Topic: was ennis gay ?

[babytammy7]

I don't think Jack gave up on Ennis, sometimes confrontations are necessary in a relationship especially for these two who didn't share a lot of their feelings with each other so there was miscommunication and that is always cause for some pent up bad feelings.  That aside, Jack's love for Ennis was too strong to give up on him, this was his soulmate, believe me you know when you have that, it is a feeling like no other. The storms are part of the sunshine, but you weather them through and it's worth it because you get so much back in return. Sure the sparks turn to smoldering embers with time, but the love remains and the devotion and caring for that other person becomes even stronger. And every so often, that little spark turns into a flame once again.

I totally agree with you!! 

Andrew, of course Jack was with somebody else, Randall, and he talked about him to his parents. But it was because Jack was mad, hurting, desperate, a walking death man, without hopes and dreams. But I think he never never never gave up on Ennis. He didn't give up after their goodbye in Signal; he didn't give up after the divorce scene; he didn't give up when Ennis laughed at his proposal about moving to Texas. So, believe me, he didn't give up that last time either. You can see that he didn't destroy the shirts when he went to LF after that last confrontation; he didn't say to Lureen that BBM was not his favorite place no more and that he didn't want his ashes there.

I think Jack would have shown that November. I'm sure he wanted once to give up, but he simply could not. JMHO. Thank you. 

[tpe]

Well, I also think that Jack never stpped loving Ennis, and that Jack had always tried to accept who Ennis was deep down: a person very much conflicted in terms of identity and sexuality, but someone who can love deeply, if not perfectly.

[myprivatejack]

Well, I also think that Jack never stpped loving Ennis, and that Jack had always tried to accept who Ennis was deep down: a person very much conflicted in terms of identity and sexuality, but someone who can love deeply, if not perfectly.

That what loving someone is,no?.To try to accept them with their mistakes and faults,because they're also a part of this person who have arrived to love.And I think Jack knew perfectly well how much conflicted Ennis was,but also how much he was able to love.To love him.

[lancecowboy]

That what loving someone is,no?.To try to accept them with their mistakes and faults,because they're also a part of this person who have arrived to love.And I think Jack knew perfectly well how much conflicted Ennis was,but also how much he was able to love.To love him.

Yup. That's why some of the greatest tragic love stories come from people who cannot stop loving someone, even when they know the other person is bad or terrible in every way. In this sense, love is blind, as orangetruck posted in the What is love thread.

Jack loved Ennis, with all his faults. His confusion is minor compared to some of the more abusive, and villainous qualities of tragic love.

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ and lance.

If there is anything that transcended their faults, it was surely that love.  In the context of that love, the question of sexual orientation is not really that important.

[Asali]

Thanks MPJ and lance.

If there is anything that transcended their faults, it was surely that love.  In the context of that love, the question of sexual orientation is not really that important.

I totally agree with that.

[tpe]

I totally agree with that.

I think we call this love transcendent.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks MPJ and lance.

If there is anything that transcended their faults, it was surely that love.  In the context of that love, the question of sexual orientation is not really that important.

I totally agree with that.

I agree too¡ .   The most important thing is the magnitude of this love; labels are done for and to narrow-minded people.

[lancecowboy]

I think we call this love transcendent.

Hmmm may I quote you and Emerson, perhaps, Ennis was transcendental. His love for Jack was not about just the sex, if it were, in which case, he would be gay. But as you said, his love was transcendent, which makes him transcendental.

[tpe]

Hmmm may I quote you and Emerson, perhaps, Ennis was transcendental. His love for Jack was not about just the sex, if it were, in which case, he would be gay. But as you said, his love was transcendent, which makes him transcendental.

Hello lance!  Well, truthfull, gayness is not just about sex.  It is a whole world of feeling.  But I think I know what you mean.  It is certainly Emersonian!

[lancecowboy]

Hello lance!  Well, truthfull, gayness is not just about sex.  It is a whole world of feeling.  But I think I know what you mean.  It is certainly Emersonian!

Yup. That's for sure. Zach is gay not just because of the sex, but his feelings for Shaun.

Ennis, in that case, is gay...

but, perhaps, transcendentally gay because his love transcends life and death, perfection or faults, distance or time. It reaches back twenty years, across state lines and vast distances, even beyond the grave.

