Topic: was ennis gay ?

[lancecowboy]

Thomas, lamusica,

What you're discussing is fascinating.  My take is Ennis was "Passing" for straight in order to live in a world that he knew he would be killed if they ever found he was "queer". 

He never refuted who he was, not with Jack anyway.  But in order to live and function in his world, he had to be something he wasn't.   This was preservation mode.  Solely done so he can work, live, and not be found strung up in an irrigation ditch. 

Right or wrong labels run through this story, "queer", "Jack Nasty", "boys like you", there was no getting around it, or getting away from it.  Labels were like tire irons, and it beat both of them down.

Hi, manhattangirl, I don't disagree with you often, but when I do, I usually find myself corrected by your explanation. This time, I am not sure.

I don't think of Ennis as "passing" for straight. I think Ennis, in his own perception of himself, IS straight in every respect, EXCEPT his love for Jack. And in a way, he is right. If the two were to get married and run a cow and calf operation, there'd be no difference between Ennis and Jack, or Ennis and Jill. They'd be essentially any other straight couple except for their gender. Their sex would be private in any case, unless the neighbours are peeking through the windows, what's the difference?

Religious objections aside, for humanitarian and social justice, a label to segregate straight and gay couples is simply wrong. They are loving couples.

Having said that, I applaud the work of the early gay activists who struggled to fight for gay rights, and new laws. It is one thing to consider the practical mundane life of an individual living his or her own perception of the world he must survive in, and it is quite another to consider the legal and higher plane of social justice, or social history of hatred and bigotry. The two sides of the argument are equally valid within their own spheres, but when forced on to the other side, the argument is only that, argued, but not convincing.

Whatever Ennis' view of himself is the result of a long and tortuous process. He doesn't have to be right. He just have to live with it. We can either respect that, or we can tell him he is wrong. It changes nothing. Jack knew this, and did not argue. Jack simply loved Ennis for as long as he could. I don't think of Ennis as straight or gay. I think of Ennis as a loving man.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis lived a straight life, considered himself straight, did straight things, but loved a man.   His torture and his war was inside of him, and this is what tore at him.  I've felt always  his sexuality was burden and blessing to him.   He loved Jack, wanted him, needed him, but would not live with him, but never let him go, and Jack loved him throughout this.  In the ss and in the movie did Ennis deal with his demons?

[tpe]

Thomas, lamusica,

What you're discussing is fascinating.  My take is Ennis was "Passing" for straight in order to live in a world that he knew he would be killed if they ever found he was "queer". 

He never refuted who he was, not with Jack anyway.  But in order to live and function in his world, he had to be something he wasn't.   This was preservation mode.  Solely done so he can work, live, and not be found strung up in an irrigation ditch. 

Right or wrong labels run through this story, "queer", "Jack Nasty", "boys like you", there was no getting around it, or getting away from it.  Labels were like tire irons, and it beat both of them down.

I must admit that the layering of labels and symbols in the story and movie evoke so many varying responses in each of us.

I think that whatever each label or symbol evokes in each of us, it makes us think about how we try to understand the relationship of Ennis and Jack according to our own unique world views.

Discussing Ennis's "gayness" can't be dissociated from the way we try to understand the whole character of Ennis.  Personally, I look of Ennis through the lens of so many gay men who grew up and lived in an earlier less tolerant time -- and they did whatever it took to arrive at a separate peace with how they viewed themselves privately and publicly.

 

[lancecowboy]

Ennis lived a straight life, considered himself straight, did straight things, but loved a man.   His torture and his war was inside of him, and this is what tore at him.  I've felt always  his sexuality was burden and blessing to him.   He loved Jack, wanted him, needed him, but would not live with him, but never let him go, and Jack loved him throughout this.  In the ss and in the movie did Ennis deal with his demons?

You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.

[manhattangirl]

 

You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.

Sweet, Sweet Andrew,

Remember Daniel Day Lewis mentioned the final scene in BBM.  He saw what  you saw, what we all we all saw, a message given and received.   

[tpe]

I think all of us will agree that in the final scene, the expression of love transcended gender, orientation, and fear.

[NoReins]

You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.

