Topic: was ennis gay ?

[ksxks]

Thanks Asali and kathy.

It is interesting to contrast Ang Lee's and Jake Gyllenhaal's views as to the sexuality of the characters.  I also recall that Gyllenhaal took some heat when many people chose to interpret what he said more literally that he had intended.  I do believe Ang Lee reacted somewhat to this when he admitted that he thought the characters were gay, when he was asked to react to Gyllenhaal's statement.

I think it is true what Ang Lee noted: that in both short story and screenplay, the nature of their secuality is a mystery.  It is up to each individual to decide for themselves.

I'm not exactly remembering what Jake said -- can you tell us again, please?  I didn't really get what Ang Lee said, what he was responding to, without knowing what Jake had said.

I, too, think it was purposely left open to our own interpretations as to their "natural" sexuality.  And I personally think they were just men who found feelings within themselves, with each other -- feelings more familiar to Jack than to Ennis, or, interpreted by them differently.

kathy

[lachlan]

I'm afraid I'm a bit new to internet discussions, but I'm an old-timer in relationships. I lived in the Cascade Mts (west of the Rockies) in the '60s and had a very similar relationship to that of Jack and Innes. There was no concept of "gay"; guys often fooled around with one another when they were in a tent. No label was applied to them. Later, studying social anthropology in the mountain ranges of eastern Europe, I encountered many similar relationships - especially amoung herdsmen. Most of them married and had kids and retained the deep friendships with whom they'd formed a sexual bond in their youth. Some languages even have a distinct name for a same-sex friend with whom sex and affection are accepted; but they rarely have any term which describes a person as fixed with a lifelong attraction to the same, and not the opposite, sex. It was Jack's second year on Brokeback Mountain. I figured he'd had some sexual experiences with his partner of the previous year (they were always sent up in pairs). When he first sees Ennis, he checks him out for this possibility. When he seduces him in the tent, he simply introduces him to the mechanics and potential of sex. Ennis is overwhelmed by this as he's been deprived of affection and Jack is overcome with the response; he's deperate for acceptance. Their mutual loneliness creates a love which is confirmed by the sexual bonding. That is precisely what happened to me and I know of many other cases. My reading of Annie Proulx and Larry McMurtry suggests that they are familiar with this phenomenon; known worldwide but seriously misunderstood in Anglo-American society. Lachlan

[tizi17]

lachlan hello!

i'm truly taken by what you have posted here, and also in the "welcome" thread.
this is - for me - some sort of missing link between proulx's story (and especially her description of rural society, and her story why she wrote BBM)
i was always wondering that since it was jack's second summer, he surely knew about these mechanics.
if i may ask two things: what do you mean this is misunderstood, in which way? and second: do you personnally think this kind of long year lasting love was really possible - despite of the character of ennis, anyhow - and would there have been a way for both of them to get together for good, was this something possible?
thank you again for your really interesting post.

tizi

[manhattangirl]

Thanks Lechlan, 

We do here in the States, find all too convenient sometimes to lablel what we don't understand.  Its Sites like this I love, because I reach out and ask questios to the world.   My question is the label "being queer", is one reasons, that Ennis was stunted in mental acceptance of his love for Jack, "I not one, so what  is it I feel for you?"  Could something like that be possible?

[The Artifact]

Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?

For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay.  His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU Tpe.
People who think Ennis isn't gay, in my opinion, lost a good part of complexity of his personality. The inner conflict he lives become less pregnant.

[tpe]

Hi Sprague,

I am so with you about the whole essentialism issue! And I loved your thoughts in the ratdiary. So, when you say that you personally think Ennis and Jack were gay, do you mean that "gay" is a suspect category as such (many people on this forum are fighting being labled, which I can understand) or do you say: Lots of people are gay, but these two weren't? I once posed the question if it is possible to call somebody gay who would be totally unable to embrace the idea. In my opinion Ennis can't be gay, because he only knows being "queer" which is something horrible and terrifying for him. Does being gay mean that you have to WANT to be gay? If I say that Ennis definitely wasn't gay (see above definition) I do say that he had homosexual tendencies, as do most of us. And yes, they were also just two human beings in love 

monicita

Interesting query. 

