Author Topic: was ennis gay ?  (Read 664424 times)

babytammy7

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #690 on: Apr 04, 2008, 01:20 PM »
Justin, Ennis' brother was KE Del Mar. That is in the SS, but I read in some place I don't remember that his name was Keeran or Kieran Ennis Del Mar!!!  ^f^

babytammy7

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #691 on: Apr 04, 2008, 01:29 PM »
Uh Justin, btw, I don't think KE thought that Ennis was gay. I mean at 9 Ennis could be sweet, loving, shy, tender, delicate, all things that some homophobic adult would use to say that one person is gay; but Ennis was only 9, he was only a child, and a child being loving, shy and kind is something normal, frequent and many people have children like those!!! I don't think you can see a child at 9 and say if he is gay!!!

And when Ennis got older there was no possibility for KE to think that his brother was gay, because Ennis was very masculine, strong, rough and very tough, you know. In fact Heath Ledger (rest in peace) said that it was the most masculine role he ever played!!! Watching someone like Ennis you can't tell if he is gay. I mean, I'm sure that in those times ignorant people thought that gays were all queers, but queers like a queens, if you know what a mean, imagining them like a very feminine people. Wrong, but maybe KE thought that and seeing Ennis he couldn't tell that his brother was like that. Just my humble opinion.  ^f^

babytammy7

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #692 on: Apr 04, 2008, 01:58 PM »
Oh well, sorry, It's me again. Just one more thing. This is to Andrew, Athena and Justin who said things about this.

I don't know anything about if you born gay or not. I have a friend who loved women, he was crazy about them and he was about marry, but his girl quit and he got depressed. One friend of him tried to comfort him and some night when they were so tired because they drank a lot, that boy kissed my friend. My friend didn't try to punch him or so. He was so hurting and sad and alone and hungry for love again that he decided to let his friend to love him. Well, it's been 6 years now and they are together. But he said to me that he never had thought about men before, and believe me he was not homophobic and he was not afraid of tire irons; he just didn't felt "that" before.
And well, here in the forum there is a beautiful woman with a big heart who was married, HAPPILY married, for many years. She met another woman and they start a deep friendship. Her friend was married too and she was happy too. They were friends for years, and they never wanted to have sex or something like that, but they needed to be with each other so much. Their husbands understood that and saw that friendship like something marvelous. But one day when they were alone they both hold their hands while they were talking and suddenly they kissed. Well, it's how all that started. They divorced and they are living together. They are so wonderful. They have never thought about women before, and they like/love/adore men right now.

So what I'm trying to say is that there are so many people out there who don't see themselves like bi or gay and they have a gay relationship. And even I have gay friends who never knew that they were gay till someone came along.
I read in some newspaper that we are supposed to born bi, but later our mind decides or something like that. I mean, there are many people who thinks at 13 that they adore men/or women and at 23 they love the contrary. Oh my, just rambling!! Sorry. It's just that I DON’T know anything about gay things but I want to learn, and I just curious about that born gay thing, because here in my country had a controversial because a radical right wing party said that gay people born gay so it is like a genetic disease (sorry, they are not my words), and the gay community in my city defended homosexuality saying that they were not born gay, but they choose; they choose to be gay and they choose who to like and who to love, men or women.

I'm not saying that it's true and this is not my personal opinion. I'm asking here. What do you think? Why gay people here said that?

This is so OT, so if moderators want to kick my ass, go a head!!!     ^f^
« Last Edit: Apr 05, 2008, 03:54 PM by Baby Tammy »

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #693 on: Apr 04, 2008, 02:51 PM »
Uh Justin, btw, I don't think KE thought that Ennis was gay. I mean at 9 Ennis could be sweet, loving, shy, tender, delicate, all things that some homophobic adult would use to say that one person is gay; but Ennis was only 9, he was only a child, and a child being loving, shy and kind is something normal, frequent and many people have children like those!!! I don't think you can see a child at 9 and say if he is gay!!!

