Topic: was ennis gay ?

[athena0204]

yer thats what i was meaning but sometimes i cant get my point across to well

Yeah, I know. I was just embellishing on it, if you don't mind. 

[Matt Nasty]

Yeah, I know. I was just embellishing on it, if you don't mind. 

no no go ahead embelish you make what i say make more sense

[lancecowboy]

They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though.

I agree with everyone that this is indeed a beautiful post, with many amazing points describing the relationship in the movie that we all love.

I only have one thing to add, and that is Ennis' awareness of his own feelings. I believe, as Heath stated in one of his interviews, that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack until Jack came along. As you said, if Jack never came along, he would have continued in life not experiencing love, all clenched and closed up, trying to be a good husband to Alma, and father to his little girls. He may not be perfect at it, and he may never be happy with it, except as a parent to wonderful girls. But he would not be miserable as he was after the summer of '63 because he would not have the benchmark of true love to measure against a colorless life. Many people live life without experiencing true love, and lead happy enough lives with loved ones. The tragedy here is that Ennis and Jack were denied the opportunity for true love by society, and to a certain degree by themselves. At the end of '63, Ennis did not know Jack loved him, and Jack did not know Ennis loved him. True love was alien to them, and they did not recognize it, so they let it slipped. Jack did not recognize it until the reunion kiss when they met again after four fricking years, until the motel scene, until the riverside chat. His reaching out to Ennis, caressing his ear, after the Earl scene was his own confirmation of his love for Ennis. The tragedy to me, is that Ennis never understood this love until the two shirts. Ennis was so clenched and closed up in his own world that he did not see true love when it was staring at him. He married Alma because he was not about to change his life for something that he was not certain about.

It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover.

Cassie was not so much a cover for Ennis, as she was his destiny, to learn about love. Cassie truly loved Ennis, who could not return that love because his heart was already Jack's. If Cassie had come along before Jack, I have no doubt that their relationship may be a happy one, different from Ennis and Jack, but happy nonetheless. Ennis after the last meeting with Jack was in despair and ended his relationship with Cassie because he felt he was unlovable...nothing...no where. When Cassie told him that girls don't fall in love with fun, he was shocked to know that he was loved, and that perhaps, Jack loved him afterall. That's why he sent the post card to meet in November, to attempt to patch things up, to find true love.

Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved.  That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.

 

[orangetruck]

Hmm 
I like the messages, but I still gotta cling to what athena's saying. I would call Cassie a reason rather than a destiny. She may be a destiny to the extent of this reason, the moral of her relationship (in the regimen of Ennis, I too would call this a cover) with Ennis. But Jack was Ennis' destiny in the big picture; he's the postcard still in Ennis' closet, as part of the emblem preserving Ennis' lost love which makes, finally, loving Jack bittersweet and phenomenally painful. I think Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to this lonesome landmark where he can sit in his trailer and absorb the moral of the story, and the absense of who Brokeback had destined him to be with.
Sorry, a little dose of the D word goes a long way...
I am good n' depressed now, take care. 

For thread relevance, under my impression of Ennis his homosexuality would indeed be the speller of his destiny. It knew only the 4 letters; it knew love, then it knew Jack.

[Matt Nasty]

Hmm 
I like the messages, but I still gotta cling to what athena's saying. I would call Cassie a reason rather than a destiny. She may be a destiny to the lengh this reason, the moral of her relatioship with Ennis. But Jack was Ennis' destiny in the big picture; he's the postcard still in Ennis' closet, as part of the emblem preserving Ennis' lost love which makes, finally, loving Jack bittersweet and phenomenally painful. I think Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to this lonesome landmark where he can sit in his trailer and absorb the moral of the story, and the absense of who Brokeback had destined him to be with.
Sorry, a little dose of the D word goes a long way...
I am good n' depressed now, take care. 

For thread relevance, under my impression of Ennis his homosexuality would indeed be the speller of his destiny. It knew only the 4 letters; it knew love, then it knew Jack.

i loved that bit so true

[athena0204]

I agree with everyone that this is indeed a beautiful post, with many amazing points describing the relationship in the movie that we all love.