I guess, in a way, the same transcendental love is what brings us all here, holds us altogether, after all this time.

[tpe]

Yup. That's for sure. Zach is gay not just because of the sex, but his feelings for Shaun.

Ennis, in that case, is gay...

but, perhaps, transcendentally gay because his love transcends life and death, perfection or faults, distance or time. It reaches back twenty years, across state lines and vast distances, even beyond the grave.

I guess, in a way, the same transcendental love is what brings us all here, holds us altogether, after all this time.

Yes, to be sure.

[orangetruck]

I tend to think that in many real life situations where people are "in the closet", a catalyst does come along where the person is impelled to respond to his or her true feelings.  What happens after that usually depends on the social support surrounding these individuals, or the lack thereof.  IN certain situaltions, it is quite traumatic, which even pushes them deeper into the closet.

In a way, Ennis was lucky.

 

Eerily true. 

[tpe]

Eerily true. 

In a way, he might have realized how lucky he was with Jack, but his reluctance showed that he did not put great stock to Fortune. 

[orangetruck]

Historically and culturally,  the concepts of "gay" and "straight",  even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world.   Other societies recognise, or at least assume,  that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex.   And even in this society,  it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit.   The plot of BBM is genuine;  I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence.   Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality.  For Ennis,  there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men,  but not to women.   Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer".   So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity;  "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available),  but not make a habit of it thereafter.  I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow,  so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity.   I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short,  simple story.  Ennis is only human.

Happened into this and had to quote. Excellent. Thanks lachlan 

[Ranchand1]

      Just wanted to say...damn good post to quote. 

      From someone who's seen if the grass is greener from both sides of the fence.  Hates labels.  An doesn't fit naturally into any stereotype.  Here's to ya lachlan.

       Thanks for the quote OT.  Had completely missed this.

        Was Ennis gay?  SURE!  Maybe..  I don't know.

        In the Ennis way, he loved Jack.  An in the Ennis way, loved Alma.

[topoex]

      Just wanted to say...damn good post to quote. 

      From someone who's seen if the grass is greener from both sides of the fence.  Hates labels.  An doesn't fit naturally into any stereotype.  Here's to ya lachlan.

       Thanks for the quote OT.  Had completely missed this.

        Was Ennis gay?  SURE!  Maybe..  I don't know.

        In the Ennis way, he loved Jack.  An in the Ennis way, loved Alma.

i've been reading a lot of stuff in this forum, but i when i read this i couldn't help laugh.   ennis saying "i not queer", but what does that word mean to him?  it's like someone ask me here in this forum how out was i.  it's all in heart of the person who's being asked that question.  we don't know what ennis means by queer.   We label ourselves tops, bottoms, flaming, flamboyant, bears, cubs, being on the down low,  so many labels,  damn did i miss any?  it all comes down to how we see ourselves.     what would he say?   that he loved once, and his name was jack.  so i take ennis at his word he's not queer (whatever that means to him),  we only be guessing at the rest. 

[lancecowboy]

i've been reading a lot of stuff in this forum, but i when i read this i couldn't help laugh.   ennis saying "i not queer", but what does that word mean to him?  it's like someone ask me here in this forum how out was i.  it's all in heart of the person who's being asked that question.  we don't know what ennis means by queer.   We label ourselves tops, bottoms, flaming, flamboyant, bears, cubs, being on the down low,  so many labels,  damn did i miss any?  it all comes down to how we see ourselves.     what would he say?   that he loved once, and his name was jack.  so i take ennis at his word he's not queer (whatever that means to him),  we only be guessing at the rest. 

  topoex  beautifully said words of the heart. I am so glad you found your way to ennsjack.  I love that last phrase...we only be guessing at the rest...succinctly wrapping up Ennis in a nugget of bittersweet truth that's delicious and gut-wrenching. 

[orangetruck]

topoex  beautifully said words of the heart. I am so glad you found your way to ennsjack.  I love that last phrase...we only be guessing at the rest...succinctly wrapping up Ennis in a nugget of bittersweet truth that's delicious and gut-wrenching. 

Glad to know you've invited a friend to the forum, lc.

