Topic: was ennis gay ?

[myprivatejack]

I agree that,although Ennis knew quite early what he felt for Jack-perhaps he didn´t know what name had this feeling-, he knew that was something similar to Earl and Ritchie situation.And that this situation and its end carried him to a mix of opossed feelings that perhaps he had much before his knowledge of Jack in a biblical sense...But I also keep on saying that this sad story of his chilhood made him to be atracted and at the same time,repelled for this kind of relationship;he knew that there was "another kind of love" but inmediately he joined with punishment and even death.IMO,I repite,Ennis could have pefectly pass I don´t know if the rest of his life,but a great part of it,with this semi-slept tendences-if he hadn´t met Jack.perhaps another man would have played the same rol-.I don´t know if this is being gay or,at least,feeling something for an only same-sex person-a case that could be sometimes...-.

[tpe]

Whatever latent feelings Ennis had for Jack before the FNIT, it was probably amalgamated with the sense of loneliness that pervaded him.  The need for companionship is usually confused sometimes for deeper feelings within, no?  People sometimes justify this in order not to feel so vulnerable.  And I think this was the case with Ennis.  He probably justified his growing feelings for Jack in a way that harkened back to his own isolation and his need to be loved.

[myprivatejack]

Whatever latent feelings Ennis had for Jack before the FNIT, it was probably amalgamated with the sense of loneliness that pervaded him.  The need for companionship is usually confused sometimes for deeper feelings within, no?  People sometimes justify this in order not to feel so vulnerable.  And I think this was the case with Ennis.  He probably justified his growing feelings for Jack in a way that harkened back to his own isolation and his need to be loved.

Yes,sometimes we love or even fall in love with someone who gives us company and above all,who listens to us when we need to.Perhaps what happenned was only that Jack arrived in the right moment of Ennis vulnerability.

[babytammy7]

Amazing post Tony!!! Bravo!! I'm dying to know what Andrew, Thomas and the other Brokies have to say!!!

[Tony]

      Thanks, BabyTammy, but I had second thoughts about the post and deleted it.  Didn't want to leave your post hanging, inexplicably,
so, explained why nothing is there.  I really don't feel up to getting into unusual territory---it's just not a good idea.  But......thanks. Tony.

[babytammy7]

I think that Brokies have something to say about your theory......It was a real good one; It was Ennis in pure state.....

But whatever you do is fine for me; I respect your decisions friend!!!  (but I'll be waiting until you post that theory again.....  )

[tpe]

Yes,sometimes we love or even fall in love with someone who gives us company and above all,who listens to us when we need to.Perhaps what happenned was only that Jack arrived in the right moment of Ennis vulnerability.

Or perhaps it was meant to be.    I believe in fate.  I would even go so far as to say that Ennis was probably looking for Jack all his life -- you know how some of us are very fortunate to connect with an ideal, even if we thought that this was possible only in dreams. 

We can disarm the question of Ennis's gayness by choosing to agree that Ennis was predisposed to love someone like Jack.  It wasn't his choice entirely -- at least not consciously.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you,as always.But IMO the core of the question would be if it´s necessary to put labels to people´s most intimate feelings and to moral,sexual or emotional issues as we do nowadays,or at least in the measure we do it.Everybody could really fall in love with a same sex person,if he or she arrives in the right moment,in the right place...and if that person answers to the ideal we have.But only learned culture and moral oblige us to hide these sensations,even to ourselves.

[jackster]

Endlessly fascinating to read everyones ideas on this subject. I recently listened to Annie Proulx's radio interview of Jan 19, 2006 (almost two years ago!) and she talks about Ennis's sexuality and what she was trying to accomplish in the SS, and it's pretty much what we all seem to say. She says she tried to show the sliding scale of human sexuality, it's not just black or white but mostly gray, which is certainly where Ennis falls. As you say MPJ it seems almost incidental that Jack was a man, a woman with the same personality characteristics and warmth MAY have been able to achieve the same results with Ennis.