I only have one thing to add, and that is Ennis' awareness of his own feelings. I believe, as Heath stated in one of his interviews, that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack until Jack came along. As you said, if Jack never came along, he would have continued in life not experiencing love, all clenched and closed up, trying to be a good husband to Alma, and father to his little girls. He may not be perfect at it, and he may never be happy with it, except as a parent to wonderful girls. But he would not be miserable as he was after the summer of '63 because he would not have the benchmark of true love to measure against a colorless life. Many people live life without experiencing true love, and lead happy enough lives with loved ones. The tragedy here is that Ennis and Jack were denied the opportunity for true love by society, and to a certain degree by themselves. At the end of '63, Ennis did not know Jack loved him, and Jack did not know Ennis loved him. True love was alien to them, and they did not recognize it, so they let it slipped. Jack did not recognize it until the reunion kiss when they met again after four fricking years, until the motel scene, until the riverside chat. His reaching out to Ennis, caressing his ear, after the Earl scene was his own confirmation of his love for Ennis. The tragedy to me, is that Ennis never understood this love until the two shirts. Ennis was so clenched and closed up in his own world that he did not see true love when it was staring at him. He married Alma because he was not about to change his life for something that he was not certain about.

Cassie was not so much a cover for Ennis, as she was his destiny, to learn about love. Cassie truly loved Ennis, who could not return that love because his heart was already Jack's. If Cassie had come along before Jack, I have no doubt that their relationship may be a happy one, different from Ennis and Jack, but happy nonetheless. Ennis after the last meeting with Jack was in despair and ended his relationship with Cassie because he felt he was unlovable...nothing...no where. When Cassie told him that girls don't fall in love with fun, he was shocked to know that he was loved, and that perhaps, Jack loved him afterall. That's why he sent the post card to meet in November, to attempt to patch things up, to find true love.

 

Hmmm, I agree with orangetruck in that I don't see Cassie as destiny for Ennis. Jack was Ennis' destiny and vice versa. Cassie was in many ways just a cover so that Ennis would appear "normal" to society. Although I do agree with you that she did love Ennis, but Ennis' heart already belonged to Jack, so he could never really love her back. The way I see it is that there was only one person Ennis could truly love, and that was Jack. Jack was the complete set of everything that a person had to embody in order to unlock the gates to Ennis' heart, and bring down that wall that Ennis had built around himself. As for when Ennis and Jack fell in love, it was that summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain. And they realized it then. That's why when Ennis sees Jack four years later, the way his eyes light up, you can tell there hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past four years that he hasn't thought of Jack and how happy, free, alive, and loved Jack made him feel. That's why Jack goes back to ask Aguirre for work the following summer. It's why Ennis burst into tears and was so emotionally distraught on the day he said goodbye to Jack in August of '63. He had just let his true love drive away, and felt he couldn't do anything about it, because he felt imprisoned by society. These boys were destined to be together, and from the beginning they knew this was true love, but didn't know what they could do in such an oppressive society. Had they never met each other, neither would have never experienced true love, so perhaps they could have led somewhat happy lives, but I think there would always be something missing in their hearts. They might not have known what it was, but they would have felt it. But destiny brought them together, and they found what very few people ever find in this world. They found a love that was truly epic. The tragedy is, they were not able to always be together in this life like they were meant to.

[lancecowboy]

Hmm 
I like the messages, but I still gotta cling to what athena's saying. I would call Cassie a reason rather than a destiny. She may be a destiny to the extent of this reason, the moral of her relationship (in the regimen of Ennis, I too would call this a cover) with Ennis. But Jack was Ennis' destiny in the big picture; he's the postcard still in Ennis' closet, as part of the emblem preserving Ennis' lost love which makes, finally, loving Jack bittersweet and phenomenally painful. I think Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to this lonesome landmark where he can sit in his trailer and absorb the moral of the story, and the absense of who Brokeback had destined him to be with.
Sorry, a little dose of the D word goes a long way...
I am good n' depressed now, take care. 

For thread relevance, under my impression of Ennis his homosexuality would indeed be the speller of his destiny. It knew only the 4 letters; it knew love, then it knew Jack.

I have to respectfully disagree with you orangetruck. Ennis was content with being alone when Cassie came alone. There are many lonesome cowboys that he did not need a cover. He already had Alma and the two girls. As far as people in Riverton is concerned, Ennis was a divorced Dad, a straight man. Ennis did not need a cover. However, having said that, it would be queer for Ennis to ignore or reject an advance as aggressive as Cassie's. He basically had to go along with it, and I am sure his rubber arm was twisted enough to make him go along. Let's face, gay or not, Cassie was one fun gal to be around. Ennis wasn't stupid. He knew a good thing when he saw one. The issue with Cassie was that she loved Ennis. She doubtlessly told Ennis enough times that she wanted to spend more time with him. After the last meeting with Jack, Ennis had to make a choice, continuing seeing Cassie, or do something to see more of Jack. It was an easy choice.

