Topic: was ennis gay ?

[tpe]

-- I would even call it irritatingly typical, no offense to anyone..

One has to be patient. 

[orangetruck]

One has to be patient. 

Behind the pretext of friendship, love or similarly valued connection, yes one certainly does; these sorts of things can be greatly challenged though, depending not just on patience but also on tolerance for abuse; this equilibrium can be a black trick to maintain.
Again I'm trailing  and into the realms of personal experience which is the avenue that led me to this gem of a film. 

About Ennis' sexuality -- I can't help but wonder when his hormones started developing. Presumably it wasn't long before the traumatization at age 9. Likewise, that would seem about the worst possible time in a boy's life to experience such a conjunction of confusion and torment? Kids have a trillion thoughts and feelings swarming in their minds, don't they? This thing at 9 must have even robbed him of his imagination and free spirit however apparent, and much moreso than that thing he had with Jack ever would.. thoughts are bouncing off each other now and I'm going crosseyed. 
 

[tpe]

Behind the pretext of friendship, love or similarly valued connection, yes one certainly does; these sorts of things can be greatly challenged though, depending not just on patience but also on tolerance for abuse; this equilibrium can be a black trick to maintain.
Again I'm trailing  and into the realms of personal experience which is the avenue that led me to this gem of a film. 

About Ennis' sexuality -- I can't help but wonder when his hormones started developing. Presumably it wasn't long before the traumatization at age 9. Likewise, that would seem about the worst possible time in a boy's life to experience such a conjunction of confusion and torment? Kids have a trillion thoughts and feelings swarming in their minds, don't they? This thing at 9 must have even robbed him of his imagination and free spirit however apparent, and much moreso than that thing he had with Jack ever would.. thoughts are bouncing off each other now and I'm going crosseyed. 
 

This brings up a question: did the 9 year-old Ennis understand the "sin" of Earl and Rich.  Or did a better understanding come a bit later, when he started understanding his own sexuality a bit more?

In any case, both the trauma and the awakening of sexual desire and identity were both formative.  It coalesced into something that became deeply conflicted, masked under the veil of stoicism.

[orangetruck]

This brings up a question: did the 9 year-old Ennis understand the "sin" of Earl and Rich.  Or did a better understanding come a bit later, when he started understanding his own sexuality a bit more?

In any case, both the trauma and the awakening of sexual desire and identity were both formative.  It coalesced into something that became deeply conflicted, masked under the veil of stoicism.

This is a very intriguing point, one I ponder often. Personally, I was attracted mentally and physically (I think we can figure the proof of that.. ) to the human male when I was around 4 or 5 years old.
The simple fact that we aren't given the details of Ennis' puberty, I'm not sure exactly how to address his psyche. But what teeters in my mind is whether or not he understood Earl and his man "loved" each other. That's another highly discussed issue here. However, and even though Ennis hadn't really felt love growing up, he may have been under the impression that families or even households were units of love. So Ennis may or may not have understood the sexual element of Earl's relationship; similarly goes the idea of love between them. But I do lean towards Ennis having made the latter correlation, and maybe he spent 31 years not shaking hands with but dancing around love's replica with Jack.
All in all I'm left in awe of kid Ennis, and the secrets of memory (at an early age moreso)
 

[Matt Nasty]

This is a very intriguing point, one I ponder often. Personally, I was attracted mentally and physically (I think we can figure the proof of that.. ) to the human male when I was around 4 or 5 years old.
The simple fact that we aren't given the details of Ennis' puberty, I'm not sure exactly how to address his psyche. But what teeters in my mind is whether or not he understood Earl and his man "loved" each other. That's another highly discussed issue here. However, and even though Ennis hadn't really felt love growing up, he may have been under the impression that families or even households were units of love. So Ennis may or may not have understood the sexual element of Earl's relationship; similarly goes the idea of love between them. But I do lean towards Ennis having made the latter correlation, and maybe he spent 31 years not shaking hands with but dancing around love's replica with Jack.
All in all I'm left in awe of kid Ennis, and the secrets of memory (at an early age moreso)
 

intresting point 

[athena0204]

