Topic: was ennis gay ?

[babytammy7]

I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this  thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of  Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an  uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.

Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise  to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first.  Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.

This is just beautiful, AF, and I totally agree with all my heart. Wow, you have moved me here. 

[Asali]

I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this  thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of  Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an  uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.

Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise  to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first.  Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.

So well said and I feel no one can or ever will be able to explain the unexplainable.

[tpe]

I really like Jake's response. That was very well said. I love how he (sub)consciously buried just about every superficial mark leading up to fact that love is a force of nature. His mind fits beautifully in such handsome landscape. 

Thanks orangetruck.  For me, the greatest beauty about Jake's response is the uncertainty.  He knows that ordinary words and concepts struggle to encapsulate a complex reality.

[Brokeback adoration]

Welcome, Brokeback adoration.

As you can see by the length opf this thread, the answer is far from clear-cut -- at least for those of us here.  I hold a different opinion, in fact.  But I do acknowledge that all this is open to interpretation.  Even Jake was not perfectly clear-cut in his response.  As I had posted elsewhere, here is the relevant passage once more:

AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?

Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”

Thanks!

And thank you for bringing that quote - I think Jake is describing it all in a really amazing way.
I guess I got very inspired by that “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.”
There is a lot of interesting insights in Jake's quotes, I think.
And I do have to say that after reading the book (I got it from some of you very nice people in here  ) I actually did change my opinion on many things about the story and movie. Many things are, in some ways, more clear to me now.

(and I'm sorry, that my English isn't that good  )

[Brokeback adoration]

A big welcome, brokeback adoration!  I'm hoping you can get a copy of the book, and you will have even deeper feelings for this story.

kathy

Thanks Kathy.
I did get a copy of the book, and it changed my sight on things. 

[Brokeback adoration]

I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this  thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of  Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an  uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.

Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise  to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first.  Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.

That's really well said. 
Like the part of Jake's quote, I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved. It is a great point of view.

[tpe]

Thanks!

And thank you for bringing that quote - I think Jake is describing it all in a really amazing way.
I guess I got very inspired by that “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.”
There is a lot of interesting insights in Jake's quotes, I think.
And I do have to say that after reading the book (I got it from some of you very nice people in here  ) I actually did change my opinion on many things about the story and movie. Many things are, in some ways, more clear to me now.

(and I'm sorry, that my English isn't that good  )

IO think that, above all, it was a very honest, unnuanced response.  Nothing cerebral -- just plain gut feeling.  Once can't argue with a gut feeling.  It is visceral -- with no need for logical underpinnings.


I do think that the book and the film complement each other nicely.  They are not perfectly alike -- but that is their mutual strength.

Your english is very good.

 

[lancecowboy]

I just came across Lee Harris' essay on Brokeback Mountain, from BBBoy's post back in 2006. It is beautifully written: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011606D

And it's worth quoting the last three paragraphs:

There was no other outcome to the story that was possible. To try to turn Brokeback Mountain into a "gay polemic" is not only to insult the human dignity of the imaginary characters of Jack and Ennis; it is to insult the dignity of all those men who have tried to rebel, as Jack and Ennis did, against the dehumanizing effects of those two words "homosexual" and "heterosexual" -- words that, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, did not even exist in the English language before 1900, but which now hang heavily and oppressively over all of us.

The French philosopher Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, argued that we live not in an age of sexual liberation, but in an age of sexual repression -- a subtle form of repression, however, in that it works by forcing us to define our identity in terms of a preexisting conceptual system that has been devised for us by the triumphant psychotherapeutic establishment. Thus, a boy growing up in America today must constantly be asking himself, "Am I a homosexual or am I a heterosexual" -- an interior interrogation that no boys have ever been forced to enact. Is this liberation? Or is it psychological oppression of a peculiarly insidious nature?

What the two cowboys of Brokeback Mountain were rebelling against was not being forced into normal marriage by society, but against being forced to define their humanity in accordance with other people's ideas of what they should call themselves. They simply wanted to be treated and looked upon like men -- not as queers or homosexuals or gays -- but simply men. That is what gives their story such poignancy and nobility. Had they been merely puppets in a gay polemic, then their love for one another would have lacked the tragic intensity that it possessed, and the movie itself would be stripped of its haunting grandeur. But Ennis and Jack were not puppets; they were real human beings caught in a tragic dilemma, and it is this that makes Brokeback Mountain a genuine work of art, and not a piece of propaganda, however well-intentioned.

Ennis and Jack were real human beings...I love that.