Cassie was not so much a lesson for Ennis, although we can say that every person in our lives is potentially a lesson. Cassie's parting shot, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." was a wakeup call to Ennis, that he was loved. It was a wakeup call to the man who shut out love, that having fun together on the mountain was not love. Love was being together, never enough time, can't quit you.

I agree with you that Jack was indeed Ennis' destiny. But Cassie was a guide, an angel along the way. She sought him out; she asserted herself into his life. He did not need or want a cover. He was content with his loneliness until his time with Jack two three times a year. He lived for those times together. Cassie was just a distraction in between. He had to put out a lot of strong signals to shake her off. If anything, getting involved with Cassie was a dangerous way to have himself outed, when he could not carry through with a regular relationship, commitment, marriage etc.

I hope you feel better. I have accepted this underlying sense of sorrow, or grief without end. Not a day go by when I feel the loss of Heath, the man who had so much to say through Ennis, and all the roles he played. Yes, Heath said that Ennis was gay, because he loved a man. But more importantly, Ennis and Jack was a story about two souls in love. The vassals that contained the two souls are beautiful but irrelevant in the final analysis. To focus on the vassals too much, is to discredit the love between the two souls. In my humble opinion, even if the vassals are two ugly heterosexual people, the love story would still be bigger than the sum of them. The fact that they are two beautiful cowboys in a society that regarded cowboys as the paragon of manliness, made the whole story perfect.
 

[lancecowboy]

Hmmm, I agree with orangetruck in that I don't see Cassie as destiny for Ennis. Jack was Ennis' destiny and vice versa. Cassie was in many ways just a cover so that Ennis would appear "normal" to society. Although I do agree with you that she did love Ennis, but Ennis' heart already belonged to Jack, so he could never really love her back. The way I see it is that there was only one person Ennis could truly love, and that was Jack. Jack was the complete set of everything that a person had to embody in order to unlock the gates to Ennis' heart, and bring down that wall that Ennis had built around himself. As for when Ennis and Jack fell in love, it was that summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain. And they realized it then. That's why when Ennis sees Jack four years later, the way his eyes light up, you can tell there hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past four years that he hasn't thought of Jack and how happy, free, alive, and loved Jack made him feel. That's why Jack goes back to ask Aguirre for work the following summer. It's why Ennis burst into tears and was so emotionally distraught on the day he said goodbye to Jack in August of '63. He had just let his true love drive away, and felt he couldn't do anything about it, because he felt imprisoned by society. These boys were destined to be together, and from the beginning they knew this was true love, but didn't know what they could do in such an oppressive society. Had they never met each other, neither would have never experienced true love, so perhaps they could have led somewhat happy lives, but I think there would always be something missing in their hearts. They might not have known what it was, but they would have felt it. But destiny brought them together, and they found what very few people ever find in this world. They found a love that was truly epic. The tragedy is, they were not able to always be together in this life like they were meant to.

I agree that Ennis and Jack are destined to be together. I already answered orangetruck with regard to Cassie.

I also mentioned that Ennis and Jack did not know what they experienced were true love in '63. It is why they both allowed each other to leave with such unsatisfactory good byes. Ennis helped Jack with his truck. Jack stole Ennis' shirt. They know how each of them felt towards the other, but they were NOT sure how the other felt towards himself. Ennis just sucker punched Jack, and they rode down the mountain wordlessly. If they knew that it was true love between them, neither of them would let go. Even in the reunion, when Ennis KNEW that Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life, he could not face up to the choice between life and love. Jack KNEW, and chose, each and every time he drove fourteen hours each way to meet Ennis.

Ennis, in my humble opinion, NEVER really believed that it was true love between him and Jack, until Cassie, and until finding the two shirts, the shirts that Jack kept for twenty years, hidden in the closet, literally and metaphorically. In his moment of grief, Ennis experienced the love that Jack kept in his heart of hearts, in his closet. Ennis KNEW in that moment in the closet, that he was loved, that he loved Jack.

The tragedy of the story, in my humble opinion, is that society for those two cowboys in '63, meant that they could not see true love even when it hit them over the head.

The hope, for me, from the story, is that society has changed over the half century, so that two cowboys can now live together in peace and love. Ennis would be proud.

[orangetruck]

As far as people in Riverton is concerned, Ennis was a divorced Dad, a straight man. Ennis did not need a cover. However, having said that, it would be queer for Ennis to ignore or reject an advance as aggressive as Cassie's. He basically had to go along with it, and I am sure his rubber arm was twisted enough to make him go along. . .


I agree with you that Jack was indeed Ennis' destiny. But Cassie was a guide, an angel along the way. . .

I hope you feel better. I have accepted this underlying sense of sorrow, or grief without end. . . 