Personally, I think of gayness as innate, and not something one would want or force upon others.  Not that you can't talk about gayness through social conditioning; nonetheless, there is distinctlion between the tendency to commit homosexual acts (which I agree is widespread, if not universal) and orientation.

I would admit that Ennis had homosexual proclivities.  But I would go further in saying that it is not just a tendency; rather, it was the defining orientation by which he came to define true love and which even his prejudices could not destroy.

[tpe]

I'm not exactly remembering what Jake said -- can you tell us again, please?  I didn't really get what Ang Lee said, what he was responding to, without knowing what Jake had said.

I, too, think it was purposely left open to our own interpretations as to their "natural" sexuality.  And I personally think they were just men who found feelings within themselves, with each other -- feelings more familiar to Jack than to Ennis, or, interpreted by them differently.

kathy

Hello kathy.  I posted the quotes somewhere, but can't find the quotes right now. 

Gyllenhaal was quoted in saying that he thought Ennis and Jack were two straight guys who jaust happened to fall in love with each other.  This raised quite a ruckus in some quarters, and Ang Lee, when asked to comment about this, said something like: I don't know, but they were pretty much gay to me.

It is best to quote them rather than to paraphrase what they said.  That way, there is no misinterpretation when I try to say what they said.

[tpe]

I'm afraid I'm a bit new to internet discussions, but I'm an old-timer in relationships. I lived in the Cascade Mts (west of the Rockies) in the '60s and had a very similar relationship to that of Jack and Innes. There was no concept of "gay"; guys often fooled around with one another when they were in a tent. No label was applied to them. Later, studying social anthropology in the mountain ranges of eastern Europe, I encountered many similar relationships - especially amoung herdsmen. Most of them married and had kids and retained the deep friendships with whom they'd formed a sexual bond in their youth. Some languages even have a distinct name for a same-sex friend with whom sex and affection are accepted; but they rarely have any term which describes a person as fixed with a lifelong attraction to the same, and not the opposite, sex. It was Jack's second year on Brokeback Mountain. I figured he'd had some sexual experiences with his partner of the previous year (they were always sent up in pairs). When he first sees Ennis, he checks him out for this possibility. When he seduces him in the tent, he simply introduces him to the mechanics and potential of sex. Ennis is overwhelmed by this as he's been deprived of affection and Jack is overcome with the response; he's deperate for acceptance. Their mutual loneliness creates a love which is confirmed by the sexual bonding. That is precisely what happened to me and I know of many other cases. My reading of Annie Proulx and Larry McMurtry suggests that they are familiar with this phenomenon; known worldwide but seriously misunderstood in Anglo-American society. Lachlan

Welcome to the forum, lachlan.

Yes, among my older friends -- even in an urban or farm setting -- this type of ambiguity was much more common.  Of course, I found it interesting to note that some of them later turned out straight in the sense that they later seemed to have enjoyed only heterosexual relationships.  Some went on to lead gay lifestyles.  Still others married, had kids, and yet continued to have homosexual relationships.

I think all of us can agree with this: for a man to have sex with another man does not define gayness, in as much as to have sex with a woman does not define straightness, and the ability to have sex with both does not imply bisexuality.  It is not as simple as that.

[tpe]

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU Tpe.
People who think Ennis isn't gay, in my opinion, lost a good part of complexity of his personality. The inner conflict he lives become less pregnant.

I do think that part of the complexity is the inability to accept a core element of one's personality.  This is how I interpreted Annie Proulx's comment of BBM as a study of homophobia.  It is the ultimate study of homophobia: for a homophobe to be in fact homosexual.

[The Artifact]

Personally, I think of gayness as innate, and not something one would want or force upon others.  Not that you can't talk about gayness through social conditioning; nonetheless, there is distinctlion between the tendency to commit homosexual acts (which I agree is widespread, if not universal) and orientation.
I would admit that Ennis had homosexual proclivities.  But I would go further in saying that it is not just a tendency; rather, it was the defining orientation by which he came to define true love and which even his prejudices could not destroy.

I do think that part of the complexity is the inability to accept a core element of one's personality.  This is how I interpreted Annie Proulx's comment of BBM as a study of homophobia.  It is the ultimate study of homophobia: for a homophobe to be in fact homosexual.