This is a very intriguing point, one I ponder often. Personally, I was attracted mentally and physically (I think we can figure the proof of that.. ) to the human male when I was around 4 or 5 years old.
The simple fact that we aren't given the details of Ennis' puberty, I'm not sure exactly how to address his psyche. But what teeters in my mind is whether or not he understood Earl and his man "loved" each other. That's another highly discussed issue here. However, and even though Ennis hadn't really felt love growing up, he may have been under the impression that families or even households were units of love. So Ennis may or may not have understood the sexual element of Earl's relationship; similarly goes the idea of love between them. But I do lean towards Ennis having made the latter correlation, and maybe he spent 31 years not shaking hands with but dancing around love's replica with Jack.
All in all I'm left in awe of kid Ennis, and the secrets of memory (at an early age moreso)
 

I do believe who we are attracted to is something we just know at a young age. Before we have any knowledge of anything romantic or sexual, we just feel some attraction. I remember my first crush was on a boy in first grade. That's why I believe sexuality isn't really something we consciously choose. I think just like most people, both Ennis and Jack just felt attraction at such early ages. Perhaps that's why Ennis's father made it a point to show the dead Earl to Ennis. Perhaps his father suspected something about him. Perhaps from an early age, Ennis was already not what his father wanted him to be. The nine-year old Ennis wouldn't understand romance or sexuality of course, but that attraction element, like you said, you were only four or five when you knew. I was only five or six when I knew I was straight. We all have those attractions that we can't make sense of when we're young children. That's why people need to be accepting of homosexuality. It's not something that a person chooses, it's just the way they are. People should just be free to be the person they truly love, and people should be free to just be who they are, not be imprisoned and be forced to pretend to be something they aren't just to please others and because it's what society expects of them.

[tpe]

I am attracted to the phrase: "the secrets of memory."  This is very Proustian, IMO.

I do feel that the key to unlock Ennis's identity and sexuality is in his growing up in puberty.  As this was never really fleshed out, we shall never really know...

[Matt Nasty]

I am attracted to the phrase: "the secrets of memory."  This is very Proustian, IMO.

I do feel that the key to unlock Ennis's identity and sexuality is in his growing up in puberty.  As this was never really fleshed out, we shall never really know...

i agree i think ennis' homosexuality had developed at puberty but he didnt realise he was so into doing what was expected i dont think he realised this fact until he met jack...IMO

[tpe]

i agree i think ennis' homosexuality had developed at puberty but he didnt realise he was so into doing what was expected i dont think he realised this fact until he met jack...IMO

I go back and forth on this.  Looking back at my own personal experience, it is hard for me to say that he didn't know, although it is understandable that he was in denial for some time...

[myprivatejack]

I think his perception of homosexuality and,in some extent,of sexuality was corrupted for the image he had of it from a very young age,when precisely his sexual life was awakening.As I say today in another thread,he felt attracted and rejected at the same time for it,because he felt into himself a contradiction:that society forbade this but that it couldn't be so bad because it was founded in feelings(not only in vice,as his father had taught him).And the atrraction´s side of this contradiction made him know that there was something "different" also inside him; the question of the denial is this,another question...

[Asali]

i agree i think ennis' homosexuality had developed at puberty but he didnt realise he was so into doing what was expected i dont think he realised this fact until he met jack...IMO

I go back and forth on this.  Looking back at my own personal experience, it is hard for me to say that he didn't know, although it is understandable that he was in denial for some time...

Denial was there even if he'd never consciously realised it but he sure didn't hesitate for long when the time came. 

[aintfoolin]

 I have said before that I feel Ennis repressed his feelings of homosexuality from a young age, but I believe he had them. I've also said that he was robbed of the ability to be who he truly was by his father's beliefs about it. Basically he was  literally "scared straight" by his father's showing him a mutilated corpse and what happens to men who have these tendencies in any way.