As I agree it doesn't need to be further dissected, I will only quote key points that might clarify just what we are supposedly disagreeing on.

As far as people in Riverton is concerned, Ennis was a divorced Dad, a straight man. Ennis did not need a cover. However, having said that, it would be queer for Ennis to ignore or reject an advance as aggressive as Cassie's. He basically had to go along with it, and I am sure his rubber arm was twisted enough to make him go along. . .

Ennis auto-pilot. You paint the subject at hand (was ennis gay?) into a small town known as Riverton. But given the topic of homosexuality, I am simply pulling up the roots of his sexuality. And this stems much further back then middle aged Ennis finding Cassie in the close minded Riverton, imo.

I agree with you that Jack was indeed Ennis' destiny. But Cassie was a guide, an angel along the way. . .

I feel this is what I was saying: Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to the bigger picture (Jack) / While you call her an angel to guide him along the way. I think we can let clumsy terms of "destiny" and "cover" slide. While Cassie was necessary for the wake of Ennis' psyche, don't you think Ennis would have still found his way to the shirts? The nonverbal message, the metaphor of the shirts that Ennis finally got - what does that say? It says that yes, Jack LOVED Ennis, and that it began in their ultimate destiny... Brokeback Mountain. Cassie, although possessing unique qualities in Ennis' life, could have and would have been replaced by another blatant heterosexually mirrored example of Jack's love. I hope what I'm saying isn't terminating the value of her, because I certainly caught it the first time I watched the lonesome cafe scene.  :\'(

I hope you feel better. I have accepted this underlying sense of sorrow, or grief without end. . . 


I have to say you lost me there. I tend to rather keep my sentiments of Ennis in a more appropriate thread, as they're quite melancholic. But honestly, jumping into Brokeback Mountain hands on really does sort of equate a morose result. We all have either had our own Brokebacks or have come to fear/love in a relative way. There comes a point, and I'm sure we all know this, where our own perceptions of the film will bleed into the highly interpretable turns of the story, depending on just how we as individuals have loved. However, I will, if it's even applicable, agree to disagree here.

But I don't really see it.

[Asali]

I agree with everyone that this is indeed a beautiful post, with many amazing points describing the relationship in the movie that we all love.

I only have one thing to add, and that is Ennis' awareness of his own feelings. I believe, as Heath stated in one of his interviews, that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack until Jack came along. As you said, if Jack never came along, he would have continued in life not experiencing love, all clenched and closed up, trying to be a good husband to Alma, and father to his little girls. He may not be perfect at it, and he may never be happy with it, except as a parent to wonderful girls. But he would not be miserable as he was after the summer of '63 because he would not have the benchmark of true love to measure against a colorless life. Many people live life without experiencing true love, and lead happy enough lives with loved ones.

I totally agree that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack, yeah maybe he had sometimes noticed other guys but not enough to fully query himself, maybe he never did we don't know, but there was something about Jack that triggered these desires in Ennis and as much he tried to hold back he couldn't and that is why he entered the tent the second night, he wanted Jack no matter what but because of society and what he witnessed as a child this love had to stay on Brokeback Mountain. Wether this is labelled 'gay' I don't know, I only know that what they had was beautiful.
As for Cassie I have never really thought about her enough to comment.

[manhattangirl]

I've always wondered, with Cassie boldness, her stepping right up to Ennis and taking him by the hand to that dance floor, was some kind of sign to us.  Let's see if a woman, a woman who's openly shows her attraction, who shows sexuality, who makes it clear that Ennis is who she wanted, can make him forget Jack.  As we see it didn't.  That last night he had with Jack brought us a  glimpse of how he felt, about any woman, "I don't know",  Cassie didn't have a chance.  Even in the ss it tells us Ennis didn't want the problems, the "un-name woman" seem to have, and it wasn't going anywhere any way.

Jack was it for him, his heart, his soul, no room for any one in his world.   

My take.

[Asali]

Here is a thread discussing Cassie
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=384.0

[orangetruck]

I've always wondered, with Cassie boldness, her stepping right up to Ennis and taking him by the hand to that dance floor, was some kind of sign to us.  Let's see if a woman, a woman who's openly shows her attraction, who shows sexuality, who makes it clear that Ennis is who she wanted, can make him forget Jack.  As we see it didn't.  That last night he had with Jack brought us a  glimpse of how he felt, about any woman, "I don't know",  Cassie didn't have a chance.  Even in the ss it tells us Ennis didn't want the problems, the "un-name woman" seem to have, and it wasn't going anywhere any way.

Jack was it for him, his heart, his soul, no room for any one in his world.   

My take.