Yes! Right words Tpe. You wrote exactly what's my thinking about.
The core of BBM's bigness is just the way the Proulx's tale - and then the film - depict how a man (Ennis) could live his whole life without accepting the truth of his inner being. The way he could approach this truth by experiencing an unexpected and overwelming love for another man (Jack) and, nevertheless, he could reject the chance of make the following steps. The steps which would bring him to become aware of his homosexuality.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.

[Asali]

Yes exactly, remove the labels and it would be even more simple.

[ksxks]

Hello kathy.  I posted the quotes somewhere, but can't find the quotes right now. 

Gyllenhaal was quoted in saying that he thought Ennis and Jack were two straight guys who jaust happened to fall in love with each other.  This raised quite a ruckus in some quarters, and Ang Lee, when asked to comment about this, said something like: I don't know, but they were pretty much gay to me.

It is best to quote them rather than to paraphrase what they said.  That way, there is no misinterpretation when I try to say what they said.

Thanks, tpe.  I recall both comments, now, Jake's and Lee's.  So no worry about paraphrasing.  I'm surprised Jake would think that Jack is straight (and Ennis is just a whole case of his own).  Maybe he meant that they could live stright lives.  Well, lots of gays do that, huh? 

I don't have anything really to base this on, but I think all young people grow up entertaining some thought of same-sex sexuality in some way.  Maybe they hadn't had any actual previous experience.  Or maybe they had -- when a boy, in Ennis's case; and in Jack's case, I tend to think he definitely had had previous sexual experience with males and not that long before.  But having thoughts, and maybe some youthful experience, doesn't make those young people gay.  However, once Ennis and Jack got together, and it was so strong between them, then certainly I could call them gay.  Maybe there's such a thing as "situational gay."  As opposed to them having a preexisting gay condition before they met. 

kathy

[ksxks]

Yes! Right words Tpe. You wrote exactly what's my thinking about.
The core of BBM's bigness is just the way the Proulx's tale - and then the film - depict how a man (Ennis) could live his whole life without accepting the truth of his inner being. The way he could approach this truth by experiencing an unexpected and overwelming love for another man (Jack) and, nevertheless, he could reject the chance of make the following steps. The steps which would bring him to become aware of his homosexuality.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.

Yes, T.A., agreed -- this story has such a deepness and touches so many people because of just that -- the character denying his inner self.  So this story could bring out a lot of things, not just sexuality.  But of course sexuality is the most basic, and is so defining of our world views, not to mention at the base of our emotions.  So this story speaks to us on many levels.

As to what tpe said, about the homophobe being himself homosexual, this seems more common than we would think, doesn't it?  What with "religious" people preaching against but having homosexual relations.  And maybe another example is women who crave sex but only get into dissatisfying -- or worse -- situations with men.  Sexuality is such a strong urge, can seem to make people lose sense.

But back on topic, Ennis...gay...  It seems we get hung on up defining "gay," and that takes us around in circles.  But at the same time, I enjoy this discussion of Ennis's sexuality, and his love-uality.  (I enjoy him in some fanfics where he's the "macho" of the couple, and Jack the sweetie-pie, the romantic, the dresser, lots of "gay" things.  I like where Jack calls him endearments, gives him a Valentine, etc., and Ennis gets all uptight about it...but secretly likes it.  But I digress, into the sweetness and light of fic-canon fic, where Ennis finally does come around to accepting and loving himself, with Jack's inimitable ways bringing that about.)

Speaking of macho, I always like that Heath said that the "gay cowboy" was the most masculine role he'd yet played.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

[quote author=The Artifact link=topic=832.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.
[/quote]

I hope this question isn't silly:

Could Ennis subconsciouly be aware of  his homosexuality, but consciously couldn't accept it.  But repeatly over twenty years, meet with Jack, sleep with him, make love to him.  Then disavow the relationship later.  couldn't that make you a little nuts?   

Was that the breakdown Ennis had when he confess to Jack, that he couldn't stand it anymore at the final confrontation? 

[Asali]

I hope this question isn't silly:

Could Ennis subconsciouly be aware of  his homosexuality, but consciously couldn't accept it. But repeatly over twenty years, meet with Jack, sleep with him, make love to him. Then disavow the relationship later.  couldn't that make you a little nuts?   

Was that the breakdown Ennis had when he confess to Jack, that he couldn't stand it anymore at the final confrontation? 