And when Ennis got older there was no possibility for KE to think that his brother was gay, because Ennis was very masculine, strong, rough and very tough, you know. In fact Heath Ledger (rest in peace) said that it was the most masculine role he ever played!!! Watching someone like Ennis you can't tell if he is gay. I mean, I'm sure that in those times ignorant people thought that gays were all queers, but queers like a queens, if you know what a mean, imagining them like a very feminine people. Wrong, but maybe KE thought that and seeing Ennis he couldn't tell that his brother was like that. Just my humble opinion.  ^f^

Tammy :)
It's just speculation. Thanks for your opinion. The idea isn't that the brother thought his brother was gay at 9. It's about seeing Ennis as is, as an adult, and suspecting his persona was possibly a cover for homosexuality. Ennis brother was possibly able to recall the growing process, or the lack of it, he endured himself and then applied the same logic to Ennis. Maybe he could see the marriage as a cover. Maybe he sees it as completely genuine and pure.
I'm not saying one way or another. It's good to know you think it unbelievable and impossible. I have been wanting others' input. :)
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #694 on: Apr 04, 2008, 02:51 PM »
Justin, Ennis' brother was KE Del Mar. That is in the SS, but I read in some place I don't remember that his name was Keeran or Kieran Ennis Del Mar!!!  ^f^

Why thank you.  ^f^
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #695 on: Apr 04, 2008, 02:52 PM »
Del Mar.

Sorry, it's been a long day.  ;D  ;D  ;D


 :*(

Now I want Taco Del Mar.  :d)

 :cr) to a mutually long day. :P
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Offline Asali

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #696 on: Apr 04, 2008, 06:42 PM »
This is so OT, so if moderators want to kick my us, go a head!!!     ^f^
It seems to be OT but I like the direction it's going and very civilly atm I must say. As we will never know the answer to the question I feel that in this topic our OT discussion is important in trying to figure out the answer.
Tammy thankyou for a great post and I feel that what you said is very much 'that switch' we were discussing in the previous posts.  O0
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athena0204

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #697 on: Apr 04, 2008, 07:52 PM »
Oh well, sorry, It's me again. Just one more thing. This is to Andrew, Athena and Justin who said things about this.

I don't know anything about if you born gay or not. I have a friend how loved women, he was crazy about them and he was about marry, but his girl quit and he got depressed. One friend of him tried to comfort him and some night when they were so tired because they drank a lot, that boy kissed my friend. My friend didn't try to punch him or so. He was so hurting and sad and alone and hungry for love again that he decided to let his friend to love him. Well, it's been 6 years now and they are together. But he said to me that he never had thought about men before, and believe me he was not homophobic and he was not afraid of tire irons; he just didn't felt "that" before.
And well, here in the forum there is a beautiful woman with a big heart who was married, HAPPILY married, for many years. She met another woman and they start a deep friendship. Her friend was married too and she was happy too. They were friends for years, and they never wanted to have sex or something like that, but they needed to be with each other so much. Their husbands understood that and saw that friendship like something marvelous. But one day when they were alone they both hold their hands while they were talking and suddenly they kissed. Well, it's how all that started. They divorced and they are living together. They are so wonderful. They have never thought about women before, and they like/love/adore men right now.

So what I'm trying to say is that there are so many people out there who don't see themselves like bi or gay and they have a gay relationship. And even I have gay friends who never knew that they were gay till someone came along.
I read in some newspaper that we are supposed to born bi, but later our mind decides or something like that. I mean, there are many people who thinks at 13 that they adore men/or women and at 23 they love the contrary. Oh my, just rambling!! Sorry. It's just that I DON’T know anything about gay things but I want to learn, and I just curious about that born gay thing, because here in my country had a controversial because a radical right wing party said that gay people born gay so it is like a genetic disease (sorry, they are not my words), and the gay community in my city defended homosexuality saying that they were not born gay, but they choose; they choose to be gay and they choose who to like and who to love, men or women.

I'm not saying that it's true and this is not my personal opinion. I'm asking here. What do you think? Why gay people here said that?