I feel his experiences on Brokeback, allowed him to let the feelings surface again with Jack. His father was dead and he now felt *safe* as long as no one off the isolated *safe harbour* of Brokeback found out. Jack said all they had left was Brokeback Mt. in the confrontation scene at the end meaning imo that Ennis could'nt let go of that isolated , safe environment, where he was free to be who he truly was.

I feel he identified in some manner with Earl and Rich as people were talking and gossiping about them in the town. Ennis heard this talk and saw himself and possibilities of attraction to same sex relationships. He relayed his memories to Jack as if this was something he had carried with him for many years, as if it happened yesterday. It is the reason he offered for not ranching up with him for fear of the same fate as these two "old birds" who long ago dared to buck society and live as two men in love. We will never know if Ennis straight or gay, but we do know he was human and capable of feeling true love for another man, Jack. My opinion.

[orangetruck]

I have said before that I feel Ennis repressed his feelings of homosexuality from a young age, but I believe he had them. I've also said that he was robbed of the ability to be who he truly was by his father's beliefs about it. Basically he was  literally "scared straight" by his father's showing him a mutilated corpse and what happens to men who have these tendencies in any way.

I feel his experiences on Brokeback, allowed him to let the feelings surface again with Jack. His father was dead and he now felt *safe* as long as no one off the isolated *safe harbour* of Brokeback found out. Jack said all they had left was Brokeback Mt. in the confrontation scene at the end meaning imo that Ennis could'nt let go of that isolated , safe environment, where he was free to be who he truly was.

I feel he identified in some manner with Earl and Rich as people were talking and gossiping about them in the town. Ennis heard this talk and saw himself and possibilities of attraction to same sex relationships. He relayed his memories to Jack as if this was something he had carried with him for many years, as if it happened yesterday. It is the reason he offered for not ranching up with him for fear of the same fate as these two "old birds" who long ago dared to buck society and live as two men in love. We will never know if Ennis straight or gay, but we do know he was human and capable of feeling true love for another man, Jack. My opinion.

I simply agree with just about all of this, other than the presumption that his sexuality is unknown; I think it was hidden at most, and that it was homosexuality.

[athena0204]

I simply agree with just about all of this, other than the presumption that his sexuality is unknown; I think it was hidden at most, and that it was homosexuality.

I agree. It was hidden because of the conditioning and fear his father and society had instilled in him. When Jack came along...Ennis could no longer keep it hidden, for he had found true love. His heart had indeed taken over. 

[lancecowboy]

I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.

But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.

Here is a question for you all.

Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?

Some people have sexual feelings early, and know for certain that they are attracted to others of their same gender.

Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.

In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer. In fact, homophobia is a possible sign of feelings repressed, and in some cases, leading to feelings engendered when non existed previously. In the case with Ennis, once there was friendship with Jack over the weeks, and then Jack made the advances in FNIT, he was faced with the dilemma of enjoying and liking Jack with strong feelings, and fearing the repercussions of being gay.  I agree that by SNIT, when he thought about it by the fire, and stood up, both hands on his knees, hat in hand, to the tent, Ennis accept his feelings towards Jack. And in the shortstory, by the reunion scene in the motel, Ennis knew he had strong feelings for Jack, hundreds of times.

My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.

My own response will likely be unpopular but, hey, who wants to be popular anyway. 

And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.

[Asali]

Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.

In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer.
My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.

And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.

Not unpopular at all. This is probably the closest to what I have been trying to say but I find it difficult coming up with the right words. I know exactly what you mean with all this, thankyou.

[manhattangirl]

I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.

But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.

Here is a question for you all.

Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?

Some people have sexual feelings early, and know for certain that they are attracted to others of their same gender.

Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.