That is not a silly question. I believe that what you say is most definitely likely to be the case with Ennis. It may not make you nuts but certainly confused within yourself. It could have something to do with the final confrontation I suppose.

[ksxks]

That's a good point, manhattangirl, that Ennis's breakdown in the "confrontation scene" could certainly have to do with the stress of living like that for 20 years -- loving Jack fully when with him, and then going back to the depressing real life where he couldn't acknowledge it in any way, barely to himself.  His words there were about his being "nowhere, got nothing" or whatever, but he probably didn't exactly know how to say what it really was about.  Not only just that he hadn't gotten on with his life because of wanting to be free to see Jack, but the whole thing, as you said, of that schizo life of not acknowledging who he was.  But once in Jack's arms, saying that he can't stand it anymore, that surely would apply to not being able to stand the duality he was living that couldn't be reconciled.  If only he'd let Jack really help him come to terms with it all...they would have indeed been able to have a good life from then on.

kathy

[tpe]

Yes! Right words Tpe. You wrote exactly what's my thinking about.
The core of BBM's bigness is just the way the Proulx's tale - and then the film - depict how a man (Ennis) could live his whole life without accepting the truth of his inner being. The way he could approach this truth by experiencing an unexpected and overwelming love for another man (Jack) and, nevertheless, he could reject the chance of make the following steps. The steps which would bring him to become aware of his homosexuality.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.

The Artifact , I must admit that this was also how I viewed it, although I will not insist on this interpretation.  What drew me to this interpretation is the absolute irony of it all -- an irony that does not lack pathos, in my opinion.  Sexuality is complex in and of itself, but one's acceptance or rejection of it is perhaps the most difficult aspect.

I agree that IMO, gayness is not chosen.  I remember a nice short film about an adolescent's discovery of his own gayness, and it ends when the beloved tells him (in a dialogue replete with double meanings): "Consider it a gift."

[tpe]

There you have it !!!

Yes exactly, remove the labels and it would be even more simple.

HiAltShag and Asali, I certainly won't insist that the entire question of Ennis's sexuality has one definitive answer.  We have our own ideas about this fascinating topic.  Whether simple or complex, I think we all agree that discussing it goes a long way in understanding Ennis's inner torment.

[tpe]

Thanks, tpe.  I recall both comments, now, Jake's and Lee's.  So no worry about paraphrasing.  I'm surprised Jake would think that Jack is straight (and Ennis is just a whole case of his own).  Maybe he meant that they could live stright lives.  Well, lots of gays do that, huh? 

I don't have anything really to base this on, but I think all young people grow up entertaining some thought of same-sex sexuality in some way.  Maybe they hadn't had any actual previous experience.  Or maybe they had -- when a boy, in Ennis's case; and in Jack's case, I tend to think he definitely had had previous sexual experience with males and not that long before.  But having thoughts, and maybe some youthful experience, doesn't make those young people gay.  However, once Ennis and Jack got together, and it was so strong between them, then certainly I could call them gay.  Maybe there's such a thing as "situational gay."  As opposed to them having a preexisting gay condition before they met. 

kathy

Hello kathy.  I personally thought Gyllenhaal approached the question the way he and Ledger approached the creation of the film characters.  After all, both of them are straight, and they approached the task of creating Ennis and Jack from this inescapable vantage point. 

I do agree with you about young people at some point entertaining some thought of same-sex sexuality.  I know that in my case, I had considered both this and heterosexuality on equal footing at some early point in time.

I am intrigued by the idea of "situational" sexuality. It suggests perhaps that people can go whichever way when the conditions are right.  Not wanting to be pseudo-scientific about this, but quite intriguing nonetheless...

[tpe]

OT: Thanks friends for the wonderful posts and discussions in this thread.  Keep it coming!