Annie's worthwhile interview can be found at:

http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw060119annie_proulx

What a wonderful person she sounds to be, how I would love to have coffee with her someday (in my dreams).

[Tony]

   Jackster--that was one heck of an interview, and presents a dilemma, because it covers so very much, it doesn't fit into a single thread.
But very definitely, this interview did NOT define either of the ranch hands (she makes it clear they were not cowboys) as gay, and she spoke of
sliding scales of sexuality and areas of gray.  And there was so very much we have struggled to understand, and it was already there in this
very early resource.
   She mentions the concept of the wormhole (in physics) and says BBM was like that-the two entered one way and exited another.  She also
said she wanted that knock-down rare love and the universality of love.  I feel every single post I have made in this forum can now be defended
better and am very sorry if that sounds bad, but it's like she's bailed me out of my more difficult statements.
  Including that the characters can take on a life of their own.  She said they did. And she said it was like a strange hand came from heaven
and was guiding her pen.  And she said, she couldn't "kill them off" in the sense of discarding them, when done.  Also, she acknowledged
the writer's subconscious, when she said Heath Ledger had portayed Ennis in ways that had been in her mind and yet never had come out.
  Very important-she said if it was just sex---there was no story.  Thank you, Jackster, for the best damned resource I have come across yet.
Any other statements she may have made at other times, I think may have been wobbling.  Here, there is no gay or straight, just mixed-up
youths who go into a gray zone, undefined, sexually, and (here, my attaching her other sentences), the knock-down love that could happen
to anyone.  Universality of Love, labels not accurate, transformation on the mountain, all there-the issues we have been struggling with.
   Oh, yeah.....she has one beautiful voice.  I could fall in love with that voice.  And here, I had thought she was a grump.
Jackster-----we all owe you one on this.

[Asali]

I agree with you,as always.But IMO the core of the question would be if it´s necessary to put labels to people´s most intimate feelings and to moral,sexual or emotional issues as we do nowadays,or at least in the measure we do it.Everybody could really fall in love with a same sex person,if he or she arrives in the right moment,in the right place...and if that person answers to the ideal we have.But only learned culture and moral oblige us to hide these sensations,even to ourselves.

Totally agree with post, I will comment briefly on the three parts of your posts (imo) Labels - not necessary, fall in love with same sex - yeah for sure, learned culture/hiding these sensations - yep, even to ourselves.

[jackster]

Gosh Tony, my pleasure for sure.
I'm amused by your comment 'bout her being a grump, I bet most "mature" (i.e. older) folks who live in Wyoming for a while probably seem this way to many. The raw reality of the place must strip off a lot a finish and what you're left with is pretty rough sometimes, as her other stories attest to. In some ways I think maybe she secretly aspired to become one of those damn characters from Bad Dirt or sumthin'.

I really liked the wormhole thing too. I think you and LC have been discussing some far-out dimensions in the Synchronicity thread, seems to verge on wormhole stuff. Plus "wormhole" has a kinda' nasty somewhat sexual ring to it (guess I got a dirty mind). Also smiled at her statement 'bout everybody sees the "hats and boots" and says oh yeah, cowboys! Nope, they're ranch hands, sheepherders, bottom of the ladder. Anyway, glad you liked it, how wonderful an age when we get to sit and quietly listen to a simple genius talk in our own living rooms.

[lancecowboy]

Endlessly fascinating to read everyones ideas on this subject. I recently listened to Annie Proulx's radio interview of Jan 19, 2006 (almost two years ago!) and she talks about Ennis's sexuality and what she was trying to accomplish in the SS, and it's pretty much what we all seem to say. She says she tried to show the sliding scale of human sexuality, it's not just black or white but mostly gray, which is certainly where Ennis falls. As you say MPJ it seems almost incidental that Jack was a man, a woman with the same personality characteristics and warmth MAY have been able to achieve the same results with Ennis.