A good element of neutrality is like dairy in milk. Real.

Good luck in whatever you do, top. 

[lancecowboy]

Glad to know you've invited a friend to the forum, lc.

A good element of neutrality is like dairy in milk. Real.

Good luck in whatever you do, top. 

Not sure what you been putting in the milk, Justin.  Topoex found his way here, if I recall correctly, by searching on the web with a friend of his after watching Brokeback Mountain with his partner.

[orangetruck]

Not sure what you been putting in the milk, Justin.  Topoex found his way here, if I recall correctly, by searching on the web with a friend of his after watching Brokeback Mountain with his partner.

I mean a friend of the forum is a friend of the forum member. Yeah?

I think you recall correctly, too.

Neutrality, as I meant, is something you have welcomed into your perception of Brokeback Mountain. And I didn't know that about you before topoex's post here. That's all. Tongue and cheek.

The rest was lactose intolerant metaphor which you may as well ignore.

 

You make a good point, top. Thanks.

[lancecowboy]

  Let be, let be. 

[orangetruck]

Let be, let be. 

That's right.

Yeah, Ennis kinda did that too. But not by choice. 

[Godfather420]

I would have to say Ennis is gay. Growing up he was "scared straight". But in the woods where noone is looking anything goes. So, Off With His Pants!. lol. He even likes to take Alma from behind. You see him check out Jack as he rides away on his horse. He has just kept it bottled in for so long he's a natural when it comes to hiding it. therein lies the brilliant acting by Heath Ledger (R.I.P.).

[tpe]

I would have to say Ennis is gay. Growing up he was "scared straight". But in the woods where noone is looking anything goes. So, Off With His Pants!. lol. ...

   That's an interesting way of putting it, Godfather420. 

[myprivatejack]

I think that Ennis was simply a person whom his father's influences and the circumstances made him have a kind of hate-atraction relationship about homosexuality.It's a well-known fact that forbidding something without a reason produces a wish of knowing it better,as well as a rejection,in a strange mixture of feelings and sensations.Ennis was an homophobic man disguised of gay,disguised at its turn of straight.

[tpe]

I think that Ennis was simply a person whom his father's influences and the circumstances made him have a kind of hate-atraction relationship about homosexuality.It's a well-known fact that forbidding something without a reason produces a wish of knowing it better,as well as a rejection,in a strange mixture of feelings and sensations.Ennis was an homophobic man disguised of gay,disguised at its turn of straight.

Did the 9-year old Ennis have any conscious knowledge of his own sexual identity?  Frankly, I don't think so -- at least not consciously.  But the Earl and Rich expisode clearly embedded itself deeply in his psyche, and this would lead of conflict later on.

[vedrana]

Did the 9-year old Ennis have any conscious knowledge of his own sexual identity?  Frankly, I don't think so -- at least not consciously.  But the Earl and Rich expisode clearly embedded itself deeply in his psyche, and this would lead of conflict later on.

I don't think that Ennis was gay, but it is surprising how he knew what to do with Jack?! That means that knowledge about Earl and Rich gave that 9-year old a pretty good idea...

Btw, 9-year old can have conscious knowledge about his sexual identity. IMHO 

[tpe]

I don't think that Ennis was gay, but it is surprising how he knew what to do with Jack?! That means that knowledge about Earl and Rich gave that 9-year old a pretty good idea...

Btw, 9-year old can have conscious knowledge about his sexual identity. IMHO 

Maybe.  But it is hard to say.  How hid the 9-year old understand what his father was trying to point out?  He was assuming that Ennis would understand why Earl ended up this way -- a bit too much for a father to expect of a child, I think.

[vedrana]

Maybe.  But it is hard to say.  How hid the 9-year old understand what his father was trying to point out?  He was assuming that Ennis would understand why Earl ended up this way -- a bit too much for a father to expect of a child, I think.

That's true. But children do understand much more that we can imagine - in their own way. and the explanation about that awful scene that Ennis gave to Jack showed pretty much clear that Ennis was aware of everything, ,maybe even too aware, coz it formed a lifetime fear in him.
On the other hand gave him a strong awareness what "queerness" is all about, which other young man in 60' maybe wouldn't know...