I agree. I do, and that sorta leaves Cassie in the back of my mind indeed as more of a lesson or deeper understanding of Ennis' and Jack's love. "Girls don't fall in love with fun".. really I think more than one message lives there. Jack and Ennis continued their love affair which started on the mountain as "fun", and stretched over its entirely, into painful, maddening, desperate, suffocated, merely acknowledged, deadly and epic. And along the way, Cassie having been messenger with good timing, Ennis realized this depth, he got a glimpse of Jack's face screaming behind Cassie's at that cafe table...
Cassie being just a 'lesson' but also obviously hurting, must have only sealed the affirmation for Ennis. And Cassie may as well have gripped those 20 years the men had together and smashed them into his temple right there at the table, like a huge anvil, no?
 

And I hear what you're saying, Pauline, and thanks for the link.

[manhattangirl]

I agree. I do, and that sorta leaves Cassie in the back of my mind indeed as more of a lesson or deeper understanding of Ennis' and Jack's love. "Girls don't fall in love with fun".. really I think more than one message lives there. Jack and Ennis continued their love affair which started on the mountain as "fun", and stretched over its entirely, into painful, maddening, desperate, suffocated, merely acknowledged, deadly and epic. And along the way, Cassie having been messenger with good timing, Ennis realized this depth, he got a glimpse of Jack's face screaming behind Cassie's at that cafe table...
Cassie being just a 'lesson' but also obviously hurting, must have only sealed the affirmation for Ennis. And Cassie may as well have gripped those 20 years the men had together and smashed them into his temple right there at the table, like a huge anvil, no?
 

And I hear what you're saying, Pauline, and thanks for the link.

Oh yeah definitely, if this was a "wake up call" for Ennis I don't what else could you call it.  Ennis was travelling in bubble, unawares of what was really going on around him.  We see it, but he didn't pick it up. That look on his face after Cassie storms out was like another "huh".

Great point OT.

[tpe]

I have already said a lot on this thread, so I won't add an more for now.  I just want to say that it is interesting to read the past few days' exchanges here...  Still a lot to think about, no matter how much we talk about this.

[athena0204]

I agree. I do, and that sorta leaves Cassie in the back of my mind indeed as more of a lesson or deeper understanding of Ennis' and Jack's love. "Girls don't fall in love with fun".. really I think more than one message lives there. Jack and Ennis continued their love affair which started on the mountain as "fun", and stretched over its entirely, into painful, maddening, desperate, suffocated, merely acknowledged, deadly and epic. And along the way, Cassie having been messenger with good timing, Ennis realized this depth, he got a glimpse of Jack's face screaming behind Cassie's at that cafe table...
Cassie being just a 'lesson' but also obviously hurting, must have only sealed the affirmation for Ennis. And Cassie may as well have gripped those 20 years the men had together and smashed them into his temple right there at the table, like a huge anvil, no?
 

And I hear what you're saying, Pauline, and thanks for the link.

Oh yes, I agree. Ennis didn't need a "lesson" from Cassie. By the time she came along, Ennis had been feeling so much emotional turmoil for years. He had already long since realized that what he felt for Jack and what Jack felt for him was true love. If he hadn't realized this, he wouldn't have lived those first four years without Jack feeling miserable. Not knowing if he would ever see Jack again, feeling trapped in a life with Alma that wasn't for him. Why did Ennis have that look of pure joy on his face when he saw Jack for the first time in four years? Because there hadn't been a single day that had gone by that he hadn't thought of him. Look at the way how Ennis suddenly transforms from a sullen, melancholy, loneliness to a joyful and exuberant every time he's about to go with Jack on one of their trips. He bounds down the stairs like he can't get there fast enough. It why he passionately kissed Jack at their first reunion. He loved Jack, and he didn't need anyone to tell him. He just felt he couldn't be with him because it would never be allowed. That's why he says "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." Nothing could ever make Ennis happier than to never be apart from the man he loves, but he felt there was nothing he could do about it. That scene with Cassie just reaffirms something that Ennis already knew. All those years he couldn't be with the man he loves and kept turning down that "sweet life" they could have had together, even thought it was what he wanted most in his life. Perhaps up until then, Ennis thought he was just protecting himself and Jack from what he felt would certainly happen to them. He felt miserable being apart from Jack, but he felt was the only way they could be safe.