[Tony]

     Dear Andrew - that essay, above, is a gem, and critical to re-thinking the history of male/male relationships.  I'd quibble a little with the writer's saying, based on the Oxford dictionary, the words "homosexual" and "heterosexual" did not exist before 1900.  As best as I can tell, the first, homosexual, was beginning to be used by 1870, and may even have been invented so that Parliament could enact laws against gays. It was, by the way, the last constitutional crisis of the monarchy, as Queen Victoria refused to sign the bill, saying lesbians could not possibly exist.  It was discreetly amended, and she signed, which was the last time a monarch broke the constitutional understanding that had evolved. Sex between women continued legal, on the grounds that that didn't exist, anyway (it was either accepting that or arguing with an aging, grumpy queen).
  Even so, it is a direct hit, on target.  The definition, so technical, had never existed before.  Sodomites or "buggers" were mentioned, but this was believed to be optional  behavior.  With the invention of the word "homosexual", the iron curtain fell.  And we've been playing by those new rules ever since.  Brokeback Mountain, then, forced us to revisit what was there before the invention and strict application of....new words.
  By having Ennis and Jack having successful physical relations with women, and by their being fairly virile, we were tossed back into the world before the late 19th century.  And what have we done?  Followed the new rules.  Was Ennis....gay?
  Thanks, again, Andrew.  Although I had trouble with the dating of the mind-control revolution on this subject, I saw, for the first time, how it came to be.  You are VERY good at researching stuff.

[tpe]

I just came across Lee Harris' essay on Brokeback Mountain, from BBBoy's post back in 2006. It is beautifully written: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011606D

And it's worth quoting the last three paragraphs:

Ennis and Jack were real human beings...I love that.

But I don't agree with the statement that the terms "homosexual" or "heterosexual" are dehumanizing.  It is as dehumanizing as calling an American "Republican" or "Democrat", even though we all know that not all Republicans (and not all Democtrats) agree with each other on many issues.  So is it wrong to label someone "Republican" or "Democrat"?  Does it dehumanize the individual?  No.

[lancecowboy]

[...]  By having Ennis and Jack having successful physical relations with women, and by their being fairly virile, we were tossed back into the world before the late 19th century.  And what have we done?  Followed the new rules.  Was Ennis....gay?
  Thanks, again, Andrew.  Although I had trouble with the dating of the mind-control revolution on this subject, I saw, for the first time, how it came to be.  You are VERY good at researching stuff.

Thanks, Tony, but I cannot take the credit. The essay came from BBBoy. He posted it almost two years ago. I just came across it serendipitously, and the bloodhound that I am, can't let go of the "Was Ennis gay?" question. So here we are.

You, on the other hand, my friend, is an encyclopedia of information.

[lancecowboy]

But I don't agree with the statement that the terms "homosexual" or "heterosexual" are dehumanizing.  It is as dehumanizing as calling an American "Republican" or "Democrat", even though we all know that not all Republicans (and not all Democtrats) agree with each other on many issues.  So is it wrong to label someone "Republican" or "Democrat"?  Does it dehumanize the individual?  No.

Sorry, tpe, I did not want to start the labels debate again, just wanted to quote the last part of that essay, that Ennis and Jack were real human beings.

Neither you nor Tony commented on that, so I will come out and say my own punch line...they were fictional characters that became real.

And the reason, because they defy the labels...homosexual, heterosexual, Republican, Democrat,...all labels dehumanizes to the extent that they make the human being smaller to fit into the pigeonhole of that label, cutting away all the other meaningful parts, the relationships, the characters, the real part of the person.

Just my two cents worth, and I just love quoting that sentence...like Ang Lee said, it just rolls off the tongue so well...

Ennis and Jack are real human beings....

[tpe]

No problem lance.  I was just voicing my disagreement with the author cited, but I do understand the point of view. 

To the extent that you describe it here, labels are certainly "limiting".  But to limit is to define, and sometimes, we do need to define or to model, as is done is the sciences in all cases.  As in Physics: does it really matter whether an "atom" exists or not?  The answer is no -- but we define the concept of an atom anyway (even though it is only an approximate or paradigm of reality) because we can get so much good and so much power/understanding out of such a definition.

[smartestsonia]

I personally feel that Ennis was a bisexual...I mean he was attracted towards Jack but dint wana give in to it...jack is a Gay and expressive by nature.,..ennis was scared as to the killing he saw as a kid...even if he would be gay for sure he would have not expressed himself completely due to his fear...Although as he was on BrokeBack Mountain and no one could see them there and he was strongly attracted to Jack and comforted by him, they made love..
Now he did care for Alma and his kids too..I think that if Jack would not have come into his life them he would never express his Homosexual feelings at all....
so I feel that Jack is gay for sure as he even went to Mexico whenever he was lonely and as he dint get Ennis's love that often he filled that gap by going to Male Prostitutes...