Annie's worthwhile interview can be found at:

http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw060119annie_proulx

What a wonderful person she sounds to be, how I would love to have coffee with her someday (in my dreams).

Thanks for the reference Jackster. I tried it but it gave me a "resource not found error". Perhaps the file got deleted or moved. Fortunately, Tony gave a fairly long summary. I trust his usually carefulness gave a complete summary. 

   Jackster--that was one heck of an interview, and presents a dilemma, because it covers so very much, it doesn't fit into a single thread.
But very definitely, this interview did NOT define either of the ranch hands (she makes it clear they were not cowboys) as gay, and she spoke of
sliding scales of sexuality and areas of gray.  And there was so very much we have struggled to understand, and it was already there in this
very early resource.
   She mentions the concept of the wormhole (in physics) and says BBM was like that-the two entered one way and exited another.  [...]
  Including that the characters can take on a life of their own.  She said they did. And she said it was like a strange hand came from heaven and was guiding her pen.  And she said, she couldn't "kill them off" in the sense of discarding them, when done.  Also, she acknowledged
the writer's subconscious, when she said Heath Ledger had portayed Ennis in ways that had been in her mind and yet never had come out.
  Very important-she said if it was just sex---there was no story.  Thank you, Jackster, for the best damned resource I have come across yet.
[...]
Jackster-----we all owe you one on this.

I love the idea of Annie using wormhole to describe what happened to Ennis and Jack on Brokeback Mountain. Jackster's crowding me in the gutter notwithstanding  , the wormhole is a place where the ordinary laws of physics do not apply. And the gray area that is discussed here can be the probabilistic wave function of human sexuality. It all depends on the circumstances and how the person is loved, before the sexuality manifest itself one way or another, or both. Nothing is deterministic.

Also, I love Annie's persistence to remind us that the greatest love story is about two lowly unattractive (in the original short story) ranch hands sheep herders. Not the Marlboro men. She is saying that love, can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. It is a force of nature, not a manufactured product from Hollywood. Having said that, she also admits the triumph of Brokeback Mountain, when Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, James Schamus, Ang Lee, and Heath Ledger went beyond the short story to bring forth Ennis Del Mar. She is an amazing woman.

And, finally, I wonder, what it must have been like, to write the short story, when "a strange hand from heaven came down to guide her pen". It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.

Thanks, Jackster.

 

[manhattangirl]

I may get grief for this, but there is a almost Tennessee Williams sense to  the story.   The character of Brick and his friendship with Skipper, in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof".  Brick and Skipper complete opposite of Jack and Ennis, but basically dealing with same thing a friendship that unexpectedly turns into a need for each other.  It left both Ennis and Brick dealing consequences when their friend are suddenly taken away from them, guilt and acceptance.   

Both men feared being labeled, but Ennis consummated his love, wheres Brick turns away from it.  The sliding scale of sexuality can be so delicate,  so unexpected either succumb to it , or desperately replace the need, in Brick's case he drank waiting for the "click".   Ennis with  "out in the middle of nowhere", where he stayed most of his life.   Mendacity, now I understand how it plays a part in both stories. 

Am I making any kind of sense to you?

[babytammy7]

Also, I love Annie's persistence to remind us that the greatest love story is about two lowly unattractive (in the original short story) ranch hands sheep herders. Not the Marlboro men. She is saying that love, can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. It is a force of nature, not a manufactured product from Hollywood.

I agree 200% with this!!! Beautifully written Andrew!!!     That's how it truly was!!! They were regular guys with their faults and virtues that were madly in love; not Marlboro men, not super heros. And of course BBM is a touching love story beyond beautiful, not a gay cowboy film. It was about love not about humans' sexual condition.

[lancecowboy]

I may get grief for this, but there is a almost Tennessee Williams sense to  the story.   The character of Brick and his friendship with Skipper, in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof".  Brick and Skipper complete opposite of Jack and Ennis, but basically dealing with same thing a friendship that unexpectedly turns into a need for each other.  It left both Ennis and Brick dealing consequences when their friend are suddenly taken away from them, guilt and acceptance.   