In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer. In fact, homophobia is a possible sign of feelings repressed, and in some cases, leading to feelings engendered when non existed previously. In the case with Ennis, once there was friendship with Jack over the weeks, and then Jack made the advances in FNIT, he was faced with the dilemma of enjoying and liking Jack with strong feelings, and fearing the repercussions of being gay.  I agree that by SNIT, when he thought about it by the fire, and stood up, both hands on his knees, hat in hand, to the tent, Ennis accept his feelings towards Jack. And in the shortstory, by the reunion scene in the motel, Ennis knew he had strong feelings for Jack, hundreds of times.

My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.

My own response will likely be unpopular but, hey, who wants to be popular anyway. 

And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.

Are you saying he scarified his heterosexual tendencies,  for friendship?     

[orangetruck]

I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.

But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.

Here is a question for you all.

Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?


And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.

I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.

It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.

When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.

I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...

Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.

In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.

[manhattangirl]

I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.
When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.

I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...

Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.

In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.

I love this.   Thanks OT. This is always been my view.

[orangetruck]

I love this.   Thanks OT. This is always been my view.

My pleasure. It felt good to get off my chest in this fashion. It secures my appreciation for everyone's contribution to the thread. The stir of ideas keeps us fine tuned, ya? 

[tpe]

I think his perception of homosexuality and,in some extent,of sexuality was corrupted for the image he had of it from a very young age,when precisely his sexual life was awakening.As I say today in another thread,he felt attracted and rejected at the same time for it,because he felt into himself a contradiction:that society forbade this but that it couldn't be so bad because it was founded in feelings(not only in vice,as his father had taught him).And the atrraction´s side of this contradiction made him know that there was something "different" also inside him; the question of the denial is this,another question...

Yes, perhaps one could call it social/behavioral pre-conditioning?

[tpe]

Denial was there even if he'd never consciously realised it but he sure didn't hesitate for long when the time came. 

Yes.  And you bring up a good point: denial does not mean an inability to act on one's desires.  I have known many men who made elaborate justifications to explain their actions...

[tpe]

***
I feel his experiences on Brokeback, allowed him to let the feelings surface again with Jack. His father was dead and he now felt *safe* as long as no one off the isolated *safe harbour* of Brokeback found out. Jack said all they had left was Brokeback Mt. in the confrontation scene at the end meaning imo that Ennis could'nt let go of that isolated , safe environment, where he was free to be who he truly was.
***

BBM was a sanctuary where they could be themselves.  I think we glimpse Ennis's true nature mostly in those scenes up in the Mountain...

[tpe]

I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.

But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.

Here is a question for you all.

Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?

Some people have sexual feelings early, and know for certain that they are attracted to others of their same gender.

Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.

In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer. In fact, homophobia is a possible sign of feelings repressed, and in some cases, leading to feelings engendered when non existed previously. In the case with Ennis, once there was friendship with Jack over the weeks, and then Jack made the advances in FNIT, he was faced with the dilemma of enjoying and liking Jack with strong feelings, and fearing the repercussions of being gay.  I agree that by SNIT, when he thought about it by the fire, and stood up, both hands on his knees, hat in hand, to the tent, Ennis accept his feelings towards Jack. And in the shortstory, by the reunion scene in the motel, Ennis knew he had strong feelings for Jack, hundreds of times.

My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.

My own response will likely be unpopular but, hey, who wants to be popular anyway. 

And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.

Hmmm...  I have always considered gayness/homosexuality to be part of one's nature/make-up.  I am of a school that it is primarily rooted in nature, although nurture can influence its course of development.  So I guess my answer is yes.

[tpe]

I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.

It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.

When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.

I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...

Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.

In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.

I do agree with this.

[athena0204]

I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.

It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.

When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.

I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...

Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.

In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.

Friend, everything you said is so true. You are completely right. That's what I've always felt about Ennis too. His personality was one where he had the ability to love so truly, deeply, and purely. Jack brought all of that out.