This is so OT, so if moderators want to kick my us, go a head!!!     ^f^

Hmmm, you know that is quite interesting, and I find it quite surprising. Because the right-wingers here in the U.S. have always condemned homosexuality by saying that people have control over whether they are gay or not, and that people choose to be gay, while people for gay rights have said that people can't choose to be gay, it's just the way they are. I see that in Spain it's the opposite, from what you're saying. Isn't it interesting that the same argument can be used in different countries to mean different things? As for the other things you said...I've also heard the theory that people are born bisexual...but then I heard about a lot of people who are gay saying from the time they were only five years old, they knew they had attractions they couldn't explain...what I really believe is that certain people are inclined to be gay, while others are inclined to be straight. I don't think any person or anything can make a person gay if they aren't or straight if they aren't. And I truly think Ennis knew he was attracted to other guys from the time he was a teenager, but of course kept it hidden and repressed, until he met Jack. Had he never met Jack, I don't think he would have ever had a romantic relationship with another man...this doesn't change who Ennis really was, and who he really felt attraction for, of course, but he would have kept those feelings hidden for his whole life if he hadn't met Jack...or someone exactly like Jack...which of course isn't likely to happen. Because there was no one exactly like Jack F-in Twist.  ;)

Offline Asali

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #698 on: Apr 04, 2008, 07:55 PM »
And I truly think Ennis knew he was attracted to other guys from the time he was a teenager, but of course kept it hidden and repressed, until he met Jack. Had he never met Jack, I don't think he would have ever had a romantic relationship with another man...this doesn't change who Ennis really was, and who he really felt attraction for, of course, but he would have kept those feelings hidden for his whole life if he hadn't met Jack...or someone exactly like Jack...which of course isn't likely to happen. Because there was no one exactly like Jack F-in Twist.  ;)
Yep  O0
"People's minds are like parachutes. To function properly they must first be open." - W.G.P.

It use to feel like a mass of dots. But more and more these days, I feel like we're all connected. (Latter Days)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #699 on: Apr 04, 2008, 10:29 PM »
Del Mar.

Sorry, it's been a long day.  ;D  ;D  ;D


 :8   :8  :8

But, I got curious, and went back to the short story. It's K.E. Del Mar.  :c)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #700 on: Apr 04, 2008, 10:44 PM »
Hmmm, you know that is quite interesting, and I find it quite surprising. Because the right-wingers here in the U.S. have always condemned homosexuality by saying that people have control over whether they are gay or not, and that people choose to be gay, while people for gay rights have said that people can't choose to be gay, it's just the way they are. I see that in Spain it's the opposite, from what you're saying. Isn't it interesting that the same argument can be used in different countries to mean different things? As for the other things you said...I've also heard the theory that people are born bisexual...but then I heard about a lot of people who are gay saying from the time they were only five years old, they knew they had attractions they couldn't explain...what I really believe is that certain people are inclined to be gay, while others are inclined to be straight. I don't think any person or anything can make a person gay if they aren't or straight if they aren't. And I truly think Ennis knew he was attracted to other guys from the time he was a teenager, but of course kept it hidden and repressed, until he met Jack. Had he never met Jack, I don't think he would have ever had a romantic relationship with another man...this doesn't change who Ennis really was, and who he really felt attraction for, of course, but he would have kept those feelings hidden for his whole life if he hadn't met Jack...or someone exactly like Jack...which of course isn't likely to happen. Because there was no one exactly like Jack F-in Twist.  ;)

Hmmm... :s)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you misinterpreted what Tammy posted. I don't see the people in her post having a choice. Their love for each other happened. Love found them. They did NOT go out looking for it. They did NOT make a conscious choice.

The problem with political arguments about sexuality is that it is wrong from the beginning assumption. Sexuality is a private business that should remain private. Each individual must be free to be whoever he or she happens to be. What business is it for anyone else? We all assume that people are gay or straight or born this way or made a conscious choice, when in fact, in my humble opinion, there are as many different cases as there are individuals. Yes, naturally there are a majority of "average" person of gay or straight or bi or whatever, but no one fits into a stereotype, especially when it comes to coming of age. Who is to say the timing of becoming sexually aware, of becoming aware of ones own attraction is more than friendship, more than companionship?

Even after he and Jack spent a summer together, and they met in the reunion, Ennis in the short story said that he had no attraction to any other guy, just Jack. We can either accept that as true to Ennis' character, or we can assume he lied.