Both men feared being labeled, but Ennis consummated his love, wheres Brick turns away from it.  The sliding scale of sexuality can be so delicate,  so unexpected either succumb to it , or desperately replace the need, in Brick's case he drank waiting for the "click".   Ennis with  "out in the middle of nowhere", where he stayed most of his life.   Mendacity, now I understand how it plays a part in both stories. 

Am I making any kind of sense to you?

Yup. You always make sense, manhattangirl, and more than that, you always illuminate the dark areas in my mind, with insights I never thought of.

Mendacity indeed. Your little tale about Tennessee Williams "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" is so perfect. It reminds me of Jack's drinking, and the sound bite phrases from the trailer, the lies we have to tell... When Ennis told his first lie to Alma, about Jack being a fishing buddy...the chord that sound was exactly the same one as the first chord in the movie, when the truck came down the road to Signal. The whole movie is about dealing with love, whether truthfully as Jack hoped to do with Ennis, or mendaciously as Ennis did, and as Jack did with Lureen.

Living Brokeback Mountain is to face the truth.

[ragtimecowboy]

Good point, stacp. Ennis wouldn't have fantasies about other men because that would be a "queer" thing to do and he isn't queer in his own mind. I think  too he's a faithful sort of guy - he was engaged to Alma before he met Jack and stays with her despite everything - she's the one who leaves him. And he's faithful to Jack in the sense that he's never involved with another man, and doesn't apparently get far with Cassie.

  Ennis was basically in self-denial. He married Alma out of his sense of duty to what was socially expected all the while hating himself knowing that in his heart it was Jack, a man, that he truly loved. No he wouldn't leave Alma because that would be shirking his duty. His marriage was a loveless sham and basically passionless. Only Jack could set him on fire. He wasn't interested in Cassie other than for freindship.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I have enjoyed reading some of the recent posts on this thread.  In my mind I have probably wavered back and forth between Ennis being gay or str8 and in love with Jack.  I'm not sure if I will draw a final conclusion anytime soon.  One thing is for certain...I have no doubts about his devotion to Jack.  Ennis did not seek companionship from another man.  As stated earlier, Jack was the only man...person with whom he felt alive.

[ksxks]

...
I think your absolutely right, Ennis's father planted the seeds, or at least watered them, by making such a big deal about E & R and this male relationship. It allowed Ennis to realize his feelings in way that he may never had achieved without this gruesome introduction, of course it also tied his inner self into an incredibly tight knot. A knot that only Jack Twist could then undo.

I love this discussion, factoring in Ennis's dad's attitude toward Rich and Earl into Ennis's early development.  It might have been very different on Brokeback if he had developed no negative connotation about men together when he was young.  Assuming he didn't have "gay" feelings from a young age, if he had learned about homosexuality gradually as a teen, as does seem to be most common, and considered himself straight, then who knows how he might have reacted to Jack's coming on to him.

I just love what I bolded, what you said, Jackster.  He was indeed all tied up inside...until Jack.  Actually, until after Jack was gone.

kathy

[ksxks]

Ditto Tony, GREAT post Ain'tfoolin.

I am continually amazed at how this short story and unpretentious film can ignite such intelligent and thought provoking discussions about that most basic, yet complex of human emotions, LOVE.

What was Ennis thinking while sitting on that log?
Am I queer?
Do I love Jack?
Does he hate me?
Does he love me?
What do I do?
What am I feeling?

How many gay men (and women) have struggled with these same questions and answers.