[lachlan]

Having been brought up in a mountain community, I think that virtually all of the boys experimented sexually with one another, but most of them had or soon developed a desire for females which over-rode their desire for male sex. "Gayness" is far too often interpretted as a lack of desire for the opposite sex. When I lived, in later years, in different cultures (still in fairly remote mountain ranges) I found that sex-play among boys was acknowledged as part of youth; after all, there was no contraception available and pregancy meant marriage. The fact that a boy had engaged in sexual activities or relationships withother boys did not tar him with any label or suggest that he was less of a man. Since then I have not been part of a "gay scene", and haven't felt easy on the occasions that I've encountered one. However, I have had numerous sexual experiences with other males. The overwhelming majority of these were with men who were primarily attracted to females but enjoyed occasional male-male play, so long as it did not label them as "gay"; to them this would simply imply that they could not score with a woman when the opportunity arose. In societies and languages with no such term as "gay" (I speak several which have no equivalent word; English didn't have one until modern times), it's no problem. Jack's trip to Mexico (which involved a prostitute in the film but, significantly, not in the story) could well be an allusion to the fact that in '60s USA, Mexican males were reputed to be willing to have a session with other males without getting ostracised with a label such as "queer". I can remember jokes told in the '60s about Mexicans as ready to go with either sex.

As I wrote on another thread or forum, 1963 was Jack's second year on the mountain and I figure he must have had some hanky-panky with whoever was his partner during the first summer. Therefore, he probably assumes it's on the cards for him to get into the sack with Ennis eventually. But I don't think Jack would ever allow himself to be called "queer", so long as he was able and willing to do the same with a woman. That is a very, very common perception among rural males even today; I can vouch for that!

[tpe]

Having been brought up in a mountain community, I think that virtually all of the boys experimented sexually with one another, but most of them had or soon developed a desire for females which over-rode their desire for male sex. "Gayness" is far too often interpretted as a lack of desire for the opposite sex. When I lived, in later years, in different cultures (still in fairly remote mountain ranges) I found that sex-play among boys was acknowledged as part of youth; after all, there was no contraception available and pregancy meant marriage. The fact that a boy had engaged in sexual activities or relationships withother boys did not tar him with any label or suggest that he was less of a man. Since then I have not been part of a "gay scene", and haven't felt easy on the occasions that I've encountered one. However, I have had numerous sexual experiences with other males. The overwhelming majority of these were with men who were primarily attracted to females but enjoyed occasional male-male play, so long as it did not label them as "gay"; to them this would simply imply that they could not score with a woman when the opportunity arose. In societies and languages with no such term as "gay" (I speak several which have no equivalent word; English didn't have one until modern times), it's no problem. Jack's trip to Mexico (which involved a prostitute in the film but, significantly, not in the story) could well be an allusion to the fact that in '60s USA, Mexican males were reputed to be willing to have a session with other males without getting ostracised with a label such as "queer". I can remember jokes told in the '60s about Mexicans as ready to go with either sex.

As I wrote on another thread or forum, 1963 was Jack's second year on the mountain and I figure he must have had some hanky-panky with whoever was his partner during the first summer. Therefore, he probably assumes it's on the cards for him to get into the sack with Ennis eventually. But I don't think Jack would ever allow himself to be called "queer", so long as he was able and willing to do the same with a woman. That is a very, very common perception among rural males even today; I can vouch for that!

In much older cultures, sexual play between persons of the same sex can be quite common, if not outwardly accepted.  I find it interesting nonetheless that even in those cultures, the attraction can take on various levels of exclusiveness.

It is right to distinguish between various forms of same-sex interaction with the concept of gayness.  As in Greek and Roman antiquity, as well as in East Asian cultures, one does not totally encompass the other, even if they do overlap in many instances.  But to be sure, all these cultures did distinguish between various manifestations of same-sex relationships and recognized a spectrum that best represented specific types.

The concept of gayness is widely thought of as a product of a specific time and culture.  This is not quite accurate, as there has never been a lack of widespread, culturally diverse, and ancient antecedents.  This points to the fact that the classification is not artificial; rather, it best describes a certain line in the spectrum of human sexuality that is as natural as any other.

[Brokeback_1]

It's all very interesting. Yet we are not talking about 2 herdsmen in Steirmark or the Transylvanian Alps, we're talking about 2 19 year old doofus's in 1963 Wyoming. To them, I'd think you would need to apply the standards of their own culture, one where M/M activities as boys were prevalent and simply never discussed. So there is that. Then we come to the odious labels. Most of them suck. Yet if you apply certain criteria which every bi male I know uses, these 2 come out gay as a picnic basket.

What does bisexual actually mean? Most people called bisexual are either gay males 'coming out' or hetero males who are open and curious. OK, the most used label says they can function sexually with either sex. But does that describe what it actually is? No.