I've just come back to this thread after months away (never enough time, never enough) and I'm so impressed with all the discussion and thoughts. I could have quoted from any number of posts, but I think what Andrew says here cuts right to the heart of the matter and expresses beautifully what I think about the realisation that Ennis came to in Jack's closet. If only Jack had lived....

Thanks everyone

[Matt Nasty]

looool finaly ive found this topic to post in. i am not sure if either of them are gay my theories are in no particular order

1)jack = gay  ennis=gay obviouse 1 bt in my mind the least lickely
2)jack= straight ennis= straight
3)jack= straight ennis=bi
4)jack= bi ennis= bi
5)jack= gay ennis=straight or vice versa

i could go on forever but there is some i have ways to justify all of these but i think they were either both straight (and just fell in love with each other outside of physical ways) or both bi my reasons for this way of thinking are both characters showed intrest in women over men except when it came to each other and yes you may say jack slept with the guy in mexico but that could have been just so he could pretend it was ennis and also you may say there marrigaes were just cover ups but then why would jack have started an affair with the woman from the party? fair enough lureen could have been a cover up but the fact he wanted another woman makes me think . but anyway i dont think their sexuality really matters much as much as the fact they fell in love and love doesnt work by lables.


you know i think it is a shame other straight people cant be more accepting like me but many straiht guys are so closed minded they would be insecure talking about this and would rather just give abuse

[tpe]

For me, both of them being bi is a distinct possibility.  But as I said in a previous post, an outward interest in women or even sex with women does not prove that the protagonists were not gay. 

Throughout history, gays have been forced to hide their identities through pragmatic marriages or through sexual activity with women so as to prove "manliness".  It is not uncommon to find to this day elderly gay men who are married and have sired children in order to keep their sexual identity a secret.

   

[aintfoolin]

looool finaly ive found this topic to post in. i am not sure if either of them are gay my theories are in no particular order

1)jack = gay  ennis=gay obviouse 1 bt in my mind the least lickely
2)jack= straight ennis= straight
3)jack= straight ennis=bi
4)jack= bi ennis= bi
5)jack= gay ennis=straight or vice versa

i could go on forever but there is some i have ways to justify all of these but i think they were either both straight (and just fell in love with each other outside of physical ways) or both bi my reasons for this way of thinking are both characters showed intrest in women over men except when it came to each other and yes you may say jack slept with the guy in mexico but that could have been just so he could pretend it was ennis and also you may say there marrigaes were just cover ups but then why would jack have started an affair with the woman from the party? fair enough lureen could have been a cover up but the fact he wanted another woman makes me think . but anyway i dont think their sexuality really matters much as much as the fact they fell in love and love doesnt work by lables.


you know i think it is a shame other straight people cant be more accepting like me but many straiht guys are so closed minded they would be insecure talking about this and would rather just give abuse

I don't feel Jack actually had an an affair with LaShawn, He only told Ennis that to keep Randall a secret.

[Matt Nasty]

I don't feel Jack actually had an an affair with LaShawn, He only told Ennis that to keep Randall a secret.

shit id been denying the randall thing the Mexico thing was bad enough i cant believe that he had a relationship with Randall Ive decided it was just a friendship that reminded jack of Ennis i feel jack and Ennis's love was to powerful to be replaced i really do thinking of anything else sullies jacks memory for me. when it was with a woman it seemed different not other men they loved only each other man now i am paroting myself. my denial was nice thnx for ruining it lol ahhhh well it must have just been the same thing as Mexico that he was just trying to remind himself of Ennis by sleeping with another guy. please oh please be true

[manhattangirl]

What I've aways found interesting is the "the boys like you "remark  Ennis made to Jack, and Jack not flinching, Jack replying, "Yeah what's the f#@king problem"  "Mexico" cutting it right down to the bone.  Ennis accusing him of being "queer", Jack acknowledging himself as such.  It all comes out, self realization, the love, the fear, that self imposed suppression cracking wide open.   It was all too much for Ennis to bare, Jack making it clear to him what all of it was doing to them.  It would take Jack's death for him to understand it.     

[myprivatejack]

What I've aways found interesting is the "the boys like you "remark  Ennis made to Jack, and Jack not flinching, Jack replying, "Yeah what's the f#@king problem"  "Mexico" cutting it right down to the bone.  Ennis accusing him of being "queer", Jack acknowledging himself as such.  It all comes out, self realization, the love, the fear, that self imposed suppression cracking wide open.   It was all too much for Ennis to bare, Jack making it clear to him what all of it was doing to them.  It would take Jack's death for him to understand it.     