Love this, jackster, the musings of Ennis outside the tent.  I would also add that he would be thinking about the fact that he if he goes in there, then it was not just a one-time thing (FNIT).  What does it mean if I go in there and we have sex?  I can't say it was just a drunken act.  Perhaps he was also wondering if he would actually know what to do (since he's in his right mind this night, not drunk).  He might be wondering if Jack would want to f*ck him, and might be nervous about that...  He did go in there and let Jack take the lead, so perhaps he was open to letting Jack do whatever he wanted to do...and anyway, we don't know what went on that night...

kathy

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Love this, jackster, the musings of Ennis outside the tent.  I would also add that he would be thinking about the fact that he if he goes in there, then it was not just a one-time thing (FNIT).  What does it mean if I go in there and we have sex?  I can't say it was just a drunken act.  Perhaps he was also wondering if he would actually know what to do (since he's in his right mind this night, not drunk).  He might be wondering if Jack would want to f*ck him, and might be nervous about that...  He did go in there and let Jack take the lead, so perhaps he was open to letting Jack do whatever he wanted to do...and anyway, we don't know what went on that night...

Very interesting discussion here.  One thing is for certain...it was obvious Ennis was a man wrestling with a lot of questions.  I guess he decided to seek answers later because his desire to be with Jack put aside those questions.

[ksxks]

Jackster's signature made me think of something.  ...we get to drinking and talking and all...[/]

Ennis says this to Alma as he's leaving with Jack, but whats odd about it is, I'm sure he and Alma never "get to talking." 

In line with what we've been talking about here, whether Ennis was inclined to ever act on any sexual feelings toward men, it was a sweet camaraderie he found with Jack, developing into love.  My heart always just swells for Ennis when I think of him finding this man who he could talk to, who really cared about him.  Maybe he just didn't have any real friends when younger (though why wouldn't he have?) and his brother was too much older maybe for them to have heart-to-heart talks, etc.  Maybe, he had confused feelings ever since the Rich and Earl incident, and was afraid to reveal too much of himself.  Besides being just a naturally keep-to-himself boy and young man.

So, it was certainly love, if not homosexuality.  Some "gay" people could love someone of the same gender and it not be sexual.  But I guess that would be "homoemotional," not "homosexual."  Gladly, they were randy, hormonal young men, and sex did enter into the picture...

kathy

[tpe]

I may get grief for this, but there is a almost Tennessee Williams sense to  the story.   The character of Brick and his friendship with Skipper, in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof".  Brick and Skipper complete opposite of Jack and Ennis, but basically dealing with same thing a friendship that unexpectedly turns into a need for each other.  It left both Ennis and Brick dealing consequences when their friend are suddenly taken away from them, guilt and acceptance.   

Both men feared being labeled, but Ennis consummated his love, wheres Brick turns away from it.  The sliding scale of sexuality can be so delicate,  so unexpected either succumb to it , or desperately replace the need, in Brick's case he drank waiting for the "click".   Ennis with  "out in the middle of nowhere", where he stayed most of his life.   Mendacity, now I understand how it plays a part in both stories. 

Am I making any kind of sense to you?

Yes, what you say makes sense to me.

[tpe]

I love this discussion, factoring in Ennis's dad's attitude toward Rich and Earl into Ennis's early development.  It might have been very different on Brokeback if he had developed no negative connotation about men together when he was young.  Assuming he didn't have "gay" feelings from a young age, if he had learned about homosexuality gradually as a teen, as does seem to be most common, and considered himself straight, then who knows how he might have reacted to Jack's coming on to him.

I just love what I bolded, what you said, Jackster.  He was indeed all tied up inside...until Jack.  Actually, until after Jack was gone.

kathy

The knot is an apt metaphor -- even for Ennis's sexuality.  Like Gordian's, perhaps the best solution is through it.

[tpe]

So, it was certainly love, if not homosexuality.  Some "gay" people could love someone of the same gender and it not be sexual.  But I guess that would be "homoemotional," not "homosexual."  Gladly, they were randy, hormonal young men, and sex did enter into the picture...

kathy

This could be so difficult to find these days, especially when we talk about openly gay young men in the cities. 

In the case of Ennis and Jack, I do think that their love was homoemotional as much as it would be considered homosexual.

[myprivatejack]

This could be so difficult to find these days, especially when we talk about openly gay young men in the cities. 