But about Cassie, I have this to say. She has a very similar personality to Jack's. I admire her audacity about going after what she wants, and yes, she really did love Ennis, it's just that Ennis could never love her back. Cassie in a way does function as a cover for Ennis, because I do believe that after his divorce from Alma, there were rumors going around about him. I think Alma told Monroe about Ennis and Jack. When Ennis told Jack on of their trips that he thought people were staring at him like they knew, I don't think he was just being paranoid. I think people did suspect, but they had no proof. Alma, of course had proof, she'd seen it with her own eyes, but she had no visual evidence to show anyone, but people around town were suspecting the truth about Ennis. Of course, Ennis wanted to be alone in the town anyway, but Cassie really wouldn't let him. The way she comes up to him, I agree that he just has to go along with it, so in that sense, Ennis wasn't conciously choosing a cover, but once they started going out, she did indeed become his cover.

[lancecowboy]

sorry fellas, guys and gals. I think we are re-visiting old discussions that will never end, because there will never be agreement between you and me. I simply don't see Ennis (early in the movie, before the diner scene) as someone with the conscious awareness to do and think and feel all that you all put onto him. Ennis was a man who went with his gut, and even in the motel, after the reunion kiss, etc, he felt that he was stuck. He loved being with Jack. That's not the same as knowing in his mind of being in love with Jack. He cared for, and protected Jack whenever they were together, but that's not the same (in his mind) as loving Jack. It was only in the diner, after Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love with fun" that he became aware of the L word and how it applies to him and Jack. He realized at that moment that he loved Jack. That's when he hoped to meet in November and maybe patch things up. When Jack died, his hope was dashed and he felt lost, unloved. When he found the two shirts, he realized that he WAS loved, that he lost twenty years of loving because he cared more about what society thought, than what the two of them had. That's what went through Ennis' mind in that split second, as Heath's facial expression went from sorrow and sadness to shock, to grief, to utter heartbreak. There is no telling the time elapsed between that moment and when Ennis went down the stairs. Whatever the time measured in seconds, it was a lifetime of transformation.

Ennis went from a closeted gay cowboy with little self-awareness to a man who accepted his destiny, tragic and all, living a life examined and measured and with cherished memories.

Once Ennis became aware of the love between him and Jack, there was no turning back. He could never be with another person, Cassie or Randall, woman or man. That's the true love of the story.

I agree that at no point in the movie was it possible for Ennis and Cassie to be together. As I said earlier, Cassie had no chance because Ennis already gave his heart to Jack, from SNIT onwards. Even though he was not aware of it, it was obvious from the hesitation outside of the tent, to the utter breakdown of his psychological walls in Jack's embrace. That's why he was so sick at the end of the summer. A part of his heart drove off leaving him literally in the dust. Feeling and knowing are two different states of mind. Ennis felt Jack, but he didn't know what it meant, this thing with no reins.

However, if Ennis NEVER met Jack, then he might have tried to make it work with Cassie, after his divorce with Alma. They may even live happily for a while. But I agree that they are not destined to be lovers as Ennis and Jack were. Cassie was destined to be Ennis' friend, guiding angel, to teach him about love. That's what I meant about destiny, not true love, but connection in life. Destiny can mean more than true love.

In any case, we can agree to disagree. We don't have to agree to love the same movie, especially one as great as Brokeback Mountain, which is so rich with meaning that we can love it differently.

Viva la difference.

Please excuse me if I don't continue in disagree. 

[Asali]

Ennis went from a closeted gay cowboy with little self-awareness to a man who accepted his destiny, tragic and all, living a life examined and measured and with cherished memories.

Once Ennis became aware of the love between him and Jack, there was no turning back. He could never be with another person, Cassie or Randall, woman or man. That's the true love of the story.

 Feeling and knowing are two different states of mind. Ennis felt Jack, but he didn't know what it meant, this thing with no reins.

However, if Ennis NEVER met Jack, then he might have tried to make it work with Cassie, after his divorce with Alma. They may even live happily for a while. But I agree that they are not destined to be lovers as Ennis and Jack were. Cassie was destined to be Ennis' friend, guiding angel, to teach him about love. That's what I meant about destiny, not true love, but connection in life. Destiny can mean more than true love.

I have quoted the parts I totally agree with.

[orangetruck]

Lance, I believe you have an amazing time reading between the lines of others and finding that, despite our different means of technical terms, we're seeing Ennis the same.
As feeling and knowing are different, we can all easily distinguish Ennis' relationship with Jack from that of him and Cassie. And then I'm left to wonder, in your opinion, on which relationship would you more logically base Ennis' sexuality? Cassie was a crucial part of the story, but I think another woman would have come into Ennis' monotonous life. Mind you, Cassie's timing did cause Ennis to send the postcard to meet Jack, which led him to receive that stunning "Deceased" return notice, which led him to Jack's folks' in Lightening Flat and so on. I would just like to pose the question:

Minus Cassie, would Ennis have eventually picked up the message through another "fun, easily attached" gal and, given the less prompt attraction to the elder Twists' home, still come across the shirts and the bloody message up the sleeve that says "Ennis I love you"?