[tpe]

Thanks for sharing this,  smartestsonia.  Bisexuality in Ennis is something that I think quite plausible, although I admit that I also think it was also plausible in the case of Jack.  The difference was that Ennis could deprive himself of one aspect of desire for long stretches, whereas Jack couldn't...

[Matt Nasty]

Thanks for sharing this,  smartestsonia.  Bisexuality in Ennis is something that I think quite plausible, although I admit that I also think it was also plausible in the case of Jack.  The difference was that Ennis could deprive himself of one aspect of desire for long stretches, whereas Jack couldn't...

ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...

p.s.
i forgot to mention one reason i tend to think of them as gay over other things is that annie proloux has said they are gay, well i know at least she has said that about ennis when she said he was both gay and homophobic, im not sure about jack... but surely the creator of the characters in effect is the characters therefor if proloux says ennis is gay, that should mean he is gay, right?

oh god ive jut waffled 

[myprivatejack]

I think the difficulty in defining Ennis properly is the same difficulty in defining human behaviour; mostly when the personality is as complex and deep as was his own.More than "putting a label" in this sense,I'd define them as some"more or less sexual persons",but not exactly bi,hetero or homo.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks for sharing this,  smartestsonia.  Bisexuality in Ennis is something that I think quite plausible, although I admit that I also think it was also plausible in the case of Jack.  The difference was that Ennis could deprive himself of one aspect of desire for long stretches, whereas Jack couldn't...

I agree tpe...However, Jack did want to stay with Ennis and wanted a life together...it did cross his mind....Ennis was too sacred for that...That is why Jack would be friendly with other men as that would give him temorary satisfaction...Ennis kept fighting with himself to resist those feelings....They both fought it in their own different ways throughout their lives...

[tpe]

ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...

p.s.
i forgot to mention one reason i tend to think of them as gay over other things is that annie proloux has said they are gay, well i know at least she has said that about ennis when she said he was both gay and homophobic, im not sure about jack... but surely the creator of the characters in effect is the characters therefor if proloux says ennis is gay, that should mean he is gay, right?

oh god ive jut waffled 

Matt like you, I also think that they were gay.  I did interpret Proulx's comments along the same lines, athough I readily admit that even these statements are open to interpretation.  So I guess my interpretations are -- in the end -- very personal ones.  They reflect more about who I am more than anything else...

[tpe]

I think the difficulty in defining Ennis properly is the same difficulty in defining human behaviour; mostly when the personality is as complex and deep as was his own.More than "putting a label" in this sense,I'd define them as some"more or less sexual persons",but not exactly bi,hetero or homo.

This is certainly valid, MPJ.  Sexuality is, in general, much more ambiguous than most people make it out to be, although I have no doubt that sexual preferences are more defined in a lot of people out there, whether straight or gay.

[tpe]

I agree tpe...However, Jack did want to stay with Ennis and wanted a life together...it did cross his mind....Ennis was too sacred for that...That is why Jack would be friendly with other men as that would give him temorary satisfaction...Ennis kept fighting with himself to resist those feelings....They both fought it in their own different ways throughout their lives...

I agree that BOTH of them fought it in their own way throughout their lives.  As you said, Jack responded to it by opening up to what he desired.  So to him, the fight was more about trying to get himself the life he wanted to lead -- in spite of all the odds stacked up against him.  In the case of Ennis, I agree that it was more an act of resistance, although I have no doubt that he desired as much as Jack...

 

[atalley]

I think they were both gay.  The difference...Jack knew it; Ennis did not (or would not admit it to himself).

[myprivatejack]

I think they were both gay.  The difference...Jack knew it; Ennis did not (or would not admit it to himself).

I agree ¡.But the difference I'd made is that Ennis wasn't so much aware of his own sexuality-and give it the label you want to...-than Jack was.

[Asali]

I agree ¡.But the difference I'd made is that Ennis wasn't so much aware of his own sexuality-and give it the label you want to...-than Jack was.

Yeah it was Jack that ignited this spark.

[myprivatejack]

Yeah it was Jack that ignited this spark.

Of course,he was...But I wonder if Ennis sooner or later would have had this spark burning not having met Jack.I've always thought that it was something that was hidden inside him,but perhaps the situation to go out never had been so clear as in BBM with Jack...