In the case of Ennis and Jack, I do think that their love was homoemotional as much as it would be considered homosexual.

Completely agree.As a friend of mine said,the focus is not on sex;this is only a way to love and be loved.

[tpe]

Completely agree.As a friend of mine said,the focus is not on sex;this is only a way to love and be loved.

MPJ, you sort of echoed what I said in the other thread --  that sex is just a part of the whole, although it may be the catalyst for the deeper stuff that may come after.

I do know that with some people, friendship and familiarity come first before the physical and the sexual.  However, I really think that it is rarer that there no initial spark of attraction, even if that attraction may be subcounscious/subliminal.  In the matter of Ennis, I do think there was physical attraction from the start, although it was most likely not something that he was conscious about.  It touched on fundamental sexuality, and not on just appearances.

[ksxks]

MPJ, you sort of echoed what I said in the other thread --  that sex is just a part of the whole, although it may be the catalyst for the deeper stuff that may come after.

I do know that with some people, friendship and familiarity come first before the physical and the sexual.  However, I really think that it is rarer that there no initial spark of attraction, even if that attraction may be subcounscious/subliminal.  In the matter of Ennis, I do think there was physical attraction from the start, although it was most likely not something that he was conscious about.  It touched on fundamental sexuality, and not on just appearances.

I agree, Thomas.  If Ennis had not felt a sexual spark, then Jack would have been just some guy who he really liked, a friend he was glad to find.  A good friend like that, who he could open up to, would have been treasure enough, for a boy like Ennis, but it obviously was much more than that.  And Jack certainly had a lot to do with that, beginning with the posturing the first time they met, with the more vivacious personality he had, to draw Ennis out.  Just think if the other guy on Brokeback that summer had been a guy just like Ennis.  They'd have gotten nowhere most likely; even if there was a spark, it probably would have been seriously tamped down.  Except, of course, the getting-drunk thing does tend to make such things happen, whether they would have in their sober state or not.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

 Sometimes I feel Ennis felt he had to over-compensate his masculinity ( "I aint queer") on an unconcious level, because he knew deep inside, he was attracted to Jack, but if he was completly straight, no matter how right the conditions were to dally in sexual acts with another man, could he have let things go as far as they did with Jack? He had a male "ego" without being egotistical with Jack. Even felt homophobic toward gay men. Now here he was , faced with those very feelings himself toward Jack.

Could he have been resisting  the undeniable truth within himself as well as Jack in  that little struggle  in FNIT? He knew something "queer" was gonna happen at that point, just did'nt know what ,yet when he realized Jack meant business, he eventually  gave in to the advances, whereas, if he was a typical completly straight  man of his times, and not "open" to any of this ,he would have laid Jack out and left the tent immediatley in disgust. Maybe even left the mountain, but something deeper was happening to him cuz  This is not what happened.

 Perhaps  Ennis's expectations were not so out of the blue concerning sex with Jack. Maybe he longed for Jack to take the initiative, something he could never do. What I got from the scene is Jack breaking down the last vestiges of doubt in Ennis that he may have had about his sexual attraction to him. Ennis had  to step over his own line in the sand to get to Jack. I suppose Jack felt he had Ennis *figured out* or defined somewhat  if only, to a limited extent.. His "ready or not, your doin this" attitude took courage, but I think Ennis was pretty much involved with Jack  already and wanted to express it in some way.
Jack simply gave him that opportunity and  in doing so ,a definition for what he was feeling.  Did this make him completly gay?  still don't know but I feel he was'nt completly straight either. Complex ? No doubt. My take.

[lachlan]

Historically and culturally,  the concepts of "gay" and "straight",  even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world.   Other societies recognise, or at least assume,  that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex.   And even in this society,  it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit.   The plot of BBM is genuine;  I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence.   Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality.  For Ennis,  there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men,  but not to women.   Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer".   So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity;  "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available),  but not make a habit of it thereafter.  I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow,  so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity.   I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short,  simple story.  Ennis is only human.