I think we should respect Annie's decision to put those words into the story. We are free to interpret the movie anyway we want, but I think we should also respect what other people's interpretation, most of all the people who wrote the story, the screenplay, and made the movie.

Just my own take on this topic.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #701 on: Apr 05, 2008, 03:59 AM »
Annie wrote things certain ways. Ang replicated some things exactly, and others not. He even added his own (or the screenwriters), and rendered many scenes both slightly and hugely interpretable. There's a reason there was a film made of the SS, I'm assuming. Truth is, if one person wants to entertain slightly different understandings of the story without sacrificing their personal perception of it, they can go from SS to film. It's probably easier to grasp than juggling the intricate motives of each process (SS, screenplay, film director, etc). Of course it varies, some want it all. Probably though, most want to rest with what they're closest to home with.
To me it seems befitting that Ang utilized the story's wide open emotional capacity to reach the wider audience of film goers rather than that of the book readers. And speaking on that sometimes too conventional yet universal plane, I trust that sexuality was made for intricate thinking but just wasn't born to resonate like the stark naked brilliance of true love. None of us is about to change our beliefs or whatever you want to say, of (homo)sexuality. Nonetheless, we can't ignore this part of the story. It plays its part, right? At least we know we have a place to go, and that we all respect each other's sex and sexuality however it's grown into/with us or vise versa.

I know I'm not alone here with the idea that, at the least, Ennis was granted an opportunity to love the best way he ever could, on Brokeback away from the clenches of hate; and I say that because everywhere but the mountain, hate in an instance stretched over the whole planet Ennis knew of. He had very little leeway, he was a small man in a sterdy cage. After departure, in the alley as he punches the wall, he is like a wild rat being fingered through the bars and scared of what was getting a hold of him.
Jack had put a hand on his inner self that summer, and every individual reacts and personally relates to that connection -- it's hard to break that bond.
There are times when it's hard to grasp the other viewer's perception, but more and more I can only be inspired by this. It's likewise to know that this provocative power exists in any piece of media or anything, ever. And to think ... some people only know this feeling through tangible substances like drugs for instance, or, strictly sex, guilty pleasures of a finite earth. But Brokeback represents what goes on forever, and I don't want to ever take it for granted.
At the "end", despite this, that and sexuality, Ennis just doesn't want to take love for granted, I swear.
 :ghug:

Well I'm not exactly beaming with relevance, so excuse me.  *o)-- Does anyone else wonder how Jack's scene in the bathroom with his father's spray of abuse would have played somewhere in the movie? Would Ang have been able to do this without taking away from the story, or would it fail the film?

As we all dive deeper into it, I have a difficult time ignoring my occasional scavenge hunt for missing scenes/elements.  >:(  :)
« Last Edit: Apr 05, 2008, 04:27 AM by orangetruck »
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Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #702 on: Apr 05, 2008, 07:37 AM »
well about the abuse in the bathroom i dont know if that could have fit in the film and if it did it would have to be jack telling it i mean it would be awful to shoot it as a scene showing the details but i dont think it was that neccisary to the film... any way this is  *o) so ill stop lol

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #703 on: Apr 05, 2008, 08:31 AM »
But, I got curious, and went back to the short story. It's K.E. Del Mar.  :c)

'Course I coulda' done that too, but was tryin' to be a smartass, and as whut usually happens, ended up bein' a dumbass.  ;)

But, since were goin' OT - Annie's so particular with her names. "K.E." really got me to wonderin' some time back - K.E. what the hey? There is a KayCee Wyoming over in Johnson County (north a Casper), but that don't seem right. There's a Deadhorse Road not far from there, still didn't seem to make sense. Any ideas? K.E. Kick Ennis, naw. If it don't mean nuthing, why'd she tell us? Not like her.