[aintfoolin]

 But Jack was a man. Another man beame Ennis's focal point despite his homophobic teachings. . Jack was friend, companion, and lover for Ennis .   I feel as a child there was much fear of his father. His father's words and actions. He also had a mother who apparently loved and cared for him and was a source of comfort so he had somewhat of another side  , some one other than the one who hated was present in the home. Some one who sang lullabys and made him feel loved. With repressed feelings , as a pre-teen, certainly he sought friendship and copanionship as we all do. the wish to belong to a group with similar social interests. But there was always Earl to remind him that in his culture , these feelings were not only unacceptable, but dangerous. He doe'snt quite fit in with what was expected of him so he becomes withdrawn. He can successfully repress his feelings, but he is also aware that they exist, but buried deep down inside with the fear and shame. It must remain a secret or he'd be dead.
 
 I think when he met Jack it was only then, he was shown that he need'nt fear or be ashamed of what he felt. It was jack who engaged Ennis and drew him out of his self -imposed shell. It allowed Ennis to just be Ennis first without judgements., before anything romantically could be realized.  Then something began to happen.  Jack finds Ennis not only has a personality, but also a  sense of humor. The harmonica jokes, a cute way  of Ennis  flirting, a sure sign that Ennis was starting to think of himself as one half of a *couple*. Most likely, it was  un-concious on his part, but he knew he always got a smile from Jack. Jack was great at reading these little subtlies in Ennis and responded in kind.

They slowly become drawn to each other  like magnets  in a mental sense.and start to realize that their friendship is moving past mere companionship into something knowing, unspoken and indescribable. Ennis falls in love with Jack , longs for his presence while carving the horse and while washing the coffee pot. He finds these long repressed feelings are still present and a bigger part of him than he ever dreamed. Only now on isolated Brokeback Mt., he feels safe enough to let them surface. My opinion.

[athena0204]

But Jack was a man. Another man beame Ennis's focal point despite his homophobic teachings. . Jack was friend, companion, and lover for Ennis .   I feel as a child there was much fear of his father. His father's words and actions. He also had a mother who apparently loved and cared for him and was a source of comfort so he had somewhat of another side  , some one other than the one who hated was present in the home. Some one who sang lullabys and made him feel loved. With repressed feelings , as a pre-teen, certainly he sought friendship and copanionship as we all do. the wish to belong to a group with similar social interests. But there was always Earl to remind him that in his culture , these feelings were not only unacceptable, but dangerous. He doe'snt quite fit in with what was expected of him so he becomes withdrawn. He can successfully repress his feelings, but he is also aware that they exist, but buried deep down inside with the fear and shame. It must remain a secret or he'd be dead.
 
 I think when he met Jack it was only then, he was shown that he need'nt fear or be ashamed of what he felt. It was jack who engaged Ennis and drew him out of his self -imposed shell. It allowed Ennis to just be Ennis first without judgements., before anything romantically could be realized.  Then something began to happen.  Jack finds Ennis not only has a personality, but also a  sense of humor. The harmonica jokes, a cute way  of Ennis  flirting, a sure sign that Ennis was starting to think of himself as one half of a *couple*. Most likely, it was  un-concious on his part, but he knew he always got a smile from Jack. Jack was great at reading these little subtlies in Ennis and responded in kind.

They slowly become drawn to each other  like magnets  in a mental sense.and start to realize that their friendship is moving past mere companionship into something knowing, unspoken and indescribable. Ennis falls in love with Jack , longs for his presence while carving the horse and while washing the coffee pot. He finds these long repressed feelings are still present and a bigger part of him than he ever dreamed. Only now on isolated Brokeback Mt., he feels safe enough to let them surface. My opinion.

Yeah, I agree. When society was taken out of the picture, Ennis was free to be who he truly was. As long as he was in front of society, he felt immense fear and felt he had to pretend to be something he wasn't. But when he was alone with Jack...he could just let go and be himself.

[lancecowboy]

Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:

Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.

Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.

As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.

However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."

Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.

Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.

It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.

[Asali]

Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:

Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.

Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.

As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.

However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."

Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.
Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.

It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.

Absolutely love this post, totally agree.