Being truly bisexual has one criteria you cannot get rid of: what someone on another forum called 'the ability to forge that special bond' between two people regardless of their gender. If you can fall in love deeply with a woman, and have the ability to fall in love just as deeply with a man, then you are bi. If you can't you aren't. Everything else is a smokescreen of BS.

Could Ennis Delmar, did Ennis Delmar, have the ability to love Alma as deeply as he loved Jack? No, in neither the book nor the film. The director and writers put in the character of Cassie to point up that Ennis was incapable of falling in love with a woman who was, for all intents and purposes, a female Jack.

Until I used the standard  the real bi men as opposed to the narcissistic omnivores or the gay men coming out used  and applied that standard to J&E, yeah they could be seen as bi. Once that was used, no way, they;'re gay as they come, they can't and don't have the ability to form a deep love with a woman.

[manhattangirl]

Brokeback_1: 

I agree with what you've posted,  my problem with the previous posts by tpe and lachlan, (very interesting) , deals with the role of woman.  The woman seem to be a touchstone for a man to prove he's not "gay" to the world, " See I have a woman, who has my children, I'm just like you".  if that's the case , the woman is a "beard", and  the man can continue his "male to male" romps every now and then, secure in his self image.    If you think that's there no consequences to that.  Look to the story of Ennis and Jack, and then look at Alma and Lureen, I saw no contentment in these woman who were just spectators in this long running affair.

As I previously stated to another member in this forum,  Ennis showed indifference  to Alma, It  may not been intentional, but something thats nonetheless  ate away at the marriage, which was only reinforced by his relationship with Cassie, the poor girl didn't stand a chance.    In the case of Jack and Lureen, you saw it in Lureen restlessness, and discontentment.   

tpe and lanchlan:   if I misunderstood your posts my apologies, but  is there a "true sexual self", not matter if  you're homosexual or heterosexual, or  just doing what comes easy? 

[tpe]

It's all very interesting. Yet we are not talking about 2 herdsmen in Steirmark or the Transylvanian Alps, we're talking about 2 19 year old doofus's in 1963 Wyoming. To them, I'd think you would need to apply the standards of their own culture, one where M/M activities as boys were prevalent and simply never discussed. So there is that. Then we come to the odious labels. Most of them suck. Yet if you apply certain criteria which every bi male I know uses, these 2 come out gay as a picnic basket.

What does bisexual actually mean? Most people called bisexual are either gay males 'coming out' or hetero males who are open and curious. OK, the most used label says they can function sexually with either sex. But does that describe what it actually is? No.

Being truly bisexual has one criteria you cannot get rid of: what someone on another forum called 'the ability to forge that special bond' between two people regardless of their gender. If you can fall in love deeply with a woman, and have the ability to fall in love just as deeply with a man, then you are bi. If you can't you aren't. Everything else is a smokescreen of BS.

Could Ennis Delmar, did Ennis Delmar, have the ability to love Alma as deeply as he loved Jack? No, in neither the book nor the film. The director and writers put in the character of Cassie to point up that Ennis was incapable of falling in love with a woman who was, for all intents and purposes, a female Jack.

Until I used the standard  the real bi men as opposed to the narcissistic omnivores or the gay men coming out used  and applied that standard to J&E, yeah they could be seen as bi. Once that was used, no way, they;'re gay as they come, they can't and don't have the ability to form a deep love with a woman.

Hello Brokeback_1.

I do see your point, and as I had said in the last post, "gayness" is certainly just as valid a classification of sexual identity as any other.  Personally, I do think Ennis was gay, although I grant that other interpretations are also valid.

As for bisexuality, I don't really know how rare or prevalent true bisexuality is, although I grant that I know two or three people in my circle of acquaintances who seem to be genuine bisexuals (two of them having established relationships with a man and a woman all at the same time, and one who actually goes in phases, selecting a male partner, and then moving on to a female one).

I do agree that distinguishing true bisexuality is very difficult, and I am sure it was even more difiicult a few decades ago when gay men found it expedient to marry in order to look normal in the eyes of society.  I tend to be liberal in my outlook, and give a person claiming bisexuality the benefit of the doubt.  Although I myself had never really felt a physical attraction for a woman, I have indeed seen enough to say that what is always true for me is not necessarily true in the wide world out there.  Though our world is in many ways removed from that of Ennis's, it nonetheless remains an interesting one.