Yes,this "boys like you" remark has always catched my attention,too.It seems to me as a Ennis way of separating clearly his own feelings from Jack's ones ,sexually speaking-as the question was between two different persons in this sense...-.I've always thought that this remark is a kind of Ennis self-protection against the possibility of being a "queer" himself; a kind of denial that what he felt for Jack was nonsexual,with a no definite gender of the loved being.And that the jealousy attack that he suffered then was his realization that women were never going to be a real rival for him in Jack's sexuality and affection,but men were...And maybe for himself,because accepting his partner's homosexuality was the most similar to accept his also,hence his aggressive reaction.
We'll never know if Ennis would have another male relationship if Jack hadn't appeared in his life,but it's rather sure he will.Homosexuality and even sexuality in global sense,has always been "painted" before his eyes with the most somber colours.This produces some rejection in child's mind,but also some attraction at the same time,but everything that is forbidden creates this attraction immediately.So,perhaps Ennis would have lived a classical and conventional marriage life with Alma,but sooner or later his curiosity disguised with fear and rejection,had appeared.JMO.

[tpe]

Yes,this "boys like you" remark has always catched my attention,too.It seems to me as a Ennis way of separating clearly his own feelings from Jack's ones ,sexually speaking-as the question was between two different persons in this sense...-.I've always thought that this remark is a kind of Ennis self-protection against the possibility of being a "queer" himself; a kind of denial that what he felt for Jack was nonsexual,with a no definite gender of the loved being. ...

I do agree with this. 

[Matt Nasty]

You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.

i am also getting angry with haters who disrepect heaths death saying thing like he deserved to die. one of the worst groups are the WBC some so called church( more acurately cult) that has slogans including "god hates fags", "thank god for dead soldiers", thank god for 9/11 and god hates fag enabelers (a fag enabler is there word for guys like me who are not our selves gay but beleive in gay rights). rhis group is vile and they call what they are doing gods work oh also forgot to hate the slogan "god hates the world and all her people". they are not only homophobes they are also racist they need to be stopped i urge anyone reading this to try and stop them if an oppertunity ever a rises.

[myprivatejack]

i am also getting angry with haters who disrepect heaths death saying thing like he deserved to die. one of the worst groups are the WBC some so called church( more acurately cult) that has slogans including "god hates fags", "thank god for dead soldiers", thank god for 9/11 and god hates fag enabelers (a fag enabler is there word for guys like me who are not our selves gay but beleive in gay rights). rhis group is vile and they call what they are doing gods work oh also forgot to hate the slogan "god hates the world and all her people". they are not only homophobes they are also racist they need to be stopped i urge anyone reading this to try and stop them if an oppertunity ever a rises.

I think this kind of " persons" don't deserve we spend an only minute speaking about them,Zankou. This is why in another thread I said that nobody SHOULD care for sexual option in our days...but they care,and how¡.  ^^) And if this happens nowadays,we can easily imagine how strong homophobia could be in Ennis and Jack's  time in a little rural and underdeveloped community environment.And also Ennis position and struggle between his intimate feelings and his social duties,no matter which label we put on him;straight,bisexual or gay,what does this matter?He was a man deeply in love with another person,who happenned to be another man,and that's should be enough for any person sensitive and clever enough.

[Matt Nasty]

I think this kind of " persons" don't deserve we spend an only minute speaking about them,Zankou. This is why in another thread I said that nobody SHOULD care for sexual option in our days...but they care,and how¡.  ^^) And if this happens nowadays,we can easily imagine how strong homophobia could be in Ennis and Jack's  time in a little rural and underdeveloped community environment.And also Ennis position and struggle between his intimate feelings and his social duties,no matter which label we put on him;straight,bisexual or gay,what does this matter?He was a man deeply in love with another person,who happenned to be another man,and that's should be enough for any person sensitive and clever enough.

yer well said. i dont think the world will ever be totally free from homophobes but im sure it will one day be alot better

[athena0204]