[lancecowboy]

I think the difficulty in defining Ennis properly is the same difficulty in defining human behaviour; mostly when the personality is as complex and deep as was his own.More than "putting a label" in this sense,I'd define them as some"more or less sexual persons",but not exactly bi,hetero or homo.

mpj, I am pretty sure Annie Proulx used almost the same words when answering that question in an interview. Labels are great defining simple things. But when simplistic labels are applied to complex phenomena, they are crude approximations at best, and out-right erroneous the rest of the time.

ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...

p.s.
i forgot to mention one reason i tend to think of them as gay over other things is that annie proloux has said they are gay, well i know at least she has said that about ennis when she said he was both gay and homophobic, im not sure about jack... but surely the creator of the characters in effect is the characters therefor if proloux says ennis is gay, that should mean he is gay, right?

oh god ive jut waffled 

Although I tend to agree that their sexuality were determined by genetic predisposition, I am also of the opinion that their expression of that sexuality can vary, depending on their personality. And as their personality evolve and change, so too, their expression of who they were. Ennis, in my opinion, was not gay before Brokeback Mountain. He would probably continue with Alma forever if he never met Jack. He may never find the love and passion that he shared with Jack, but I think he would have been happy and loving.

Meeting Jack changed him, forever, and he was gay coming down that Brokeback Mountain, sullen and angrey, confused and love-sick.

Jack was, of course, as Ang Lee said to Jake, the more gay of the two...which implies that Ennis was also gay, if at least a little...

So I guess I am waffling here too. But, this begs the question, how can a man be a little gay?

[Asali]

Of course,he was...But I wonder if Ennis sooner or later would have had this spark burning not having met Jack.I've always thought that it was something that was hidden inside him,but perhaps the situation to go out never had been so clear as in BBM with Jack...

Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations.

[lancecowboy]

Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations.

That's a good question. I have been wondering that myself. It started when I wondered how did Jack know that Ennis was the one, or did Jack know? What gave him the signals to throw caution to the wind, and risk everything in FNIT? Once it was over, even before SNIT, he seemed confident on the mountain, waiting for Ennis, and the subsequent "I ain't queer" conversation.

It would make more sense of his courage to go after Ennis, and his hope for twenty years. But why did he give up that spring, after their last meeting? Did he have doubt at that point? Did he meet someone else? Can the spark between them have died down with age and time? So many questions, so few answers.

With Ennis, I think it may be easier, because I doubt anyone else has exactly the right combination of everything to spark ignition in Ennis. So, without Jack, he'd be one of those people who live out their life of quiet desperation without ever knowing true love with passion, just loving relationships, and devoted friendships, like with Don Wroe, and his daughters.

[tpe]

Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations.

I tend to think that in many real life situations where people are "in the closet", a catalyst does come along where the person is impelled to respond to his or her true feelings.  What happens after that usually depends on the social support surrounding these individuals, or the lack thereof.  IN certain situaltions, it is quite traumatic, which even pushes them deeper into the closet.

In a way, Ennis was lucky.

 

[rimasworld]

That's a good question. I have been wondering that myself. It started when I wondered how did Jack know that Ennis was the one, or did Jack know? What gave him the signals to throw caution to the wind, and risk everything in FNIT? Once it was over, even before SNIT, he seemed confident on the mountain, waiting for Ennis, and the subsequent "I ain't queer" conversation.

It would make more sense of his courage to go after Ennis, and his hope for twenty years. But why did he give up that spring, after their last meeting? Did he have doubt at that point? Did he meet someone else? Can the spark between them have died down with age and time? So many questions, so few answers.

With Ennis, I think it may be easier, because I doubt anyone else has exactly the right combination of everything to spark ignition in Ennis. So, without Jack, he'd be one of those people who live out their life of quiet desperation without ever knowing true love with passion, just loving relationships, and devoted friendships, like with Don Wroe, and his daughters.

I don't think Jack gave up on Ennis, sometimes confrontations are necessary in a relationship especially for these two who didn't share a lot of their feelings with each other so there was miscommunication and that is always cause for some pent up bad feelings.  That aside, Jack's love for Ennis was too strong to give up on him, this was his soulmate, believe me you know when you have that, it is a feeling like no other. The storms are part of the sunshine, but you weather them through and it's worth it because you get so much back in return. Sure the sparks turn to smoldering embers with time, but the love remains and the devotion and caring for that other person becomes even stronger. And every so often, that little spark turns into a flame once again.