[tpe]

Brokeback_1: 

I agree with what you've posted,  my problem with the previous posts by tpe and lachlan, (very interesting) , deals with the role of woman.  The woman seem to be a touchstone for a man to prove he's not "gay" to the world, " See I have a woman, who has my children, I'm just like you".  if that's the case , the woman is a "beard", and  the man can continue his "male to male" romps every now and then, secure in his self image.    If you think that's there no consequences to that.  Look to the story of Ennis and Jack, and then look at Alma and Lureen, I saw no contentment in these woman who were just spectators in this long running affair.

As I previously stated to another member in this forum,  Ennis showed indifference  to Alma, It  may not been intentional, but something thats nonetheless  ate away at the marriage, which was only reinforced by his relationship with Cassie, the poor girl didn't stand a chance.    In the case of Jack and Lureen, you saw it in Lureen restlessness, and discontentment.   

tpe and lanchlan:   if I misunderstood your posts my apologies, but  is there a "true sexual self", not matter if  you're homosexual or heterosexual, or  just doing what comes easy? 

Hello manhattangirl.  Yes, I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  In my response to lanchlan, I had stated that the concept of gayness is NOT artificial, and that there is such a thing as sexual identity, and that this identity is NOT a discrete spectrum; rather, it is a continuous one.

For every person, there must be a workable definition of a "true sexual self", although what I claimed all along is that the choices are not just being gay or straight.  Typically, only the person really knows his or her own true sexual identity; nonetheless, owing to diverse personal and societal issues, many people have had and continue to have problems recognizing and accepting their sexual nature.

Can someone know of another person's sexual identity?  One can try, as in what we are trying to do in the case of Ennis.  But determining this from the outside is never a simple thing.  As I said:

I think all of us can agree with this: for a man to have sex with another man does not define gayness, in as much as to have sex with a woman does not define straightness, and the ability to have sex with both does not imply bisexuality.  It is not as simple as that.

[ksxks]

Brokeback_1, I think one thing you said is at the root of the gay-or-not question, at least in my thinking.  And that is when you spoke of love, not sex.  I can't prove it, but I tend to think most everyone could be sexual with a person of the opposite sex.  But deeply loving someone as your other half, wanting to build a life together -- if that person is your same sex, then I guess you are "gay."

In fact, I often bristle at the very bases of the terms heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual.  I think it's about so much more than sex.  Granted, sexual feelings are at the root of so much of human experience, but that's just not all of it.  I used to say I can be heterosexual, but I'm homoemotional.  (I used to say.  Now I don't much care to say anything.  But if I were to say, I would say I'm a celibate bisexual.)

kathy

[Brokeback_1]

I hated being labeled kathy, just hated it. When a lot of gay men 'labeled' it was along the lines of get-out-of-the-closet and admit you're a homo. When straight men did it, you were a half or entirely a fag.  Every once in a while somebody would know exactly what you were, which was usually 100% wrong. Every once in a longer while you would meet a person, usually male, who would say hey I know what you mean....and they were right.

LOL

I'm glad you agree: it's about who you can love deeply, who you can form that bond with.

[manhattangirl]

tpe,

 My apologies.  The question of one's sexual identity is indeed a solitary journey, I was thinking in the context of the film, that both Alma and Lureen, each had to search for their identity as women.  We saw what different roads each woman took.  In the  wake of Jack and Ennis love was not only a search for one's true sexual self, but a search of one's identity in and of itself.   I really hope I'm making sense.

[tpe]

tpe,

 My apologies.  The question of one's sexual identity is indeed a solitary journey, I was thinking in the context of the film, that both Alma and Lureen, each had to search for their identity as women.  We saw what different roads each woman took.  In the  wake of Jack and Ennis love was not only a search for one's true sexual self, but a search of one's identity in and of itself.   I really hope I'm making sense.

Hello manhattangirl.  No need to apologize here.

The subject you bring up seems to be larger than the current topic of this thread.  Would you want to start a new thread dealing with the search for true sexual identity among the characters in BBM (specifically, regarding Alma and Lureen)? It will be a good discussion.