And just to keep OnTopic do you suppose one reason young Ennis "pasted" K.E. as per the SS was not only 'cause K.E. picked on him, but maybe Ennis felt "different" even then and was trying to work out his anger in a typical Ennis sort a' way?
:s)
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #704 on: Apr 05, 2008, 08:58 AM »
'Course I coulda' done that too, but was tryin' to be a smartass, and as whut usually happens, ended up bein' a dumbass.  ;)

But, since were goin' OT - Annie's so particular with her names. "K.E." really got me to wonderin' some time back - K.E. what the hey? There is a KayCee Wyoming over in Johnson County (north a Casper), but that don't seem right. There's a Deadhorse Road not far from there, still didn't seem to make sense. Any ideas? K.E. Kick Ennis, naw. If it don't mean nuthing, why'd she tell us? Not like her.

And just to keep OnTopic do you suppose one reason young Ennis "pasted" K.E. as per the SS was not only 'cause K.E. picked on him, but maybe Ennis felt "different" even then and was trying to work out his anger in a typical Ennis sort a' way?
:s)

 ;D I love your whole post, putting everything into perspective.  :t)

I guess we will just have to ask Annie, if we ever get the opportunity. I am sure she had some reason for using K.E. Kick Ennis sounds a bit too much, but I can hear KE taunting Ennis with it when they were young.

The short story says Ennis pasted KE because he told his dad about the bullying and his dad told him to take care of his own problem. And Ennis idolized his dad, so he did what he was told, and he did it good, like he does everything. He pasted KE good, every chance he got until the bully stopped.

To bring us back on topic, I'd say his childhood doesn't have any indication that he is gay or anything. Some people's sexuality is simply later to develop than others. Everyone has their own schedule. For Ennis, the guy who can be happy with a couple of high attitude f@#$s a few times a year, I'd say his sexuality is deep undercover, and probably never bloomed till SNIT. It's why he sat by the fire for so long. It took him a long time to find it, while sober. But once found, his passion was intense by comparison.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #705 on: Apr 05, 2008, 09:13 AM »
. . . I'd say his sexuality is deep undercover . . . It took him a long time to find it, . . . But once found, his passion was intense by comparison.

You Bet. As they say "Still waters run deep".

This seems a perfect description of Ennis del Mar.
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #706 on: Apr 05, 2008, 09:17 AM »
You Bet. As they say "Still waters run deep".

This seems a perfect description of Ennis del Mar.

I think it's one of the reasons why Jack loves him. He is full of delightful surprises, like the reunion kiss, the intensity of SNIT, the joy of jumping down those stairs, the dozy embrace.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #707 on: Apr 05, 2008, 09:26 AM »
I think it's one of the reasons why Jack loves him. He is full of delightful surprises, like the reunion kiss, the intensity of SNIT, the joy of jumping down those stairs, the dozy embrace.
hmmm :)

athena0204

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #708 on: Apr 05, 2008, 01:49 PM »
Hmmm... :s)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you misinterpreted what Tammy posted. I don't see the people in her post having a choice. Their love for each other happened. Love found them. They did NOT go out looking for it. They did NOT make a conscious choice.

The problem with political arguments about sexuality is that it is wrong from the beginning assumption. Sexuality is a private business that should remain private. Each individual must be free to be whoever he or she happens to be. What business is it for anyone else? We all assume that people are gay or straight or born this way or made a conscious choice, when in fact, in my humble opinion, there are as many different cases as there are individuals. Yes, naturally there are a majority of "average" person of gay or straight or bi or whatever, but no one fits into a stereotype, especially when it comes to coming of age. Who is to say the timing of becoming sexually aware, of becoming aware of ones own attraction is more than friendship, more than companionship?

Even after he and Jack spent a summer together, and they met in the reunion, Ennis in the short story said that he had no attraction to any other guy, just Jack. We can either accept that as true to Ennis' character, or we can assume he lied.

I think we should respect Annie's decision to put those words into the story. We are free to interpret the movie anyway we want, but I think we should also respect what other people's interpretation, most of all the people who wrote the story, the screenplay, and made the movie.

Just my own take on this topic.

