up and talk about himself ,enabled a guarded Ennis to slowly let his defense mechnism down.Which allowed Jack to make a connection and eliminate Ennis startle point all together.All these conditions made for a very powerfull seductive force.The seclusion and privacy of the mountains eliminated the risk factor.Then...K-A-P-O-W !!!!!!! They met each others needs in a  very unconventional manner.Even worst.One that was taboo.
 
All that time spent together lovin'  and workin' caused them to create a still stronger bond.An intimate bond. A bond shared in the same manner as husband and wife where the two became as one. This In spite of Ennis true heterosexual nature.Which Ennis never denounced nor gave any indication existed otherwise in manner,word or deed.He believed himself heterosexual to the end. Jack was simply very special buddy whom he loved dearly....physically.....powerfully.So powerfully the love could never be replicated.Not with a man.Not with a woman. Poor Ennis was left in limbo and in a crisis unfortunately.
 
Still,its a testament to how powerful a force love actually is.

Thanks HiAltShag . and welcome to the forum,

My opinion (as can be seen in the previous posts) is actually different from yours, but I must admit that whatever the answer to this question it is not at all straightforward.

You had mentioned the bedroomscene between Ennis and Alma.  The most telling detail in that scene, of course, is that Ennis preferred to have anal intercourse with Alma in that scene.  The implication is quite clear.

In a number of other threads, it has been noted that there was a clear lack of intimacy between Ennis and Cassie, at least as far as the scenes in the film are concerned. For example, there is not a single scene that shows them intimate, in bed, or even kissing.  The fact that we don't see them intimate does not exclude the possibility that they were, but the fact that the film makers excluded any such scenes is quite telling.

In a repressed society, it is certainly quite common for gay men to have long established relationships with women, and many do marry and lead otherwise normal-looking lives with children, except that their true nature is revealed in secrecy, and with others who share the same orientation.

My deceased friend Robert is an excellent example.  His first experience of having sex was with a woman, but decided for himself in the long run that this was not for him.  Nonetheless, he maintained throughout his life a guarded attitude to his sexuality, refusing to hold hands or kiss other men (including his long term partners) in public.  Some of his closest and most intimate (and I daresay, the most stable) friends were women, and he always accompanied them to public functions and trips abroad, even if the affection was platonic.

There is no easy way to tell whether Ennis was not or was gay.  And I would also point out that the same is surprisingly true even with Jack! 

What constitutes gayness?  When does gayness end and bisexuality begin?  Is there such a thing as "absolutely" straight?  These questions are never easy to answer, especially when it comes to fictional characters like Ennis who may go in a number of directions.

As I said before, pursuing the answer to this question reveals more about ourselves than about the characters we are analyzing.  It is a question that reflects on the individual journeys each of us has made.

 
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2007, 09:27 AM by tpe »

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #305 on: Feb 05, 2007, 09:16 AM »
hmmm...  isnt it up to the writer to decide if he was gay or not?

Hello Magdalena. 

Every writer of fiction -- in a sense -- loses total control over his/her work when it is released to the wider public.  In many cases, the writers themselves don't really know the answer, and leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions.  I believe such is the case with Proulx.  I think she said as much when she said that BBM was a "study" of homophobia in the land of the "pure" cowboy.

Works of fiction are all the more richer when they establish a life of their own, separate from the original author's thoughts and intentions.  It hints at the broader universality of the subject matter.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #306 on: Feb 05, 2007, 10:07 AM »
To quote the poet "I contain multitudes". So do we all.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #307 on: Feb 05, 2007, 09:31 PM »
All that time spent together lovin'  and workin' caused them to create a still stronger bond.An intimate bond. A bond shared in the same manner as husband and wife where the two became as one. This In spite of Ennis true heterosexual nature.Which Ennis never denounced nor gave any indication existed otherwise in manner,word or deed.He believed himself heterosexual to the end. Jack was simply very special buddy whom he loved dearly....physically.....powerfully.So powerfully the love could never be replicated.Not with a man.Not with a woman. Poor Ennis was left in limbo and in a crisis unfortunately.
 
Still,its a testament to how powerful a force love actually is.

my two cents for what its worth guys:

Ennis was in limbo before Jack's death.  Ennis's "true heterosexual nature" ?  Ennis  tried to gain a   "a true heterosexual nature" and it was only for survival, to be safe, but  it always left him wanting, isolated,  alone, and confused,  battling his need to be what the world think he should be, and his need for Jack.