Cassie did not come from the Mountain, those other two souls did. She had a place in the story, but I find it best not to iconize her into the final image in the trailer, imo. Ennis' sexuality I would say was, in retrospect, indeed jaded by the initial meshing of his and Jack's souls. However, the irrigation ditch discussion on the mountain was key to many things including Ennis' fear of being gay and ultimately, his fear of who he was. Everything happening on that mountain was in the end, everything. That is why when we see the shirts and postcard hiding as a closet door shuts, it is our necks caught in that door - and the open swaying field of grass outside the window kills us as it stretches over every feeling of the film.

But if I could hug Cassie for cramming sense down Ennis' throat, I would. 

Sorry if I too have pulled this thread way out of bounds, but I do appreciate the stimulation in the exchange of thoughts from others like you who also seem to have a deep disposition to the film. 

[Asali]

Lance, I believe you have an amazing time reading between the lines of others and finding that, despite our different means of technical terms, we're seeing Ennis the same.

Everything happening on that mountain was in the end, everything. That is why when we see the shirts and postcard hiding as a closet door shuts, it is our necks caught in that door, and the open swaying field of grass outside the window kills us as it stretches over every feeling of the film.

But if I could hug Cassie for cramming sense down Ennis' throught, I would. 

Sorry if I too have pulled this thread way out of bounds, but I do appreciate the stimulation in the exchange of thoughts from others like you who also seem to have a deep disposition to the film. 

Not at all, I feel we need these extra inputs to attempt to work it all out, our necks caught in that door etc wowthat made me tear up just at the thought of the final scene.
Such a confusing topic that any discussion is worthwhile imo. We might seem like we are going around in circles with the question 'Was Ennis Gay' but I do like this discussion and the inputs.

[athena0204]

Not at all, I feel we need these extra inputs to attempt to work it all out, our necks caught in that door etc wowthat made me tear up just at the thought of the final scene.
Such a confusing topic that any discussion is worthwhile imo. We might seem like we are going around in circles with the question 'Was Ennis Gay' but I do like this discussion and the inputs.

The bottom line is that I think Ennis knew he was gay before he met Jack, but had he never met Jack, he would have most likely never had a romantic relationship with another man. When Ennis says he's stuck with what he's got, I believe he's talking about his marriage to Alma and the circumstances of society that would never allow Jack and Ennis to be free and live their lives together the way they both wanted. As for feeling and knowing...they can be closely tied. He felt Jack, but he also knew this was true love he was feeling for this man and this man also felt the same for him. He wouldn't have brought up the story of Earl and Rich if he didn't think there was some comparison. I believe Ennis's horrific memory of that incident was one of the most crucial things in this entire saga. It's what explains so much about him and why he didn't listen to Jack. It's what makes us understand his decisions and what makes the tragedy complete when at the end, if he could do it all over again, Ennis would have done what he knew was right, what his heart was telling him, he wouldn't have let his fear of society keep him and Jack miserable prisoners all those years. As for "going with his gut", or listening to one's heart, if Ennis had fully listened to his feelings, he would have listened to Jack. But his head was telling him to be afraid because society was cruel, it would kill him and Jack, so he couldn't listen to his heart. Jack is more of the one that listens to his heart no matter what. Ultimately, Ennis is the classic "still waters run deep". Underneath that stoic demeanor is a sea of roiling emotion. His quiet and seemingly aloof facade was the wall he'd built around himself that shieldied him off from the world. Behind that wall, Ennis was "drowning in sorrow" because he couldn't be with Jack all those years. After Jack dies, Ennis is completely heartbroken, but will go on in this life, this time with no wall. That wall that Jack tore down every time he was with Ennis, but Ennis put up again when he was around everyone else because that's how he dealt with the rest of the world, was finally gone for good.

[orangetruck]

If it's out of place to post an image here, I'll certainly understand - But for the sake of Cassie, and the opaque dynamic of sexuality and soulmates (I know there's more I'd like to say, so further discussion is anticipated):



What she said, really knocked him in the heart. You can see it all over his face. When Cassie mentioned love, Ennis could put 2 and 2 together that he indeed loved Jack and couldn't keep his sexuality separate from this result. It all is one. Although their friendship was brilliant, he could no longer deny that it was not only more, it was everything. - this man loves Jack. And there Ennis was at the table, too lonesome to move out of a corner and only able to sit trapped, pissed on and slapped in the face really hard.