Ummm...you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't misinterpret Tammy's post. I didn't say that people go out choosing to be gay or choosing who they love. I believe that love finds people rather than people finding love. The summer of '63, neither Jack nor Ennis were expecting to find true love...but as destiny would have it, they met and true love found them. True love does indeed happen when people least expect it. What I said was how right-wingers here have always said homosexuality is a choice, and have used that argument to condemn it. She said that those same people use a different argument against homosexuality in her country. So I was just comparing and contrasting the anti-homosexual arguments in different countries.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #709 on: Apr 05, 2008, 03:31 PM »
well about the abuse in the bathroom i dont know if that could have fit in the film and if it did it would have to be jack telling it i mean it would be awful to shoot it as a scene showing the details but i dont think it was that neccisary to the film... any way this is  *o) so ill stop lol



.... But it'd be interesting to see how Ang would place it, like he might have placed the other intimate scenes. Looking at the film as it is, yeah of course it wasn't exactly necessary.  :)



And just to keep OnTopic do you suppose one reason young Ennis "pasted" K.E. as per the SS was not only 'cause K.E. picked on him, but maybe Ennis felt "different" even then and was trying to work out his anger in a typical Ennis sort a' way?
:s)

Maybe he did, which makes me consider how sexuality may not so much (fully) develop until later but nonetheless, its seed is planted with birth. We simply don't all grow or conceptualize things at the same rate. And circumstance, instances and experience can stimulate one's maturity. Just like how a person goes through time and/or therapy to bring past angst into a state of manageability, it might take a certain person or the right timing for one to accept their own sexuality. In that respect, it may have taken the whole affair. At the end, when the object of Ennis' love and sex was gone, he finally resigned from the priority of denial. Although the power was in the tragic loss of pure love, to the extent of sexual acceptance it was with a man Ennis found the greatest of connections; he could no longer deny the final product that he'd been forced to fear the most. So vulnerable to this ludicrous growth spurt of his following the loss of Jack, denial finally misses the curve and crashes. It's not "I ain't queer" or "work's about all I got time for". It's "Jack, I swear.."

Ranging from the beginning of his life to the end of his Affair with Jack, Ennis' sexuality endures several stages of development, like a psychiatrist's client who finally realizes they can't run from their past and stops. It's Ennis we're talkin' about however, and he couldn't afford a Psychiatrist's 20 year bill. So it was Jack that had come along, and he didn't cost Ennis any money.  :\'(

-- My personal opinion still being that you're born to love a certain way, an individual way. One may trip over the other seeds, but they aren't going no where. Let it be.
« Last Edit: Apr 05, 2008, 04:37 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

manhattangirl

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #710 on: Apr 05, 2008, 03:39 PM »


.... But it'd be interesting to see how Ang would place it, like he might have placed the other intimate scenes. Looking at the film as it is, yeah of course it wasn't exactly necessary.  :)

Would you think he might have put in the "Water Walking Jesus" scene, Jack comparing his mother to his father?

Just a thought.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #711 on: Apr 05, 2008, 04:19 PM »
.... But it'd be interesting to see how Ang would place it, like he might have placed the other intimate scenes. Looking at the film as it is, yeah of course it wasn't exactly necessary.  :)

Not necessary, absolutely agreed. One of the pivotal features of this entire scene with Jack and his old man is the aspect of being, ahem. . . “clipped” to use Annie’s term. I’d always made the assumption (maybe incorrectly) but guessed anyway, that this discussion between Ennis and Jack, which is the way it presented in the SS as Ennis recollects it, that this discussion took place at a very intimate moment when certain, shall we say "equipment issues" were being compared by Ennis and Jack. Might have been a difficult, but nonetheless very interesting, scene of intimacy between the men. As I recall there’s no real indication when this discussion actually occurred other than it seems to have been after they were intimate.


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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #712 on: Apr 05, 2008, 04:31 PM »
Not necessary, absolutely agreed. One of the pivotal features of this entire scene with Jack and his old man is the aspect of being, ahem. . . “clipped” to use Annie’s term. I’d always made the assumption (maybe incorrectly) but guessed anyway, that this discussion between Ennis and Jack, which is the way it presented in the SS as Ennis recollects it, that this discussion took place at a very intimate moment when certain, shall we say "equipment issues" were being compared by Ennis and Jack. Might have been a difficult, but nonetheless very interesting, scene of intimacy between the men. As I recall there’s no real indication when this discussion actually occurred other than it seems to have been after they were intimate.