Well, I don't like labels, but yeah, I think Ennis was homosexual, and deep down inside, he knew it, and had known it for some time. I think Ennis as a teenager, had realized that he was attracted to other guys...but of course never, ever spoke of it. He knew that society would never accept him for it, and he had seen with his own eyes what could happen to someone that was gay. If Ennis had never met Jack, he would have just married Alma, and lived his entire life pretending to be something he wasn't, going through the motions, not being happy, but of course, just accepting it, for he had no choice. It's obvious that in being with Alma, before Ennis met Jack, that he was completely lying to himself. After he met Jack, Ennis was lying to himself even more by being married to Alma. Ennis was a person who felt he had to betray himself and just live a life that others chose for him. He was afraid to go on his own path because of what people might do to him if he did. But of course, lying to himself made even feel more miserable. So if he hadn't met Jack, he would have never had a relationship with another man, unless someone came along that was exactly like Jack, which of course, probably wouldn't have happened, because there's no one like that Jack Twist . Jack had a certain set of qualities and personality that was the only thing that could have ever brought Ennis out of the protective wall he'd built to shield himself from this world. I think it's so beautiful, because Ennis had this wonderful capacity to love so purely, so deeply, with his whole heart and soul, but it had to be with that one special person, one true love, and that was Jack, of course. If he hadn't met Jack, Ennis would have just been married to Alma for the rest of his life. Jack coming along was once-in-a-lifetime...he and Ennis were destined to find each other, because they were soulmates  .

[myprivatejack]

Well, I don't like labels, but yeah, I think Ennis was homosexual, and deep down inside, he knew it, and had known it for some time. I think Ennis as a teenager, had realized that he was attracted to other guys...but of course never, ever spoke of it. He knew that society would never accept him for it, and he had seen with his own eyes what could happen to someone that was gay. If Ennis had never met Jack, he would have just married Alma, and lived his entire life pretending to be something he wasn't, going through the motions, not being happy, but of course, just accepting it, for he had no choice. It's obvious that in being with Alma, before Ennis met Jack, that he was completely lying to himself. After he met Jack, Ennis was lying to himself even more by being married to Alma. Ennis was a person who felt he had to betray himself and just live a life that others chose for him. He was afraid to go on his own path because of what people might do to him if he did. But of course, lying to himself made even feel more miserable. So if he hadn't met Jack, he would have never had a relationship with another man, unless someone came along that was exactly like Jack, which of course, probably wouldn't have happened, because there's no one like that Jack Twist . Jack had a certain set of qualities and personality that was the only thing that could have ever brought Ennis out of the protective wall he'd built to shield himself from this world. I think it's so beautiful, because Ennis had this wonderful capacity to love so purely, so deeply, with his whole heart and soul, but it had to be with that one special person, one true love, and that was Jack, of course. If he hadn't met Jack, Ennis would have just been married to Alma for the rest of his life. Jack coming along was once-in-a-lifetime...he and Ennis were destined to find each other, because they were soulmates  .

Wonderful post again,Athena,thanks for it¡   I also guess that Ennis would have lived a complete "normal" and ordinary life with a woman,in a kind of existential frame that he knew was what society hoped from him.But I think that,sooner or later,he found himself feeling miserable with this life,he found that anything lacked in it,and ended by living so bitterly than having Jack's love,but for other causes.I don't know either if he had risked to have a romantic or sexual relationship with another man,maybe if the circumstances were proper...As when he met Jack,but,as you say,this kind of love is one in a life time.Moreover,one falls for someone also because you find him or her in the right moment,when you need more for someone like them; and it's obvious that Jack and Ennis met each other in this right moment,when they could need someone like each other the most.And it was unavoidable to fall in love with each other.