     In a sense I think kid Ennis understood that it was love that had drawn Earl to the other man; hadn't kid Ennis presumably never heard the word "love" growing up? This is where I find it fascinating if not tricky, and where I draw the line between feeling and knowing. Ennis damn well felt that thing which had been absent his life prior to Jack. He loved Jack! And until he had to hear it, until he had to be told (or otherwise forced) that he loved this other man, he could at least fool himself -- his heart could at least cheat its way to Jack a couple times a year. But now that he knew no escape route, he wasn't about to choose a life apart from Jack; when the word finally does come slamming into the side of his head, it is an awful catch 22. He's stunned, absolute victim to his now intolerant heart and although he's frozen for a moment, he turns to run from the blow of his past and into his future with the man whose soul he fell in love with 20 years back. Only.... that soul had already progressed.  :\'(

[Asali]

The bottom line is that I think Ennis knew he was gay before he met Jack, but had he never met Jack, he would have most likely never had a romantic relationship with another man. When Ennis says he's stuck with what he's got, I believe he's talking about his marriage to Alma and the circumstances of society that would never allow Jack and Ennis to be free and live their lives together the way they both wanted.

I think the word 'knew' is too strong, had an idea maybe but never actually thought much about it.
I agree that stuck with what he's got was definitely about his marriage to Alma and society's beliefs.

[Matt Nasty]

I think the word 'knew' is too strong, had an idea maybe but never actually thought much about it.
I agree that stuck with what he's got was definitely about his marriage to Alma and society's beliefs.

hmm i agree with you here he may of knew if he thought about it be i think ennis just assumed he was straight because it was expected i dont think he really thought much about being gay maybe if he had he would have realised but... as it stands i think jack was when he realised but maybe im wrong but that is just my theory

[athena0204]

hmm i agree with you here he may of knew if he thought about it be i think ennis just assumed he was straight because it was expected i dont think he really thought much about being gay maybe if he had he would have realised but... as it stands i think jack was when he realised but maybe im wrong but that is just my theory

Well, I think he at least knew he was different. But of course, had he never met Jack, he would have just lived the life that was expected of him and never really experienced true love. He realized that his love for Jack was exactly what his father and society vehemently hated, that's why he tells the story of Earl and Rich.

[Matt Nasty]

Well, I think he at least knew he was different. But of course, had he never met Jack, he would have just lived the life that was expected of him and never really experienced true love. He realized that his love for Jack was exactly what his father and society vehemently hated, that's why he tells the story of Earl and Rich.

very true

[manhattangirl]

I sometimes think Ennis was asexual before Jack, and I say this in a sense of not being sexual, no sexuality prior to him meeting Jack, there was no true desire, curiosity, and I bet he never talked openly about such things till Jack,  and with Jack he admitted to his own virginity.

But there was an innocence about Ennis, and there was desire in Ennis that emerged with Jack.  

I know this may sound silly to some of you.  But those years before Jack, who was Ennis?

[Matt Nasty]

I sometimes think Ennis was asexual before Jack, and I say this in a sense of not being sexual, no sexuality prior to him meeting Jack, there was no true desire, curiosity, and I bet he never talked openly about such things till Jack,  and with Jack he admitted to his own virginity.

But there was an innocence about Ennis, and there was desire in Ennis that emerged with Jack.  

I know this may sound silly to some of you.  But those years before Jack, who was Ennis?

good point we know he was a virgin and was a pretty innocent guy so... maybe he was just laking  a sexuality altogether all the though t doesnt seem likely IMO

[tpe]

I sometimes think Ennis was asexual before Jack, and I say this in a sense of not being sexual, no sexuality prior to him meeting Jack, there was no true desire, curiosity, and I bet he never talked openly about such things till Jack,  and with Jack he admitted to his own virginity.

But there was an innocence about Ennis, and there was desire in Ennis that emerged with Jack.  

I know this may sound silly to some of you.  But those years before Jack, who was Ennis?

I suspect that what kept him from exploring sex prior to his meeting Jack was because he was inwardly confused about himself.  I suspect that he found himself attracted to guys, and couldn't make sense of it.  Isn't this typical with many people?  In the case of Ennis, he was an unusually late bloomer...

[orangetruck]

I suspect that what kept him from exploring sex prior to his meeting Jack was because he was inwardly confused about himself.  I suspect that he found himself attracted to guys, and couldn't make sense of it.  Isn't this typical with many people?   In the case of Ennis, he was an unusually late bloomer...

Nice concept, manhattan, I like.

 -- I would even call it irritatingly typical, no offense to anyone..