I find it enticing. And like many of the vacant intimate scenes, it probably would only dillute the artful poignance of their relationship, if not more. It might teeter the focus into a more vivid, casual state of sexuality, you think? And a big part of Brokeback is the reserved, complicated aspect of homosexuality. We're certainly not watching Queer as Folk here, which brings a tear of joy to my eye in any case.  ;D
Thanks for the input, jackster. The story does override the scene, no doubt. I agree, no matter how challenging it is for me to wear blinders to this exchange between them.  :*(
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #713 on: Apr 05, 2008, 06:40 PM »
Ummm...you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't misinterpret Tammy's post. I didn't say that people go out choosing to be gay or choosing who they love. I believe that love finds people rather than people finding love. The summer of '63, neither Jack nor Ennis were expecting to find true love...but as destiny would have it, they met and true love found them. True love does indeed happen when people least expect it. What I said was how right-wingers here have always said homosexuality is a choice, and have used that argument to condemn it. She said that those same people use a different argument against homosexuality in her country. So I was just comparing and contrasting the anti-homosexual arguments in different countries.

Thank you for the clarification. I always thought the right-wingers thinking a little unreal. Being gay in a repressive society, is such a horrible experience growing up, that no sane person would CHOOSE to be gay. It is why teenage suicide among gays is much higher than among straights. Now that the new attitude about gays is prevalent in western society, and perhaps around the world eventually, I hope Heath can be proud to be in a movie that perhaps changed a few minds, and saved a few lives.

Thanks again for your clarification. It is so easy to be misunderstood in cyberspace. Actually, it is easy to be understood in real life, too.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #714 on: Apr 05, 2008, 06:59 PM »
. .  a big part of Brokeback is the reserved, complicated aspect of homosexuality.

Yup. One of the magic wonders of the film is how the movie itself takes on the actual personality of Ennis, but so subtlety you don't see it. Genius.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #715 on: Apr 06, 2008, 12:29 AM »
Not necessary, absolutely agreed. One of the pivotal features of this entire scene with Jack and his old man is the aspect of being, ahem. . . “clipped” to use Annie’s term. I’d always made the assumption (maybe incorrectly) but guessed anyway, that this discussion between Ennis and Jack, which is the way it presented in the SS as Ennis recollects it, that this discussion took place at a very intimate moment when certain, shall we say "equipment issues" were being compared by Ennis and Jack. Might have been a difficult, but nonetheless very interesting, scene of intimacy between the men. As I recall there’s no real indication when this discussion actually occurred other than it seems to have been after they were intimate.

I had to look it up in the short story. Ennis recalled the bathroom scene right after Old man Twist told him about Randall, after Jack's Ma invited him to go upstairs to Jack's room. The short story did not say when Jack told the story to Ennis, but it would be reasonable to think that it was an intimate moment, either relating to each other about their "equipment" or when they were relating to each other about their fathers.

I think the story is more an indictment against the old man Twist as a stud duck, a bully, than as a reflection of Jack. I think it is wise of Ang Lee or Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry or the producers to remove this scene from the movie, and replaced it with the infamous spit into the coffee cup. They serve the same purpose - the old man is a bullying boar. Unlike Ennis who idolized his father, Jack undoubtedly had a love-hate relationship, as any abused child would have.

Okay, before I get the angry OT sign, here is a question to bring it back on topic. Do you think the Earl scene and the bathroom scene are both pivotal moments that influenced Ennis and Jack respectively to be gay? Or, do you think they have no bearing on their gayness? In other words, do you think being gay is 100% genetic, or has some component of environmental influence? If so, the question, "was ennis gay" becomes "at what point, did ennis become gay"?

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #716 on: Apr 06, 2008, 07:20 AM »
I had to look it up in the short story. Ennis recalled the bathroom scene right after Old man Twist told him about Randall, after Jack's Ma invited him to go upstairs to Jack's room. The short story did not say when Jack told the story to Ennis, but it would be reasonable to think that it was an intimate moment, either relating to each other about their "equipment" or when they were relating to each other about their fathers.