Alma and Cassie,  though they love him, wanted him, they couldn't come close to what Ennis felt when he was with Jack.  Even though he tried to live the conventional life, both women left the relationship unhappy and unfulfilled.

It wasn't until Jack death, did Ennis finally understood it all, the joy they had, the pain they shared, and the answer was in Jack's room.    There was no limbo after that,  Ennis and Jack were in love, I think Ennis finally accepted that, and most importantly accepted himself,  a little late, but acceptance always comes in its own time. 

And this is how I see it.

Works of fiction are all the more richer when they establish a life of their own, separate from the original author's thoughts and intentions.  It hints at the broader universality of the subject matter.

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #308 on: Feb 05, 2007, 11:30 PM »
hmmm...  isnt it up to the writer to decide if he was gay or not?

Good point.  We can read these two men however we want, read the whole movie however we want, but AP is the one who can really answer this question.  And LM and DO and AL, too, I suppose, since AP gave them a certain amount of liberty with her story.

kathy
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Offline irving

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #309 on: Feb 06, 2007, 08:31 AM »
Greetings manhattangirl !!
   Feel free to chime in anytime.Everyone's "two cents" here is equal at the exchange rate. I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love and be attracted  a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety?

Yes they can...and I agree with manhattangirl....so well said.  This is why I dislike labels so much.  We are not a world of homosexuals and heterosexuals..we are a world of human beings and sometimes the lines get crossed.  I don't find it unbelievable in the least that a "heterosexual male" would fall in love with another man...given the right circumstances...I've seen it happen to men as well as women.  Does it cause confusion and anxiety? Of course it does...look what it did to Ennis.  Was ennis gay? If you want to label him gay or not it doesn't seem important to me....he was just a man who happened to fall in love with another man.  Maybe I am simplyfing the matter.  But that is how I feel about it.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #310 on: Feb 06, 2007, 09:26 AM »
my two cents for what its worth guys:

Ennis was in limbo before Jack's death.  Ennis's "true heterosexual nature" ?  Ennis  tried to gain a   "a true heterosexual nature" and it was only for survival, to be safe, but  it always left him wanting, isolated,  alone, and confused,  battling his need to be what the world think he should be, and his need for Jack.

Alma and Cassie,  though they love him, wanted him, they couldn't come close to what Ennis felt when he was with Jack.  Even though he tried to live the conventional life, both women left the relationship unhappy and unfulfilled.

It wasn't until Jack death, did Ennis finally understood it all, the joy they had, the pain they shared, and the answer was in Jack's room.    There was no limbo after that,  Ennis and Jack were in love, I think Ennis finally accepted that, and most importantly accepted himself,  a little late, but acceptance always comes in its own time.
 

The last paragraph summarizes how I feel.  Whether you agree or not on whether Ennis was gay, there is no denying in the end that Ennis loved Jack deeply.  It was this realization that saved Ennis from total despair.


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #311 on: Feb 06, 2007, 09:28 AM »
To quote the poet "I contain multitudes". So do we all.

This certainly applies to the question of human sexuality, IMO...


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #312 on: Feb 06, 2007, 09:32 AM »
Good point.  We can read these two men however we want, read the whole movie however we want, but AP is the one who can really answer this question.  And LM and DO and AL, too, I suppose, since AP gave them a certain amount of liberty with her story.

kathy

kathy, here I disagree.  I would even wager that Proulx does not even know the final answer.  And even if she did have a strong opinion, I doubt that she would want to spell it out any time soon.  She knows the power of literature and fiction in particular.  The ambiguity of Ennis's sexuality is one of the great powers of story and film.  As in Poetry, to spell out everything would be to destroy that power.


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #313 on: Feb 06, 2007, 09:35 AM »
Yes they can...and I agree with manhattangirl....so well said.  This is why I dislike labels so much.  We are not a world of homosexuals and heterosexuals..we are a world of human beings and sometimes the lines get crossed.  I don't find it unbelievable in the least that a "heterosexual male" would fall in love with another man...given the right circumstances...I've seen it happen to men as well as women.  Does it cause confusion and anxiety? Of course it does...look what it did to Ennis.  Was ennis gay? If you want to label him gay or not it doesn't seem important to me....he was just a man who happened to fall in love with another man.  Maybe I am simplyfing the matter.  But that is how I feel about it.

Although I do personally label him as gay, I do understand your point.  It has also been voiced out by Patriot1 and a number of members here.  I don't dare to insist on my point of view.


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #314 on: Feb 06, 2007, 12:57 PM »
Thanks HiAltShag.