[Matt Nasty]

it has started to become clearer to me every day that  we will really never know and nor does it matter all that much about ennis' sexuality i suppose im just thinking like this because i know my sexuality doesnt have a lable for it, IMO sexuality is free and is individual to the individual person what we can be sure of is ennis loved jack in everyway and this is the true thing that matters wether ennis was gay, bi, straight or none of those options it really doesnt matter all to much. currently i think he was gay but i change my mind all the time but one feeling i have that is constant is that it doesnt matter what he was he loved jack and it was bautiful. so there is my opinion hope i explained it okay

[athena0204]

Wonderful post again,Athena,thanks for it¡   I also guess that Ennis would have lived a complete "normal" and ordinary life with a woman,in a kind of existential frame that he knew was what society hoped from him.But I think that,sooner or later,he found himself feeling miserable with this life,he found that anything lacked in it,and ended by living so bitterly than having Jack's love,but for other causes.I don't know either if he had risked to have a romantic or sexual relationship with another man,maybe if the circumstances were proper...As when he met Jack,but,as you say,this kind of love is one in a life time.Moreover,one falls for someone also because you find him or her in the right moment,when you need more for someone like them; and it's obvious that Jack and Ennis met each other in this right moment,when they could need someone like each other the most.And it was unavoidable to fall in love with each other.

Ennis was attracted to men, and he knew that. Of course, he knew society would never understand him, so therefore he had to lie to himself, and make himself think he was fine with Alma. So that's why he got engaged to her. It was what was expected of him, he didn't think he would ever have the chance to be true to himself and go his own path in his life, he knew how oppressive society was, because he had seen how Earl had been savagely murdered. So he figured that he could just put up with the life that was expected of him if he married Alma and he convinced himself that over time, it would be okay. You can tell from when he sees Jack for the first time outside Aguirre's trailer, that he's attracted to this man, but trying to hide it. Yes, Ennis is a person who has a shy nature, so he would be nervous around anyone, but there's something about the way he looks at Jack, and then pretends he's not looking that lets you know he feels something for this man. With Jack, Ennis experienced what he thought he would never have in this life. He experienced true love, happiness, and freedom. After he found true love with Jack, Ennis could never see himself being with anyone else, man or woman. If you look at all the scenes with Alma, you can tell how Ennis' mind is somewhere else, he's thinking of Jack, his mind and soul are with Jack, wishing he was with Jack.  So that's how I see it. As for Jack, we know he had sexual relations with other men, but he didn't feel anything for them. Jack used sex with other men to numb himself from the intense  sorrow and despair he felt about not being with his one true love, Ennis. It's the same as if someone were using drugs or alcohol to just temporarily numb themselves from their despair. As for Jack's relationship with Lureen, that goes along the same line as Ennis' with Alma. His body was there, his mind and soul were with Ennis, and he wished his whole being could be with Ennis. Like I said before, these two boys were meant for each other. They found each other at the right place and the right time, because it was destiny. They found what most people don't ever find in this life, and they belonged forever in each other arms. For the shared their hearts, their minds, their souls, and the entirety of their beings. They were each other's breath, they were each other's heartbeat, they were each other's life...without each other they were merely shadows of themselves.

[myprivatejack]

I can only say: Wonderful post,Athena¡ It summarises all the living and way of feeling,the needs and fears,all what our boys mean for each other and all what they are...Impossible to add anything more.

[lancecowboy]

it has started to become clearer to me every day that  we will really never know and nor does it matter all that much about ennis' sexuality i suppose im just thinking like this because i know my sexuality doesnt have a lable for it, IMO sexuality is free and is individual to the individual person what we can be sure of is ennis loved jack in everyway and this is the true thing that matters wether ennis was gay, bi, straight or none of those options it really doesnt matter all to much. currently i think he was gay but i change my mind all the time but one feeling i have that is constant is that it doesnt matter what he was he loved jack and it was bautiful. so there is my opinion hope i explained it okay

Yup. You explained it beautifully. It's just what I have always believed: It does not matter who you love; what's important is how you love him or her. And more importantly for me, I have also learned recently, that what really matters is how he loves you, or me. It's not enough that Ennis loves Jack or that Jack loves Ennis. What makes Brokeback Mountain special is that they love each other with the force of nature. It's nobody's business but theirs. We are only privileged to be witnesses to their story. We have no right to interfere.

Heath said it beautifully, too, that the movie was about two souls loving each other, and they just happened to be in vessals of two men. The tragedy is not from their being gay or whatever, but from society interferring.
 

[Matt Nasty]

Yup. You explained it beautifully. It's just what I have always believed: It does not matter who you love; what's important is how you love him or her. And more importantly for me, I have also learned recently, that what really matters is how he loves you, or me. It's not enough that Ennis loves Jack or that Jack loves Ennis. What makes Brokeback Mountain special is that they love each other with the force of nature. It's nobody's business but theirs. We are only privileged to be witnesses to their story. We have no right to interfere.