I think the story is more an indictment against the old man Twist as a stud duck, a bully, than as a reflection of Jack. I think it is wise of Ang Lee or Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry or the producers to remove this scene from the movie, and replaced it with the infamous spit into the coffee cup. They serve the same purpose - the old man is a bullying boar. Unlike Ennis who idolized his father, Jack undoubtedly had a love-hate relationship, as any abused child would have.

Okay, before I get the angry OT sign, here is a question to bring it back on topic. Do you think the Earl scene and the bathroom scene are both pivotal moments that influenced Ennis and Jack respectively to be gay? Or, do you think they have no bearing on their gayness? In other words, do you think being gay is 100% genetic, or has some component of environmental influence? If so, the question, "was ennis gay" becomes "at what point, did ennis become gay"?


well i read somewhere something that said being gay can be caused by things such as abscene of a male role model (father) or other problems with a male role model so maybe the earl scene and the bathroom scene if following this theory could have contributed to jack and ennis being gay and also maybe ennis being picked on by his older brother K.E could have also contributed. personally i didnt beleive this theory when i read it (it was actually something about how some scientists thought hitler was gay and in denial hence his hate) well to be honset i never beleived the theory i always assumed homosexuals where born homosexual. but i suppose many people on this firum are more qualified to explain this to me then vice versa.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #717 on: Apr 06, 2008, 07:29 AM »
well i read somewhere something that said being gay can be caused by things such as abscene of a male role model (father) or other problems with a male role model so maybe the earl scene and the bathroom scene if following this theory could have contributed to jack and ennis being gay and also maybe ennis being picked on by his older brother K.E could have also contributed. personally i didnt beleive this theory when i read it (it was actually something about how some scientists thought hitler was gay and in denial hence his hate) well to be honset i never beleived the theory i always assumed homosexuals where born homosexual. but i suppose many people on this firum are more qualified to explain this to me then vice versa.

We talk of being gay as if it is a singular phenomenon. I personally believe that it is more complex that a person's orientation. The orientation is merely the surface manifestation of much deeper and more complex interactions between genetics, brain chemistry during childhood development, and social/emotional environmental events during adolescent development. It is not a single gene, or a single event, or a single biochemical pattern, but a number of different factors, each independently or together causing the result.

Just my own un-qualified opinion.

The genetic, biochemical components may lead to a predisposition to being gay, but other factors trigger the orientation, whether at birth, in childhood, or later in life, depends on the individual. There may be rule-of-thumb generalizations, but there are always individual exceptions.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #718 on: Apr 06, 2008, 08:00 AM »
. . . Do you think the Earl scene and the bathroom scene are both pivotal moments that influenced Ennis and Jack respectively to be gay?


Well cowboy, you put this bait out there, so I'm stupid enough to take it . . . “Pivotal”? nah, helpful? possibly. If indeed either were gay, would they have had these feelings without these events, you bet. Seems we have some vague ideas of who is (and who isn’t) a homo and therefore have some farfetched ideas of why they are a homo. My take is we don’t really have any better idea than why some folks like chocolate cake, some like oysters, and some actually like haggis. If we’re ever able to figure that out then maybe we can start thinkin’ about tryin’ to ‘splain the reasons behind human sexual tendencies. JMHO
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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #719 on: Apr 06, 2008, 08:23 AM »
Well cowboy, you put this bait out there, so I'm stupid enough to take it . . . “Pivotal”? nah, helpful? possibly. If indeed either were gay, would they have had these feelings without these events, you bet. Seems we have some vague ideas of who is (and who isn’t) a homo and therefore have some farfetched ideas of why they are a homo. My take is we don’t really have any better idea than why some folks like chocolate cake, some like oysters, and some actually like haggis. If we’re ever able to figure that out then maybe we can start thinkin’ about tryin’ to ‘splain the reasons behind human sexual tendencies. JMHO

So I can't use the excuse my mom drop me on my head when I was a baby? Darn!!!

Seriously I agree with Jackster, its one them mysteries of life,  I'm just trying not to let life past me by thinking about it.   JMHO.