This really is an interesting question for me.  As many members have said, sexuality is such a complicated thing that it is safest not to generalize.  Still, pursuing answers to this one question is a wonderful journey into ourselves and the world we live in.


Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #315 on: Feb 06, 2007, 07:52 PM »
kathy, here I disagree.  I would even wager that Proulx does not even know the final answer.  And even if she did have a strong opinion, I doubt that she would want to spell it out any time soon.  She knows the power of literature and fiction in particular.  The ambiguity of Ennis's sexuality is one of the great powers of story and film.  As in Poetry, to spell out everything would be to destroy that power.


Agreed, that Annie didn't spell it out; but I'm thinking of her sense of Ennis, what she felt when she was writing him; and what the others felt, in how to portray him (both of them).  Besides being masters of their crafts, the writer, the filmmaker, as far as leaving it ambiguous, it is also that many people do have trouble with ambiguity in sexual matters.  I like it, myself.  My own experience is bisexual, so I'm comfortable with not-either/or.

I think that if Ennis hadn't had the "Rich and Earl" experience, he might have been a more ordinary heterosexual guy who never gave deep thought to homosexuality.  Maybe had some youthful experience, but didn't agonize over it.  Considered his place was to do the wife-and-children thing.  And I could see him falling into a thing with Jack, as we saw it, even in this circumstance.  But because he did have that experience, he spent the next years in serious "don't-be-queer-don't-be-queer" mode, so that having the thing with Jack then put him into a crazy spin -- kind of schizo, like ignoring it during the four years (except for 'wranging it out a thousand times') and during the other times apart from Jack, then plunging in wholeheartedly when with Jack.

But with just a slightly different perspective on some part of the story or movie, I can see Ennis other ways, too.  And I love that about BBM, and about everyone here, with all the different perspectives.

kathy
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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #316 on: Feb 06, 2007, 08:19 PM »
HiAltShag:

I've read your post this morning.   I went to work, and at the office, I thought about the questions you asked me all day. 
 
I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love or be attracted to a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety? Have you ever considered introducing the dynamics of bi-sexuality into the equation ?

Bisexuality, true that was something I never considered in this story of these two men.  Why? this may sound simplistic to you you, so bear with me.  There was something Ennis showed  the women in his life,  Alma and Cassie,  both total opposites of each other,  Alma, accommodating, wanting to  please Ennis, have his children, not demanding.   Cassie, fiery, aggressive, sexual.   What was his reaction to the both of them, in this long and painful run, it was indifference.  The relationship he had with them was a  facade he took part in,  a part he was willing play in order for him to survive. 

When he and Alma divorced he lost his identity to world as a "married man".   Putting the blocks on Cassie, well that was going nowhere you saw that when he talk of her to Jack.

But honestly who was it he did want?  Who did he crave for?  And most importantly who was the one he wasn't willing to let go of?

Look I not an expert by no means of Sexuality, or how the mind works or anything like that.  This is just IMO.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #317 on: Feb 07, 2007, 10:18 AM »
Agreed, that Annie didn't spell it out; but I'm thinking of her sense of Ennis, what she felt when she was writing him; and what the others felt, in how to portray him (both of them).  Besides being masters of their crafts, the writer, the filmmaker, as far as leaving it ambiguous, it is also that many people do have trouble with ambiguity in sexual matters.  I like it, myself.  My own experience is bisexual, so I'm comfortable with not-either/or.

I think that if Ennis hadn't had the "Rich and Earl" experience, he might have been a more ordinary heterosexual guy who never gave deep thought to homosexuality.  Maybe had some youthful experience, but didn't agonize over it.  Considered his place was to do the wife-and-children thing.  And I could see him falling into a thing with Jack, as we saw it, even in this circumstance.  But because he did have that experience, he spent the next years in serious "don't-be-queer-don't-be-queer" mode, so that having the thing with Jack then put him into a crazy spin -- kind of schizo, like ignoring it during the four years (except for 'wranging it out a thousand times') and during the other times apart from Jack, then plunging in wholeheartedly when with Jack.

But with just a slightly different perspective on some part of the story or movie, I can see Ennis other ways, too.  And I love that about BBM, and about everyone here, with all the different perspectives.

kathy

Thanks kathy.  I do think you are particularly inclined to appreciate the ambiguity more than other people (like me!).

I suspect that even without the Earl and Rich incident, Ennis would have harbored that ambiguity like some hidden hurt.  Things deep inside have a a way of surfacing at any given opportunity, no matter how hard one tries to suppress them.  Sexuality and sexual inclinations would fit into the category.  It simply cannot be repressed, if one has an inclination.  And yet, without Jack or the Earl and Rich episode, this inclination may have simply surfaced in Ennis's life in the guise of an abiding unhappiness and discontent.  Repression is a strange thing.  It transforms unfulfilled desires into every conceivable form of internal malaise.


Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #318 on: Feb 07, 2007, 10:54 PM »
So true.  That's considering he did have that inclination from his young years on.  If so, then yes, that kind of repression is so unhealthy, internally, and acting-out, and worse.  Certainly the man we saw, who was so quick to use his fists -- if his pent-up-ness wasn't due to repressed sexual inclinations, then it was due to repressed something.

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #319 on: Feb 08, 2007, 08:59 AM »
So true.  That's considering he did have that inclination from his young years on.  If so, then yes, that kind of repression is so unhealthy, internally, and acting-out, and worse.  Certainly the man we saw, who was so quick to use his fists -- if his pent-up-ness wasn't due to repressed sexual inclinations, then it was due to repressed something.

kathy

Ennis is such an interesting character, sexually speaking.  You are right: we really know next to nothing about his sexual inclinations during his early/formative years.  Although he claimed to be a virgin by the time he met Jack, I would think that he must have had SOME degree of sexual experience.  After all, he was considering marrying Alma in November, and one does not decide on marriage with someone you have not had some degree of intimacy with.



Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #320 on: Feb 08, 2007, 10:34 PM »
Ennis is such an interesting character, sexually speaking.  You are right: we really know next to nothing about his sexual inclinations during his early/formative years.  Although he claimed to be a virgin by the time he met Jack, I would think that he must have had SOME degree of sexual experience.  After all, he was considering marrying Alma in November, and one does not decide on marriage with someone you have not had some degree of intimacy with.

Some very small degree of intimacy only, I think.  In those times, and she was probably a good church-going girl, and it wouldn't have been at all out of the question that they had not had sex yet, that she at least would insist on waiting until they're married.  Who knows, though -- maybe she was really a little tiger under that demure exterior we saw at the wedding.  (A number of girls I knew (not me!) were having sex as teens in 1963, and getting pregnant, too, but that was in the city.)

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #321 on: Feb 09, 2007, 07:54 AM »
Some very small degree of intimacy only, I think.  In those times, and she was probably a good church-going girl, and it wouldn't have been at all out of the question that they had not had sex yet, that she at least would insist on waiting until they're married.  Who knows, though -- maybe she was really a little tiger under that demure exterior we saw at the wedding.  (A number of girls I knew (not me!) were having sex as teens in 1963, and getting pregnant, too, but that was in the city.)

kathy

It did appear that she was madly in love with Ennis, or am I jsut imagining this?  The way she looked at him at the wedding.  In contrast, Ennis looked almost embarassed by all the attention -- as if he hardly knew what to make of it and looked upon marriage as a right of passage.

Both did seem to have very little expereience, although I would agree that perhaps Alma had more of that hidden ardour.  Ennis is equally ambiguous as a heterosexual, IMO.  Even in the first love scene between him and Alma, she literally had to coax  him (hence, my claim that she had more of that hidden ardour), upon which he invariably used her as a surrogate for Jack...


Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #322 on: Feb 09, 2007, 11:34 AM »
I'm not entirely sure that Alma didn't just see Ennis as a possible father of her children and one with whom to settle down - she seemd quite happy to be a drudge at the beginning of their marriage. It was more Ennis's lack of ability to provide than anything else which was a cause of conflict, though of course she may not have wanted to bring up his sexual preferences.

I don't think he was gay in a general sense, but maybe that's because Ennis is such a limited man; he's found Jack but I don;t think would go out looking for a substitute as he didn't see himself as gay.Evidently for 16 years Jack was what he wanted - someone else said he was "gay-for-Jack" and I tend to agree.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #323 on: Feb 09, 2007, 12:01 PM »
I'm not entirely sure that Alma didn't just see Ennis as a possible father of her children and one with whom to settle down - she seemd quite happy to be a drudge at the beginning of their marriage. It was more Ennis's lack of ability to provide than anything else which was a cause of conflict, though of course she may not have wanted to bring up his sexual preferences.

I don't think he was gay in a general sense, but maybe that's because Ennis is such a limited man; he's found Jack but I don;t think would go out looking for a substitute as he didn't see himself as gay.Evidently for 16 years Jack was what he wanted - someone else said he was "gay-for-Jack" and I tend to agree.

So I wonder: would she have stayed married to Ennis (like Lureen with Jack) if he had provided for the family any better -- even after knowing what he was doing with Jack?


Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #324 on: Feb 09, 2007, 01:55 PM »
Yes,given it was the 60s and they lived in a small town in a rural state, I think he may well have done. The job at the supermarket was only a way of increasing the family income - clearly when with Monroe she was happy to have another baby and be a housewife. [I was going to add "Silly girl" but that would be  *o)]

There's also the fact that if Ennis hadn't been leading a second, secret, life, he might have opened up more with her.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #325 on: Feb 09, 2007, 02:40 PM »
From experience with friends, it seems that sexual issues are never discussed openly with their wives.  Ennis was certainly true to form in this regard.  But many of these friends who remained married just led separate lives.  Ennis could have done this had Alma been amenable...

« Last Edit: Feb 12, 2007, 08:29 AM by tpe »

Offline Asali

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #326 on: Feb 10, 2007, 07:18 AM »
I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love or be attracted to a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety? Have you ever considered introducing the dynamics of bi-sexuality into the equation ?
Yes I truly believe that to be the case but then of course if people of the same sex become attracted and labels used, then they would be labelled bisexual. It could be a case that if Ennis had ever even had a fleeting feeling towards another man that he suppressed those thoughts until he met Jack when the feelings were too strong to ignore and he felt he was were he could not be seen, he was safe. Other than for being with Jack he truly identified himself as straight because in his words "I ain't queer".

This is why I dislike labels so much.  We are not a world of homosexuals and heterosexuals..we are a world of human beings and sometimes the lines get crossed.  I don't find it unbelievable in the least that a "heterosexual male" would fall in love with another man...given the right circumstances...I've seen it happen to men as well as women.  Does it cause confusion and anxiety? Of course it does...look what it did to Ennis.  Was ennis gay? If you want to label him gay or not it doesn't seem important to me....he was just a man who happened to fall in love with another man.
Maybe I am simplyfing the matter.  But that is how I feel about it.
You may be simplifying the matter because it is a simple matter, at least for us here.
"People's minds are like parachutes. To function properly they must first be open." - W.G.P.

It use to feel like a mass of dots. But more and more these days, I feel like we're all connected. (Latter Days)

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #327 on: Feb 11, 2007, 03:41 AM »
This is a great site, though most of us probably have seen all these various Ang Lee interviews.  But the first one here, I hadn't seen (David Lamble/claudesplace.com) and Ang talks about the characters, whether they are "gay," etc.  He's so wonderful, and I love hearing him talk, especially about this movie and these characters.  Anyway, putting this link here for the subject matter of "Is Ennis Gay?"  He said, the short story was a mystery [on this subject], and so was the script, but in my mind, they're both gay.  And he talks about it some -- Jack pretty clear, Ennis all "twisted."

(OT:  also, about filming "love scenes." FNIT he said was only one take -- fascinating.  SNIT, three shots -- wide, and two close-ups.  Reunion kiss:  two shots, one from each side.  So that's why we see the pix from different angles than in the movie.  I know, not breaking news, but it was interesting to hear this.)

kathy

http://www.ibloid.com/videos/AngLee.htm
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #328 on: Feb 12, 2007, 08:36 AM »
Thanks Asali and kathy.

It is interesting to contrast Ang Lee's and Jake Gyllenhaal's views as to the sexuality of the characters.  I also recall that Gyllenhaal took some heat when many people chose to interpret what he said more literally that he had intended.  I do believe Ang Lee reacted somewhat to this when he admitted that he thought the characters were gay, when he was asked to react to Gyllenhaal's statement.

I think it is true what Ang Lee noted: that in both short story and screenplay, the nature of their secuality is a mystery.  It is up to each individual to decide for themselves.


Offline monicita

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #329 on: Feb 15, 2007, 08:29 AM »
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.

I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.

Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)

Hi Sprague,

I am so with you about the whole essentialism issue! And I loved your thoughts in the ratdiary. So, when you say that you personally think Ennis and Jack were gay, do you mean that "gay" is a suspect category as such (many people on this forum are fighting being labled, which I can understand) or do you say: Lots of people are gay, but these two weren't? I once posed the question if it is possible to call somebody gay who would be totally unable to embrace the idea. In my opinion Ennis can't be gay, because he only knows being "queer" which is something horrible and terrifying for him. Does being gay mean that you have to WANT to be gay? If I say that Ennis definitely wasn't gay (see above definition) I do say that he had homosexual tendencies, as do most of us. And yes, they were also just two human beings in love  ;)

monicita
Love is a many splendoured thing...