Heath said it beautifully, too, that the movie was about two souls loving each other, and they just happened to be in vessals of two men. The tragedy is not from their being gay or whatever, but from society interferring.
 

mmm heath was so wise

[athena0204]

They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though. It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover. Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved.  That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.

[orangetruck]

They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though. It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover. Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved.  That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.

You draw it out slowly, and I feel awkward having to quote the whole thing, but I do. Rather than sort of fancying the subject up with "2 souls loving each other, incoherent to homosexual attraction" and the like, you nail the subject matter over and over, into Ennis' closet door. This brought tears to my eyes, and I agree with it. They both were attracted to men and although Ennis had been 'unsure' most of his life, that too is a fuzzy convertible top to his wheels blazing straight down a safe path with no curves. He was always gay, and when he met Jack he simply couldn't deny his boisterous heart. Sure he could hush it up like the stoic he'd become, but his heart would now take the wheel..
Thank you for your post.

[Asali]

That was some post Athena and it is pretty much what has been in my head but could never put the words on paper.

[Matt Nasty]

They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though. It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover. Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved.  That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.

very very good post i wish i could get my feelings onto the page like that i agree very mmuch with what you said here especially about his true love in a was i almost feel ennis to a homophobic homosexual in the start but its not long before he accepts yet he is still uncomfortable with the subject again worried not about the fact he loved jack but what society would do about it, ennis just felt it better to try and live his expected life and only meet jack a few times a year "way out in the middle of no where", i almost feel ennis was affraid to be gay not becaue he felt it was wrong but because he feared society view of it.

[athena0204]

very very good post i wish i could get my feelings onto the page like that i agree very mmuch with what you said here especially about his true love in a was i almost feel ennis to a homophobic homosexual in the start but its not long before he accepts yet he is still uncomfortable with the subject again worried not about the fact he loved jack but what society would do about it, ennis just felt it better to try and live his expected life and only meet jack a few times a year "way out in the middle of no where", i almost feel ennis was affraid to be gay not becaue he felt it was wrong but because he feared society view of it.

Ennis knew he loved Jack, and before he met Jack, deep down inside he knew who he was. It was just something he couldn't express until Jack came into his life. Ennis wasn't afraid of himself. He was afraid of society, because it would never allow him to be himself. Ennis wasn't afraid of the feelings he had for Jack, he was afraid what would happen if anyone found out about those feelings. Had Ennis been uncomfortable with himself and had he thought that his love for Jack was wrong, he wouldn't have walked into the tent the second night. He wouldn't have replied to Jack's postcards. He wouldn't have gone on getaway trips with him. Ennis lived for the moments he could be with Jack. Jack was his world, Jack was his life. Ennis wasn't afraid to be with Jack because he thought it was wrong, he was afraid to be with Jack because society thought it was wrong. He thought they could only secretly see each other a few times a year, because that way no one would know. But to buy a ranch and live together, people would find out,  and Ennis had already seen with his own eyes what would happen if society found out. Those awful images of the heinously murdered Earl were ingrained in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and even more of what they might do to him and Jack if they found out. So what could Ennis do? He felt powerless. All he really wanted in his life was to be with the man he truly loved, it was killing him that he couldn't always be with Jack, but what could he do? In the end he realizes he shouldn't have let his fear of society imprison him because he realized how much hurt and suffering both he and Jack had endured all these years because they couldn't always be together, the way they were meant to.

[Matt Nasty]

Ennis knew he loved Jack, and before he met Jack, deep down inside he knew who he was. It was just something he couldn't express until Jack came into his life. Ennis wasn't afraid of himself. He was afraid of society, because it would never allow him to be himself. Ennis wasn't afraid of the feelings he had for Jack, he was afraid what would happen if anyone found out about those feelings. Had Ennis been uncomfortable with himself and had he thought that his love for Jack was wrong, he wouldn't have walked into the tent the second night. Ennis wasn't afraid to be with Jack because he thought it was wrong, he was afraid to be with Jack because society thought it was wrong. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and even more of what they might do to him and Jack if they found out.

yer thats what i was meaning but sometimes i cant get my point across to well